Not this century. Something else was going on.

But again, the point is what do they think it is. If you want to ignore their take, that's fine. If you are okay with war, then say it.

But the problem with that is, to borrow from another thread, YouBet put it perfectly. We only have one throw--we have to choose:

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3272183/replies/61480741

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100% agree with #2. The big question is, do we care? Should we care? Or do we go with appeasement?

I think we are a war weary country (rightfully so) and this ends the way Putin wants.

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I don't care and not sure that we should in the grand scheme of things. We have zero strategic interest there.

Taiwan is an actual, critical strategic concern. China will own the planet if they take Taiwan...at least as long as it would take us to ramp up our own chip production enough to offset which is at least 5 years away, if not longer.

Would rather we divert resources to them than Ukraine.

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I believe Putin will go in. And this isn't the comic opera force that got mauled in Chechnya. They've had good success in Georgia, Ukraine and Syria. Yes our special forces will wipe out their "contractors" but I doubt Ukrainian units are upto SOCOM standards in general.

Not this century? I can think of three invasions of former Soviet states by Russia this century. The need for NATO is illustrated by Eastern European countries flocking to it for protection from Russia.

However NATO only works if Russia is actually deterred. We could have been much more responsive to Russia's build up even if Germany wasn't on board.

aezmvp,

I fear he will too. Especially after that gobbledygook virtual `greenlight' Biden has given not once, but twice.

But YouBet's take is right. The way this plays out, it is not where to commit what little we have. The Left Democrats have gutted what we were ---- we are not the country that could win against multiples at a time. We should focus on preserving Taiwan if possible. If Taiwan falls, not only does China had a stranglehold on high tech needs, but it would be the key to them eventually bringing Japan to knees before they can complete their re-awakening that might stop it.

Taiwan must not fall now, but it is likely to as well. But if we are going to try to stop something with force, it should be that one. The Bidenites have left us wide open to attack on cyber and physical border alike. We can't start something in this state.

We could have deterred Russia without doing much to expose Taiwan, especially if NATO was actually on board. Not much role for the army in Taiwan anyway.

GAC06 said:

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We could have deterred Russia without doing much to expose Taiwan, especially if NATO was actually on board. Not much role for the army in Taiwan anyway.

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Theoretically yes, but Germany seems way too big a component to have missing. For it to be effective.

GAC06 said:

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We could have deterred Russia without doing much to expose Taiwan, especially if NATO was actually on board. Not much role for the army in Taiwan anyway.

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Two things here:

1. We probably could have if we had a competent President and administration, but he has presented us as a decadent, failing empire. Afghanistan withdrawal was our coming out party for his vision of America in this regard. A completely unnecessary, abandon at all costs, withdrawal. I've never seen such an own goal in foreign policy in my lifetime.

This won't be corrected unless we get someone else in office that is not a Democrat. Our window for that is seemingly closed.

2. We are NATO. If Europe has no interest in doing anything about Russia then I simply do not understand why we have to do it for them. Again, the EU has 300M more people and 18x the GDP than Russia. They have almost 100M more people than the USA. And yet Trump had to browbeat some of them to meet their own defense commitments. And never mind that their largest country (Germany) has willingly presented their head to the chopping block that is Russia....with Biden's approval...and in direct conflict with the EU!

How about the EU recalibrate their priorities? Spend less on cradle to grave welfare and more on defense if they are actually worried about Russia. We should be a minor player in NATO; as it stands it completely fails without us.

Our own recalibration should prioritize the Western Hemisphere over all and then determine how best to spend resources in the Eastern Hemisphere, afterwards.

Sorry for long post. Didn't sleep much.

GAC06 said:

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We could have deterred Russia without doing much to expose Taiwan, especially if NATO was actually on board. Not much role for the army in Taiwan anyway.

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we could reestablish deterrence by bombing the hell out of the Iranian nuclear facilities'

but Biden and his team of idiots are too stupid

and would rather saber rattle with the two strongest countries on the planet

Ukraine can now request a meeting under paragraph 16.2, Chapter III "to discuss the matter". It is up to the Polish OSCE Chair to convene the meeting within the next 48 hours. See here the full text of the Vienna Document: https://t.co/bsDBqTvOye@PLinOSCE @OSCE

— Stephanie Liechtenstein (@StLiechtenstein) February 13, 2022

LMCane said:

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GAC06 said:

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We could have deterred Russia without doing much to expose Taiwan, especially if NATO was actually on board. Not much role for the army in Taiwan anyway.

---

we could reestablish deterrence by bombing the hell out of the Iranian nuclear facilities'

but Biden and his team of idiots are too stupid

and would rather saber rattle with the two strongest countries on the planet

---

How is Biden "saber rattling"? Russia has mobilized and deployed virtually their entire military, we sent a few planes of ammunition. China hasn't really changed anything IRT to Taiwan and neither have we.

NATO needs to be sent a message.

The US has spent more than half a century providing a blanket of protection and we can no longer do that.

You must take the initiative and defend yourselves.

If you do not have the will to do so then you cease to be able to perform the basic function required of a nation and should be replaced or taken over and we will let that happen.

I am sick of US soldiers bleeding for people that refuse to bleed for their own countries.

Such actions only serve the purpose of further enriching the wealthy.

Taiwan is another story because they have made it clear they will fight if we sell them the means.

But seriously- **** europe.

Jake12, an RC-135, has flown a circuit over Ukraine today.

🇺🇸Boeing RC-135V Rivet Joint JAKE12 pic.twitter.com/dguqLzkc3R

— 360°Radar (@wipljw) February 13, 2022

If Russia is serious when it talks about the indivisibility of security in the OSCE space, it must fulfill its commitment to military transparency in order to de-escalate tensions and enhance security for all 2/2

— Dmytro Kuleba (@DmytroKuleba) February 13, 2022

You can leave before a war starts, but ONLY if you're vaccinated.

JUST IN: State Department says Americans fleeing Ukraine may now enter Poland but must show proof of COVID-19 vaccination. pic.twitter.com/MzTVFhyEBs

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) February 12, 2022

will25u said:

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You can leave before a war starts, but ONLY if you're vaccinated.

JUST IN: State Department says Americans fleeing Ukraine may now enter Poland but must show proof of COVID-19 vaccination. pic.twitter.com/MzTVFhyEBs

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) February 12, 2022

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Incredible. They might have more liberty if they just choose to stay and see how a Russian annexation goes. Its not like ISIS coming in.

In Surreal Plot Twist, Ukraine's President Demands Proof From US Over Alarmist Russian Invasion Claims https://t.co/VHU6miVgYe

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) February 13, 2022

Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

FORTE12 the RQ-4 drone is up. Probably do the same overnight pattern as if has the last couple of days.

👀 📡 Another all night Global Hawk mission heading for Ukraine / Baltics / Black Sea

🇺🇸 US Air Force
RQ-4 Global Hawk
04-2015 FORTE12 pic.twitter.com/hdGbHNRmHV

— CivMilAir ✈ (@CivMilAir) February 13, 2022

titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

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Frankly, the USA should not be the Pointman on this issue. The major euro NATO players should be. But I'm sure they would find a way to mess it up even without our help.

titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

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Sigh.

Why?

K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

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Sigh.

Why?

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Bidenite tendency to hyperbole and thinking in terms of crisis from everything from covid to this. Total inability to look at new facts.

OTOH, a united front by France, Germany, along with Eastern Europe could have real force. As Russia's "customers" if they declared a willingness to sacrifice and do without, that could hurt Russia. We then back them fully but let them lead in the point. They also have more sober leaders at the present rather than collectivist gender dimwits.

jabberwalkie09 said:

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titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

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Frankly, the USA should not be the Pointman on this issue. The major euro NATO players should be. But I'm sure they would find a way to mess it up even without our help.

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Exactly this. Not least, because it is their dependency that is Russia's weapon. Not anything they have on us.

IF Europe can signal they will take the lumps that goes with defying that dependency, like an addict saying "no I will cold turkey" -- that is something Putin has to listen to.

titan said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

---

Sigh.

Why?

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Bidenite tendency to hyperbole and thinking in terms of crisis from everything from covid to this. Total inability to look at new facts.

OTOH, a united front by France, Germany, along with Eastern Europe could have real force. As Russia's "customers" if they declared a willingness to sacrifice and do without, that could hurt Russia. We then back them fully but let them lead in the point. They also have more sober leaders at the present rather than collectivist gender dimwits.

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Titan, you are describing why you don't like Biden…which is fine…but you don't seem to answering the question as to why the US is culpable for putting 150K Russian troops on the Ukrainian border?

If you want to say Biden could be doing a better job of alliance management, or could have been more aggressive about NS2, or hasn't handled foreign policy well…sure.

But if you say the US is culpable…then you have to rationalize that statement first.

At this point not seeing them would be more important than seeing them. It's been near a month of daily sweeps by the RCs

https://texags.com/forums/34/topics/2869476/replies/61306809

K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

---

Sigh.

Why?

---

Bidenite tendency to hyperbole and thinking in terms of crisis from everything from covid to this. Total inability to look at new facts.

OTOH, a united front by France, Germany, along with Eastern Europe could have real force. As Russia's "customers" if they declared a willingness to sacrifice and do without, that could hurt Russia. We then back them fully but let them lead in the point. They also have more sober leaders at the present rather than collectivist gender dimwits.

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Titan, you are describing why you don't like Biden…which is fine…but you don't seem to answering the question as to why the US is culpable for putting 150K Russian troops on the Ukrainian border? = I didn't say that. I mean culpable in overheating the rhetoric---stoking, not cooling, things. You can't ask for better proof of that than both sides saying back off.

If you want to say Biden could be doing a better job of alliance management, or could have been more aggressive about NS2, or hasn't handled foreign policy well…sure. = Goes far beyond that. Absolutely incapable. Some of the top Pentagon come across that way too.

But if you say the US is culpable…then you have to rationalize that statement first. = No, because you were proceeding from a false reading of where the `culpable' goes too.

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Totally agree that the long term priority is Taiwan. However you dont deter China by just dropping your pants to Russia. You supply them with arms logistics and intelligence. Also soft support like cyber and economic. You divert lots of training and long term support to Taiwan, Japan and S Korea. You build your relationships with Anzac and with Vietnam, Philippines etc.

I dont think this regime has the competence or will to do so but...

I may be wrong, but this is starting to look like a KGB intel operation.

https://t.co/Ur5fZsjxRb

— Ukraine War Report (@UkrWarReport) February 13, 2022

aezmvp said:

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Totally agree that the long term priority is Taiwan. However you dont deter China by just dropping your pants to Russia. You supply them with arms logistics and intelligence. Also soft support like cyber and economic. You divert lots of training and long term support to Taiwan, Japan and S Korea. You build your relationships with Anzac and with Vietnam, Philippines etc.

I dont think this regime has the competence or will to do so but...

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I agree. I just think the view is that at most we have one shot is true. Too much has been squandered and weakened by the four-year seditionists and now the woke take over of institutions. That's not something that is going to win a war with China ---but rather lose it. Not least because technically speaking every Leftist is half-way to being CCP Marxist anyway. You have a built in 5th column.

We definitely don't have it to take on both at once and with a government not deserving any support trying to rally it.

The difference is, war over Taiwan may be some time off yet--- whereas over Ukraine, it would be beginning now. We need every week we can get, let alone months. And even that is true only if really assertive people are thinking of what needs to happen next.

China will be watching obviously, but long term China is going to do what they want about Taiwan regardless of what happens in this conflict/non conflict.

titan said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

---

Sigh.

Why?

---

Bidenite tendency to hyperbole and thinking in terms of crisis from everything from covid to this. Total inability to look at new facts.

OTOH, a united front by France, Germany, along with Eastern Europe could have real force. As Russia's "customers" if they declared a willingness to sacrifice and do without, that could hurt Russia. We then back them fully but let them lead in the point. They also have more sober leaders at the present rather than collectivist gender dimwits.

---

Titan, you are describing why you don't like Biden…which is fine…but you don't seem to answering the question as to why the US is culpable for putting 150K Russian troops on the Ukrainian border? = I didn't say that. I mean culpable in overheating the rhetoric---stoking, not cooling, things. You can't ask for better proof of that than both sides saying back off.

If you want to say Biden could be doing a better job of alliance management, or could have been more aggressive about NS2, or hasn't handled foreign policy well…sure. = Goes far beyond that. Absolutely incapable. Some of the top Pentagon come across that way too.

But if you say the US is culpable…then you have to rationalize that statement first. = No, because you were proceeding from a false reading of where the `culpable' goes too.

---

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Not a fan of your editing style there…felt awkward.

Ok…so talk to me about that…how has the Biden admin heated up the rhetoric?

If your referring to the intel releases, that's actually completely killed the Russians ability to pull off a maskirovka.

Should we not be talking about economic sanctions?

Should we not be deploying US forces to reassure NATO Allies like Poland?

Help me out here bud.

Quote:

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Should we not be deploying US forces to reassure NATO Allies like Poland?

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Interjecting just to do so but imo this is all we should do from a military perspective. If the rest of Europe wants to nut up and check Russia they can but at the end of the day we shouldn't get involved across the globe when the countries in the EU aren't willing to lead the conflict.

CharlieBrown17 said:

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China will be watching obviously, but long term China is going to do what they want about Taiwan regardless of what happens in this conflict/non conflict.

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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-11/u-s-sees-china-watching-ukraine-showdown-as-a-proxy-for-taiwan

Quote:

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The American officials said they believe Xi's government is studying the cohesion of the NATO alliance as it seeks to push back on Russian President Vladimir Putin's massing of forces near Ukraine's border. Although Putin has said he has no intention of invading Ukraine, the standoff has emerged as the biggest crisis to face the North Atlantic Treaty Organization since the Balkans conflict in the 1990s.

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K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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titan said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

---

titan said:

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Not so surreal. Remain rather persuaded we are a culpable element in this unfolding crisis and in no way part of the solution.

---

Sigh.

Why?

---

Bidenite tendency to hyperbole and thinking in terms of crisis from everything from covid to this. Total inability to look at new facts.

OTOH, a united front by France, Germany, along with Eastern Europe could have real force. As Russia's "customers" if they declared a willingness to sacrifice and do without, that could hurt Russia. We then back them fully but let them lead in the point. They also have more sober leaders at the present rather than collectivist gender dimwits.

---

Titan, you are describing why you don't like Biden…which is fine…but you don't seem to answering the question as to why the US is culpable for putting 150K Russian troops on the Ukrainian border? = I didn't say that. I mean culpable in overheating the rhetoric---stoking, not cooling, things. You can't ask for better proof of that than both sides saying back off.

If you want to say Biden could be doing a better job of alliance management, or could have been more aggressive about NS2, or hasn't handled foreign policy well…sure. = Goes far beyond that. Absolutely incapable. Some of the top Pentagon come across that way too.

But if you say the US is culpable…then you have to rationalize that statement first. = No, because you were proceeding from a false reading of where the `culpable' goes too.

---

---

Not a fan of your editing style there…felt awkward.

Ok…so talk to me about that…how has the Biden admin heated up the rhetoric?

If your referring to the intel releases, that's actually completely killed the Russians ability to pull off a maskirovka.

Should we not be talking about economic sanctions?

Should we not be deploying US forces to reassure NATO Allies like Poland?

Help me out here bud.

---

The Biden admin has not once but twice given gobblegook answer that could be taken as a greenlight by Putin. A four-square unambiguous statement that any incursion would be opposed by simply arming the other might have been more than enough to just change the picture. But you have to do it before, in order to prevent it become a war. If you do it after, you run the real risk of it being no longer confined to proxy. Its easier to make a four-square stance, before an invasion.

Second, as said above, Europe MUST lead. They are the addict weakening our hand--- not ourselves. They have to let us know how much blood and sacrifice they are willing to put forward. Germany especially because a crash program to supply Europe will have to be in the works. Everyone trying to enforce covid stuff arrested and removed ---- supplies will have to flow quick and faster than even 2019 days if Europe's pipe gets turned off. Things like that.

And to be clear, talking about troop or arming inventions, not sanctions. Those should be being applied right now --- as in take effect the moment the border is crossed.

And I do agree with the deployment of forces to NATO allies like Poland. They must be hardened.

CharlieBrown17 said:

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Quote:

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Should we not be deploying US forces to reassure NATO Allies like Poland?

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Interjecting just to do so but imo this is all we should do from a military perspective. If the rest of Europe wants to nut up and check Russia they can but at the end of the day we shouldn't get involved across the globe when the countries in the EU aren't willing to lead the conflict.

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I agree…economic sanctions for sure…but no more beyond that. We need to keep our powder dry for China.

Mainly because we need to kill the chicken to scare the monkeys as it relates to China/Taiwan.