***** OFFICIAL Russia v. Ukraine *****

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nortex97
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K2-HMFIC said:

nortex97 said:

K2-HMFIC said:

nortex97 said:

Casually strolling toward a major land war in Europe.



No worries, Anthony Blinken has got this one.



Okkkkk…please explain how Sweden and Finland joining NATO will lead to land war in Europe?


We are talking about kicking out Turkey, if so, and we also have Russia cutting off the Finnish power already with the application. That may only be 10 percent of their electric consumption right now, but more will follow. The steady escalation with Russia is only going to lead to a broader conflict, clearly. The Turks fragmenting nato support offer Scandinavian support for PKK is also very problematic.

We (collectively) are just casually approaching a very desperate situation with Russia with increasingly intense actions that will prompt responses.


You're conflating bargaining power with somehow escalating to world war 3.

Turkey is trying extract concessions…and Meanwhile we've been openly running guns to the Ukrainians, and providing them intelligence to kill Russians and THAT has not escalated to WW3.

Why?

Because we are a nuclear armed superpower and deterrence cuts both ways.
I may be.

But you may also be conflating logical reasoning with Russian beliefs about their territorial/cultural/religious beliefs being right, as to their role as the 'new Rome/Constantinople.' Regardless of Putin's medical prognosis, it is a belief that is widely held.

Tactical positions I'd happily give American intelligence an advantage on, but strategic ones…I am not as confident as you that our state/IC community are playing…right.
K2-HMFIC
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nortex97 said:

K2-HMFIC said:

nortex97 said:

K2-HMFIC said:

nortex97 said:

Casually strolling toward a major land war in Europe.



No worries, Anthony Blinken has got this one.



Okkkkk…please explain how Sweden and Finland joining NATO will lead to land war in Europe?


We are talking about kicking out Turkey, if so, and we also have Russia cutting off the Finnish power already with the application. That may only be 10 percent of their electric consumption right now, but more will follow. The steady escalation with Russia is only going to lead to a broader conflict, clearly. The Turks fragmenting nato support offer Scandinavian support for PKK is also very problematic.

We (collectively) are just casually approaching a very desperate situation with Russia with increasingly intense actions that will prompt responses.


You're conflating bargaining power with somehow escalating to world war 3.

Turkey is trying extract concessions…and Meanwhile we've been openly running guns to the Ukrainians, and providing them intelligence to kill Russians and THAT has not escalated to WW3.

Why?

Because we are a nuclear armed superpower and deterrence cuts both ways.
I may be.

But you may also be conflating logical reasoning with Russian beliefs about their territorial/cultural/religious beliefs being right, as to their role as the 'new Rome/Constantinople.' Regardless of Putin's medical prognosis, it is a belief that is widely held.

Tactical positions I'd happily give American intelligence an advantage on, but strategic ones…I am not as confident as you that our state/IC community are playing…right.


Deterrence is agnostic of their beliefs…crazy or not…deterrence has worked for over seventy years. Why?

Because no one on either side wants to risk global thermonuclear war.
Rossticus
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They can't even keep a unified stance. One Russian government entity states that they don't care if Finland and Sweden join, then another threatens to nuke them. It's all about creating fear and uncertainty in order to compel the behavior they desire.

aggiehawg
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Rossticus said:

They can't even keep a unified stance. One Russian government entity states that they don't care if Finland and Sweden join, then another threatens to nuke them. It's all about creating fear and uncertainty in order to compel the behavior they desire.


"Deploying"? Does that mean firing them or moving them into position to be fired? If the latter, is that an admission that there aren't any nuclear assets near the border with Finland?
jobu93
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I've thought about this and I frankly have no idea.

What type of upkeep does an ICBM require?
aggiehawg
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oldmanguy said:

I've thought about this and I frankly have no idea.

What type of upkeep does an ICBM require?
A lot.

Quote:

With a price tag of about $95 billion, the GBSD program has long been criticized as too costly. The critics argue that money would be better spent on other priorities, like combating climate change.

Meanwhile, they say, the Minuteman III can ensure the nation's security for a while longer.
But sustaining missiles built before there was even an internet is no cheap task. Adm. Charles Richard, commander of U.S. Strategic Command, recently testified that some parts of the Minuteman III system are so old that contractors no longer know how to make them. And trying to retrofit cyber-secure software into a system built before cyber existed will certainly be expensive.

The Air Force initially estimated that extending the Minuteman III would cost only $1.1 billion more than GBSD. But that cost difference has now skyrocketed to $38 billion because the earlier estimate assumed that programs to update key missile parts like the propulsion system, missile guidance set and rocket engines would get underway in 2015 or 2016. Since the Air Force selected GBSD as the better option for the nation, those decision points have long passed.
Link
Demosthenes81
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aggiehawg said:

Rossticus said:

They can't even keep a unified stance. One Russian government entity states that they don't care if Finland and Sweden join, then another threatens to nuke them. It's all about creating fear and uncertainty in order to compel the behavior they desire.


"Deploying"? Does that mean firing them or moving them into position to be fired? If the latter, is that an admission that there aren't any nuclear assets near the border with Finland?


With Russia, as with the previous Soviet Union, there is always what they say they are not doing and what they actually do. Tactical nukes have been a mainstay of their doctrine since the early 70s. So the may say there are no nukes on the Finnish border but you can probably bet they do. Stating it publicly is more for their domestic audience and for any Finnish and Swedish opposition party's benefit.
Seven and three are ten, not only now, but forever. There has never been a time when seven and three were not ten, nor will there ever be a time when they are not ten. Therefore, I have said that the truth of number is incorruptible and common to all who think. — St. Augustine
Rossticus
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Rossticus
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Translation of quoted tweet:

"In the destroyed Mariupol, where there is no electricity, gas and water, the anthem of the DPR is played to hungry people at the center for issuing humanitarian aid.

Just some kind of sophisticated mockery."
FamousAgg
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The sure denazified that place right into rubble
Rossticus
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Rossticus
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Mule
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Ulysses90 said:

I am of the opinion that the operational state of Russia's nuclear arsenal is no better, and probably worse, than their conventional forces. Putin may know this but the smart people that are a degree of separation from him definitely know it even if saying so would mean their death. Lavrov knows it and so does Arestovich and Zelenskyy.

What kind of life does a Russian near weapon engineer or technician have? Are they part of the elite class? I don't think so. Are they true believers in Putinism that actuallyou believe that those missiles and warheads are going to be used someday and if so, do they believe that they themselves and Russia will survive? I doubt it.

I suspect that the maintainers of the Russian Nuke force are as corrupt as the Colonels in the army and they pocket the money that is provided for upkeep. They are face with a bullet in the head if the state of those weapons is discovered by Putin or that he will try to use them.
You may be 100% correct - have wondered the same thing myself. Stopped wondering after I realized the danger of such an assumption.
Texas Aggies
Rossticus
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Russia busy stealing everything they can.

"Russian assets of the Renault group become state property"
Rossticus
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Relatively comprehensive. Not bad.

Full Thread (30 Examples): https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1506714867981602817.html




Rossticus
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Full Thread: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1526266440684388352.html

ABATTBQ11
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Nice gas pipeline. Wold be a shame if something happened to it.

/Ukraine
Texasaggie32
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Rossticus
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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At the end of the day, this whole thing is a giant money laundering scheme.

Lets not forget that.

nortex97
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Demosthenes81 said:

aggiehawg said:

Rossticus said:

They can't even keep a unified stance. One Russian government entity states that they don't care if Finland and Sweden join, then another threatens to nuke them. It's all about creating fear and uncertainty in order to compel the behavior they desire.


"Deploying"? Does that mean firing them or moving them into position to be fired? If the latter, is that an admission that there aren't any nuclear assets near the border with Finland?


With Russia, as with the previous Soviet Union, there is always what they say they are not doing and what they actually do. Tactical nukes have been a mainstay of their doctrine since the early 70s. So the may say there are no nukes on the Finnish border but you can probably bet they do. Stating it publicly is more for their domestic audience and for any Finnish and Swedish opposition party's benefit.
Regardless, if they didn't before,they almost certainly have them at the border now.

Quote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has been openly opposed to the NATO applications, responded with a tantrum, reportedly moving mobile, nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to Russia's 810-mile border with Finland Monday. From the Sun:
Quote:

  • The mobile short range ballistic missile is capable of carrying cluster munitions or fuel-air explosive enhanced-blast warheads.
  • With a range of up to 310 miles, the Iskander can also be deployed for bunker-busting and anti-radar missions.
  • The movement of the lethal missiles comes after Russia warned Finland and Sweden that their decision to join NATO was a "grave mistake with far-reaching consequences."


Quote:

Further provoking Russia, a reported 15,000 troops from 14 NATO countries will conduct a huge military drill in the Baltics starting today. Soldiers from Finland and Sweden will participate in the exercise dubbed 'Siil' or 'Hedgehog' today, which will take place just 40 miles from the nearest Russian base.

Some here at home are questioning the wisdom of provocations like these as well as the further expansion of NATO. After all, one of Russia's justifications for invading Ukraine was the encroachment of NATO towards its western borders.

Quote:

Vlad had already been talking tough even before the applications were announced, saying helpful things like Russia could wipe out Finland in "ten seconds" if it wanted to, and that Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO would certainly "trigger a response." We're apparently already starting to see what that response might look like.

Who?mikejones!
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No, Jr, it's not how it started. A convenient excuse perhaps.

nortex97
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Agthatbuilds said:

No, Jr, it's not how it started. A convenient excuse perhaps.
Look, kiddo, it's factually true. Let's not forget that there were tensions, and NATO expansion (including possibly to Ukraine) before January 2022.

Quote:

Russia is demanding that the U.S. and NATO deny Ukraine membership into the alliance and asking for a rollback in military deployments, according to draft security agreements released Friday.

The Russian Foreign Ministry released two documents that were given to the U.S. during a meeting in Moscow on Wednesday.

In a press release, the ministry said U.S. officials were "given detailed explanations" of the treaties, adding that it hopes Washington will "enter serious talks with Russia in the near future."

Quote:

The expansion of NATO to Sweden and Finland poses "no direct threat for us... but the expansion of military infrastructure to these territories will certainly provoke our response," Putin said during a televised summit meeting of the Collective Security Treaty Organisation.

The Moscow-led military alliance includes six countries of the former Soviet Union: Russia, Belarus, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.

"This is a problem that is created completely artificially, because it is done in the foreign policy interests of the United States," Putin said, adding that NATO has become a "foreign policy instrument of one country".

"All this exacerbates an already difficult international security environment," Putin said.
Finland and Sweden are poised to jettison decades of military non-alignment to join NATO as a defence against feared aggression from Russia after Moscow sent troops into Ukraine on February 24.
Quote:

One of Russia's justifications for the military campaign in Ukraine was the encroachment of NATO towards its western borders. However, Moscow will now see Finland, with which Russia shares a 1,300-kilometre (800-mile) border, join the alliance.

Speaking at the CSTO meeting hosted in Moscow, Belarusian President and close Putin ally Alexander Lukashenko was the only other leader from the six-nation bloc to address the NATO expansion and back military action in Ukraine.

"NATO is aggressively building up its muscles, yesterday drawing in the neutral Finland and Sweden," said Lukashenko, who in February allowed Russian troops to enter Ukraine from Belarusian territory.
Who?mikejones!
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Was Ukraine in nato? Was Ukraine going to join nato?

No

What threat was nato to Russia?

None, unless of course Russia were to proactively invade a nato country.

This war isn't about nato. Why did Russia invade ukraine in 2014? Was that nato too?

Putin wanted ukraine's resources. Putin wanted ukraines people. Putin wants to stroke his own ego. Russia severely miscalculated the ramifications of this invasion and has likely caused nato to expand, undermining one of the alleged reasons for the invasion. You think they didn't anticipate that?

This isn't about nato. I'd be more willing to accept it being about putin combating western (not nato) influences than the non threat nato is to Russian existence.

backintexas2013
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So EU are still Putin's boys. When are they going to get roasted like anyone who dares speak up about us sending billions to Ukraine
nortex97
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Agthatbuilds said:

Was Ukraine in nato? Was Ukraine going to join nato?

No

What threat was nato to Russia?

None, unless of course Russia were to proactively invade a nato country.

This war isn't about nato. Why did Russia invade ukraine in 2014? Was that nato too?

Putin wanted ukraine's resources. Putin wanted ukraines people. Putin wants to stroke his own ego. Russia severely miscalculated the ramifications of this invasion and has likely caused nato to expand, undermining one of the alleged reasons for the invasion. You think they didn't anticipate that?

This isn't about nato. I'd be more willing to accept it being about putin combating western (not nato) influences than the non threat nato is to Russian existence.


Do you really deny that Ukraine was actively seeking to join Nato? Yes, it's also about western influences in his mind.

I know we all dislike Putin now and it is the popular MO for everyone to 100% blame him, but there is a history on both sides, including nato expansion over 30 years that has contributed to the current conflagration, which threatens to expand further this year and next. Seriously, sometimes I think the posters on here that just want to beat their proverbial chests about showing strength vs. evil/stupid Russia, and 'alliances are great/freely chosen' should maybe, just maybe go back and read more 2021 and prior actual criticisms of Nato/Russian responses to it.

I know we only have a propaganda press so you won't find too much looking around today/under a Dem Sec. of State, but at least check out the Trump/W years of criticisms/worries.
JJxvi
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NATO really only matters insofar as membership would shut the door on Russia ability to annex Ukraine without going to war with the world at once.
Who?mikejones!
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Seeking membership and it being a reality are two different things. Ukraine was highly unlikely to ever be a nato member. Maybe now, should it withstand this invasion, it will become onr.

Further, what difference would it make to Russia except curb their apparent enthusiasm of invading other countries?

Nato is a defensive alliance. It poses no threat to the existence of Russia unless Russia takes the dramatic step of invading a nato country. Russia knows this. Putin knows this.

This war is not about nato. It's never been about nato.
benchmark
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nortex97 said:

No you really deny that Ukraine was actively seeking to join Nato? Yes, it's also about western influences in his mind.
Good grief. NATO expansion was a false flag. Putin invaded Ukraine because he believed Ukraine would fold like a cheap suit and NATO's response would be similar to Crimea, Donbas, Syria, Georgia, et al. Rinse and repeat with hybrid war false flags in Moldova and the Baltics.
nortex97
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JJxvi said:

NATO really only matters insofar as membership would shut the door on Russia ability to annex Ukraine without going to war with the world at once.
Again, y'all can keep baldly asserting things, but that's not what the 5, 10, 30, 100, or 1,0000 year history of Russian attitudes about foreign encroachments says.

Quote:

According to Stephen Kotkin, a professor of Russian history at Princeton University, Putin believes that Russia rightfully deserves a sphere of influence in its "near abroad." To Putin, Ukraine is not a state because it is not sovereign. Small or weak states are only instruments in the hands of the great powers. Where we see Russian aggression, Putin sees defense. If Russia cannot control Ukraine, then the West will. Thus, countries like Ukraine become platforms for invasion. And then the West will dismember Russia as the USSR was dismembered.

This way of thinking in Russia of course goes back to the tsars. Russia has no natural borders on its periphery. Stalin believed that he needed hegemony in Eastern Europe because otherwise he would be subject to infiltration and subversion. But the peoples of Eastern European did not want to be forced to live under communism, creating the very hostility Stalin feared.

Again, the 1,000 year lament by Putin was not a solitary belief of his;

Quote:

When Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet Union 'a major geopolitical disaster of the century' he wasn't channelling his inner Marxist-Leninist. Russia's leader is not interested in remaking the Soviet empire, which finally fell apart 30 years ago today, on Boxing Day 1991. But he does want to roll back the losses of the post Cold War era, expand Russia's sphere of influence, and build a buffer zone around the homeland. It's this that explains Russian aggression on the borders of Ukraine. While western observers might like to paint this as mindless sabre-rattling, the reality is that this massing of troops is driven by fear and the memories of past encroachments onto Russian soil.

Understanding this is key to realising what Putin is up to. Russia's leader is a politician whose nationalism has been on display in every foreign policy move throughout his time in power. During the 1999 Kosovo War it's thought he was one of the foreign policy hawks successfully urging president Yeltsin to send an armoured column to Pristina Air Base ahead of Nato troops arriving. That was a watershed moment, the signal sent to Nato was: 'This far and no further'. It was ignored.

Russian thinking is dominated by its geography and history. It has been invaded via the flat land to its west by Sweden, Poland, the Lithuanian Empire, the French, and the Germans (twice). The Russians don't want to defend along a 1,000-mile-long flat frontier, their reflex is to try to push up to the 300-mile gap between the Baltic Sea and the Carpathians and plug it. Unfortunately that space is better known by another name: Poland.

Moscow is trying to take advantage of the melting ice by establishing the Northern Sea route along its coastline as a major trade corridor between Europe and Asia by 2035


The Russians also want, at the least, a pro-Moscow government in Ukraine to guarantee Nato troops will not be on the border with short supply lines. So when Ukraine flipped, Putin engineered the uprising in the Donbass region (creating a mini buffer zone) and annexed Crimea.

Moscow's 2008 military intervention in Georgia is also linked to the fear of Nato advancing ever closer.

The former Warsaw Pact members Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Albania, GDR (East Germany) and the Czech Republic/Slovakia are all now in Nato. It is also why Russia keep 2,000 troops in the Moldavian breakaway republic of Transnistria.

Much of its Arctic policy is derived from the same impulse. Russia's submarine-based nuclear second-strike ability is on the Kola Peninsula adjoining Finland. Putin has made it a priority that Russia's economic interests in the Arctic will be protected by its military. Vast untapped reserves of oil and gas have been found, some in waters with overlapping sovereignty claims. Moscow staked its claim on most of the Arctic in 2007 by planting a Russian flag on the seabed at the North Pole. Russia also expects to increase its share of fish in the ocean as warming waters push fish northwards.

Yes, Putin is a bit of a madman, and emphatically yes, the Russians are committing terrible atrocities in this war (as in most of their wars), but just waltzing it up the escalation ladder is silly, at best, and more likely willfully ignorant, when it involves claiming that Nato expansion has nothing to do with any of this.
AggieTarheel
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A sovereign nation seeking to join an alliance against a military threat that threatened its existence is NOT a reason to go to war. It's an excuse.

At this point, since that has been made very clear, everyone interested in deterrence of the bully needs to hop in the alliance. That is NOT a reason to go to war.
Rossticus
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BusterAg
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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

At the end of the day, this whole thing is a giant money laundering scheme.

Lets not forget that.


That is so much more important than all of the child rapes going on in Russia.

Yes, US politicians took advantage of a crisis to steal your money. They robbed us while doing the right thing.

Does that mean we shouldn't do the right thing?
LMCane
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this is pretty insane.

I had known of this before, but when you actually watch his TV show and realize in reality he went from some working joe comedian to being elected President of the second largest country in Europe, then being the subject of Donald Trump's impeachment (!!), then having Russia invade your country and send hit squads to assassinate you.

Jake Gyllenhaal needs to play him in the bio-pic!!

JJxvi
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Even if NATO expansion is some cardinal sin, it wasnt really ever even on the table. Ukraine moving up joining NATO as a priority happened after the war started (in 2014). You know because when you're at war you want allies.

The war started because Yanukovych failed to turn Ukraine towards Russia and away from the EU and his government fell. The "blame America" idea that the "CIA led a coup!" Is more credible than "NATO is wrecking the world by expanding!" BS. It at least follows the events that occured
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