***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]

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DallasAg 94
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TRM
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Comeby!
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Touchless said:

GAC06 said:

This is a TOW, which is a heavier missile, but the result is the same. Hit the ammunition and/or fuel inside, and the tank goes pop and the crew is mist.


I know absolutely nothing on how this stuff works, but a missle that is flying above a tank and then blowing it up is mind boggling to me. It doesn't even hit the tank. It just explodes when it's directly over the object it wants to blow up and somehow the explosive gets all of the energy and force going directly down onto the tank. Like, what? How? Crazy technology to me.


Username does not check out.
Ag In Ok
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TRM said:




One of their few economic weapons. I am sure there is a carve out for India, not one for us.
Robert C. Christian
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Captain Positivity said:




I was wondering how they would flood the Irpin since it flows into the Dnieper. Looks like there is a lot of elevation between the natural end of the Irpin and where it currently flows into the Kyiv Reservoir. Lots of flooding/mud forcing troops into chokepoints.

Quote:

The location where Irpin' enters the Dnieper river falls into the Kyiv Reservoir which the Dnieper forms because of the Kyiv Hydro-Electric Power Plant dam. Thus, the Dnieper water level at this location is lifted artificially by about 6.57 meters above the natural level. Therefore, the water of Irpin' is pumped into the Kyiv Reservoir by powerful electrical pumps, making Irpin' the river that literally flows upwards.
jabberwalkie09
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Ag In Ok said:

TRM said:




One of their few economic weapons. I am sure there is a carve out for India, not one for us.
If there isn't, India is gonna be pissed. I'd imagine there's probably also a carve out for China probably as well
Decay
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Touchless said:

GAC06 said:

This is a TOW, which is a heavier missile, but the result is the same. Hit the ammunition and/or fuel inside, and the tank goes pop and the crew is mist.


I know absolutely nothing on how this stuff works, but a missle that is flying above a tank and then blowing it up is mind boggling to me. It doesn't even hit the tank. It just explodes when it's directly over the object it wants to blow up and somehow the explosive gets all of the energy and force going directly down onto the tank. Like, what? How? Crazy technology to me.
Well if all you gotta do is cook off the inside then you don't technically need to penetrate the armor. Just create a large enough shockwave and you've basically triggered the tank to blow itself up.

Now how that's accomplished I'm not 100%. I know shaped charges do crazy stuff like create a molten jet of metal which melts through armor, but I don't know if that's happening here. It really does look like the bigass shock just does the work.

edit, frame-stepping through the video it actually does look like there's a smaller jet of explosion that goes into the tank and then a few frames later everything explodes. Might be as simple as that.
PJYoung
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Red Pear Realty said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir_missile_system

Someone with more knowledge than me speak, but these Pantsirs, if used to their full extent and not just blown up, would be incredibly valuable for their IFF (identity friend or foe) systems. Like possibly help end the war valuable.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2020/06/19/libya_a_catastrophe_for_russias_pantsir_s1_air_defense_system_115394.amp.html






Quote:

Vis-a-vis those tires on that Pantsir…

That's a very high-value weapons system. As in, 'effing vital to your air defense umbrella.

If you're not making sure that that vehicle has good tires on it, what are you prioritizing?

The fact that one of those, apparently intact, is sitting out there for some Ukrainian farmer to make off with…? That's flatly terrifying to whoever is running that ADA umbrella, for oh-so-many reasons. First, the system is now unavailable. Second, and probably most important, the COMSEC and IFF data may still be on that thing, intact. That means that Ukraine now has a means of getting inside the Russian ADA networks, and wreaking havoc on anything flying. Hell, with the right guy doing the hacking, I wouldn't doubt that they couldn't get in and change IFF id codes such that Russian aircraft were now identified as hostile across the network, which would be 'effing incredibleThey'd be able to watch as the Russian ADA shot down their own aircraft.

If any vehicle was a burnt-out hulk, it should have been that one. Dear God, the freakin' potential there in terms of just COMSEC having to be redone across the entire force, based on the presumption it's been compromised. I would lay you long odds that whoever abandoned that thing intact that way probably didn't "Z" out all the systems…

This is, by the way, an SF teams fantasy accomplishment: Capturing something as networked as this thing is, intact. The fact that it's sitting there on Twitter? Russian COMSEC security guys should be filling their pants, right about now, and so should the ADA bubbas.

I cannot emphasize enough what a big deal an intact Pantsir with its COMSEC and IFF would be, to the right people. If the Ukrainians can't take advantage of something like that falling into their laps? They deserve to lose, frankly.

That picture caused literal jaw drop, when I saw it. The implications, past the tires? LOL… Mind-boggling. That's galactic-level military incompetence, that is. You do not abandon or allow to be abandoned an asset like that.

I gotta wonder where the hell the adult supervision is, in all of this. Is there any?
thirdcoast
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TRM said:




Some people see how big a deal it is

PJYoung
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No Spin Ag said:

Irish 2.0 said:






Does anyone know why the Swiss are hitting Putin like this when they stayed neutral when Hitler was running rampant?


Yeah sadly Putin doesn't threaten them the way Hitler did.
RebelE Infantry
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Touchless said:

GAC06 said:

This is a TOW, which is a heavier missile, but the result is the same. Hit the ammunition and/or fuel inside, and the tank goes pop and the crew is mist.


I know absolutely nothing on how this stuff works, but a missle that is flying above a tank and then blowing it up is mind boggling to me. It doesn't even hit the tank. It just explodes when it's directly over the object it wants to blow up and somehow the explosive gets all of the energy and force going directly down onto the tank. Like, what? How? Crazy technology to me.


The basic gist is this-

The missile is looking for the shape of a tank from above- a circle inside a rectangle. When it sees it, it will detonate 2 shaped charges into the turret and/or engine compartment.

That is what this particular missile is designed for. The TOW/ITAS system also has other missiles that can be used against hardened positions and buildings and such. The basic TOW has been around since at least the early 80s.

Source- I was a TOW gunner.
ATX_AG_08
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Decay
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Can always count on Texags to have a guy.

What's the advantage of a shaped charge from overhead instead of direct? Thinner armor?
Jsimonds58
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It's much thinner on top,

Source was also a tow gunner
ATX_AG_08
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All I do is Nguyen
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SpreadsheetAg said:

All I do is Nguyen said:

ATX_AG_08 said:


This is HUGE regardless of whatever misinformation is coming out. If Russia is willing to admit to at least 2100 dead, then it is much worse than that.
It's huge from an American / Western standpoint, but not so much to Russian Generals. They don't have our same view of casualties.

We know:
1. Russian tactics (and soviet before that) commit their conscripts and old equipment to fight first
2. Russian generals won't balk at these numbers, they will just keep feeding the war effort with more personnel and equipment from stores until they overwhelm or wear down the defenders

Now they probably were surprised by the resistance and the technology being thrown at them, but that was them sticking their hat up on a bayonet and seeing where the shooting is coming from and what is being shot at them.
So Russia uses 2nd tier machinery and soldiers first? Why does that not make a lot of sense to me? I would think you would want a mix of top tier soldiers with everyone else. I have ZERO military or tactical experience so I am just going off what makes sense to me, a civilian.
No matter what!
Epstein didn't do, you know, the thing...
I'm the rare Astros/Cowboys/Spurs fan. We do exist
RebelE Infantry
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Decay said:

Can always count on Texags to have a guy.

What's the advantage of a shaped charge from overhead instead of direct? Thinner armor?


More or less, ya. Most direct path to the magazine is through the top. The molten penetrators from the shaped charges are intended to set off the tank's ammo stores. And if the tank was out of ammo most likely will start a fire inside the crew compartment, disabling the tank and killing the crew.
nortex97
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TRM said:


They export about $3 billion of nitrogenous fertilizer per year. The US uses about 115 tons a year, and it's about $700 bucks a ton, so I am guessing...that while we probably import some it is not actually a show stopper (only around 4 or 5 tons).

My cowboy math (someone correct me) says that is only about 4 million tons in total (and most probably goes to India/Europe). I am sure there will be some good profit opportunities though as it will spike prices further short term.

This is probably a good site to ask; do we really have to import a lot of nitrogenous fertilizer?
Decay
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Thanks y'all. Last question, is the Javelin really a 280/300 kind of weapon? If it's smaller than the TOW is it more anti-BMP and less anti-tank?
RebelE Infantry
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Javelin is very much an antitank weapon.
jobu93
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I'm kind of thrilled that the NATO countries are sending the javelins as well as the old inventory.

Save the Javelins for the heavy tanks. Use the old stuff for the softer targets. Lot's more softer targets than tanks and you'd hate to waste a Javelin on a fuel truck.
BlackBear1
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It's definitely designed for anti-tank engagements. Give it a quick google and read through some of the technology in the system, pretty incredible.

On the TOW, my Marine unit only fired it once in our 2004 tour… and we missed. ha!

Also related to TOW, very few people know this, but at the Raytheon plant in McKinney there are demo units that let you aim in on, track and destroy vehicles traveling down 75. Maybe you've been attacked by a TOW and didn't know it?
FarmerJohn
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Simple and quick video describing shape charges. The concept was first introduced in WWII with Panzerfusts and I think Bazookas. The biggest difference is the use of electronics to expand the range of the weapon and allow to target the thinner steel on top, as previously mentioned.
MeKnowNot
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Why are countries not sending Ukraine some drones? Seems like Russia would not have any way to tell what country supplied them or, for that matter, who was controlling them.

Are drones considered a "weapon" like a missile, or are they considered "aircraft" like an A-10?
Sazerac
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Pretty sure Turkey has sent a bunch of very effective drones
dtkprowler
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Bayraktar!
Not a Bot
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Ukraine is buying drones from Turkey. They've been highly effective.

The convoy in the west may be a bit out of operating range depending on launch location and is likely covered by somewhat active anti-air measures now, so drone strikes are less feasible.
RikkiTikkaTagem
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All I do is Nguyen said:

SpreadsheetAg said:

All I do is Nguyen said:

ATX_AG_08 said:


This is HUGE regardless of whatever misinformation is coming out. If Russia is willing to admit to at least 2100 dead, then it is much worse than that.
It's huge from an American / Western standpoint, but not so much to Russian Generals. They don't have our same view of casualties.

We know:
1. Russian tactics (and soviet before that) commit their conscripts and old equipment to fight first
2. Russian generals won't balk at these numbers, they will just keep feeding the war effort with more personnel and equipment from stores until they overwhelm or wear down the defenders

Now they probably were surprised by the resistance and the technology being thrown at them, but that was them sticking their hat up on a bayonet and seeing where the shooting is coming from and what is being shot at them.
So Russia uses 2nd tier machinery and soldiers first? Why does that not make a lot of sense to me? I would think you would want a mix of top tier soldiers with everyone else. I have ZERO military or tactical experience so I am just going off what makes sense to me, a civilian.


You value all lives equally that serve our military so it wouldn't make sense. The Russians:

A. Don't value all lives equally
B. Don't have enough top tier equipment to equip their whole army

so they have significant tiers in their military.

From a strategic point it makes sense, you have old equipment that is still functional and lethal just sitting around. Instead of letting it go, man it with people you consider second class citizens and deplorables and go soften up the enemy forces. Whatever they kill, great. If your own soldiers die, who cares. You didn't like them anyway and the gear they lost was about to become obsolete anyway.
G-Town Cracker
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G-Town Cracker
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How good does it feel? You belong in these hills.
CondensedFogAggie
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There's a subreddit setup for information about volunteers going to Ukraine. https://www.reddit.com/r/volunteersForUkraine/

Some interesting posts

Quote:

We are responding to the critical needs of the situation on the ground. I will be blunt it is not good. There are seasoned combat veterans who survived the worst of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc. all saying they have never seen anything like this and it is warfare on a level never before.

This means we need to send the people who can best respond to this circumstance. I know you heard Zelensky asked for "everybody. That doesn't mean that WE should help send everybody. We are focusing on sending people with the following skills to get the most effective volunteers over to Ukraine right away:

[ol]
  • Heavy combat experience with multiple tours of duty and multiple years of enlistment, usually infantry or special forces/spec ops
  • Combat/heavy combat experience with medical training or a highly qualified medical professional (surgeon, Navy Corpsman, etc.)
  • Combat experience/significant military experience and a fluent Russian/Ukrainean speaker
  • [/ol]

    <SNIP>

    The strange benefit of the horrors of war in Iraq and Afghanistan now means that the USA has thousands of people who do fit the profiles above. The problem is these guys are not easy to send off. Combat vets generally don't have passports especially after two years of Covid. Seriously, a combat vet with a passport is finding a diamond. As one of you told me "Grunts are bad at paperwork." That is true there is an inverse relationship between having a passport or being able to get a passport quickly and being able to keep yourself alive in a war zone. I learned that this week I think I explained to 500 of you guys how to get a passport and shout out to a certain one of you who is REALLY bad at paperwork I'm so glad we got you all set buddy. In addition, we have to heavily vet people. We have to know you have the experience you claim and you aren't really a militia member who will make things worse. This is serious. This is not weekend warrior this is going into the worst ground warfare the world has ever seen. We also have to make sure you have the proper equipment and 100% of everything you need


    <SNIP>

    Lawyers, we also need you. Here are two options to assist. Must be members of the bar in any US state:
    [ol]
  • Are you former JAG Corps or other relevant experience in military law? Definitely in need of your help to answer questions from volunteers.
  • Are you an attorney who could assist volunteers file passport applications and get them expedited, write wills and update wills, assign power of attorney, etc.? All of our volunteers have legal needs to get them on their way.
  • [/ol]

    wangus12
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    Quote:

    There are seasoned combat veterans who survived the worst of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc. all saying they have never seen anything like this and it is warfare on a level never before.
    This is the 2nd time I've seen that said. What makes this one so much different than previous?
    CondensedFogAggie
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    And some comments on the Ukraine Volunteers sub

    Quote:

    14 year veteran with the U.S. Army as an infantryman. Small arms expert, proficient in training and multiple tours to Iraq and Afghanistan with combat experience with paperwork to prove it.
    Quote:

    Any chance I can find out if my application has been processed yet? Two combat tours airborne infantry with commo and medic qualifications. 48 years old excellent physical condition (no meds or preexisting cond) With passport and can get myself there and geared up. Just need some direction.
    Quote:

    I messaged you. Still waiting. I am a corpsman. The group I have 50% have our passports and the other 50% are enroute.

    While being patient I went ahead and took the initiative. I hope recruited is the right word but I have inspired a navy doctor into my group. We have many seasoned and salty corpsman who were with the infantry their entire career. We were all in from 04 and on. We are an older batch of veterans.

    We have planned everything out and are coordinating with troops on the ground from our network. We are gathering medical supplies, donations and gear. There is a group that we have contact with but for the sake of opsec, rather not say ****, they are requesting for major support.

    Quote:

    US Army 11B, firefighter, EMT, and law enforcement here. Got a group of 25 veterans trying to go over.
    Quote:

    I am a nurse. Can I be of assistance. ICU and psych experience. Have a passport
    Quote:

    I have 14 years in the Army Reserve and Virginia Army National Guard. I was an XO of my MP unit in Iraq. I handled logistics but the Fort Leonard Wood MP school taught me to shoot an M9 left and right handed and an Army sniper at Fort Dix taught me to be better at the M-16. My father's family was killed by Russians from 1917-1941 and his father was put in a gulag. Can I get an address for where to go, say in Lviv for starters? I have to determine where to go? Or should I just make my way to the border? I can get in myself but need to know where to go. I don't know Ukrainian.
    Quote:

    Iraq vetran trying to get over there to help out. Im new to reddit so idk how to pm you. Im in Alaska right now. Deployed to iraq 07-09 gunner and PSD. Need more info on how to help out.
    Eliminatus
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    Decay said:

    Thanks y'all. Last question, is the Javelin really a 280/300 kind of weapon? If it's smaller than the TOW is it more anti-BMP and less anti-tank?


    It really is that good. The advanced tracking system on it was absolute cutting edge when it was introduced and still top notch today. There are a few things that can interfere with it but if the gunner has a solid lock and touches it off, it is almost guaranteed. I gotta say, I am surprised there were 20 misses. I'm guessing it was more physical factors than anything directly related to the missile tracking itself.

    Source: was a Javelin gunner
    Waffledynamics
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    wangus12 said:

    Quote:

    There are seasoned combat veterans who survived the worst of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc. all saying they have never seen anything like this and it is warfare on a level never before.
    This is the 2nd time I've seen that said. What makes this one so much different than previous?
    My guess is hyperbole, but what do I know? That use of rhetoric could convey urgency and danger for those that like to run toward that sort of stuff, though.
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