That whole article is

-one girl saying she was sexually assaulted by one guy and

-the same girl saying another girl told her other girls were sexually assaulted by the same one guy.

ttu_85 said:

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YouBet said:

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The girl I briefly dated at Fish Camp and after was the best power drinker I've ever met. No one else has ever come close. She was about 5'11 and really thin and she could put down an 18 pack nightly. Pretty incredible. She transferred to Texas after our freshman year.

She just wasn't a fit at A&M. Extreme wild child. The type of person that ends up on hard drugs. Hope she turned out ok.

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She did

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Oh damn....long lost friends. It's a Texags miracle.

I enjoyed Fish Camp in 1985 and I'm still in touch with my group leaders (we did NOT call them Mom and Dad!) and my cabin counselor. It was just like any other retreat type thing - met a bunch of people and got away from home for a few days.

None of the leaders had any power of any kind over me. That and the Mom/Dad thing is just creepy.

So brave of you to come out! There, someone had to say it!

Does The Batt know that very few Aggies give a crap what they think?

UncleNateFitch said:

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That whole article is

-one girl saying she was sexually assaulted by one guy and

-the same girl saying another girl told her other girls were sexually assaulted by the same one guy.

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Buy it started a conversation.

I was a Fish Camp counselor in the 80s. The DG mom and dad thing is beyond creepy.

With the size of A&M is now, it only increases the chance of some random creep being involved. It doesn't mean the whole thing is corrupt.

However, I've heard Fish Camp has changed a lot. The counselors were dressed up in weird costumes when my son got dropped off.

Not surprised by any of this, back in the 90s when I was at A&M it seemed like one of the main motivations for guys to become Fish Camp counselors was to hook up with freshman or other counselors down the road. Certainly was not to endure stupid skits and sing-a-longs for several days.

not gonna give that rag clicks.

it was a POS even when I went to a&m and completely out of touch with reality.

Good ol fish camp.

A crappy experience and hot girls to hit on to forget you're locked in a terrible "camp"

Any article title that contains the word "perpetuates" gets an immediate "Nope" from me.

One time...at Fish Camp...

If you're not going to bang freshmen from fish camp, why would you even go?

They say that college in general perpetuates rape culture, there for any event or organization is open to being accused of the same thing.

Yeah.... we need to go back to just simply ignoring idiots. No matter how loud they get.

UncleNateFitch said:

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ironmanag said:

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UncleNateFitch said:

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Fish camp is gay anyway. There, someone had to say it.

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You must have had a much different experience than me.

It was the opposite of gay.

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I'm just bitter because they wouldn't let me use tobacco products, which I was pretty fond of when I was 18.

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You must be after they canned Cooking-with-Copenhagen skit then. Man what a riot. RIP.

My wife was a director and even she agrees that there are substantial problems with Fish Camp. 1) Calling the DG leaders "mom" and "dad". 2) DGs in and of themselves. 3) The amount of time that camps spend "bonding" before camp. 4) The process for selecting counselors. 5) The process for picking directors. 6) There is no way to force outgoing chairs and directors to stick around and help train the incoming chairs and directors.

I would add that the lack of continuity in leadership is a major problem. Each year, the new director staff spends a lot of time changing things that the previous director staff changed. Even when they do not decide to change the changes, they still have to spend time being read into the decision making process that went into making the changes.

She and her group made a lot of changes that I think benefitted the organization. Some of those are still in place today but some have been undone (often for the worse). An example is that before her, there was no process on how to select namesakes for camps. It basically became a popularity contest and directors choosing arbitrarily and often based on who they knew.

For example, Will Jardell (sp?) being a namesake for a camp was a ridiculous decision. Up until then, what he had done for A&M was be a student, be a Fish Camp director, and spread limited publicity for A&M by being on America's Next Top Model. But he had friends who were directors who nominated and chose him.

Now there is a selection committee made up of various university staff who evaluate each nomination form with a rubric and grade them. The highest scoring nominations are selected. But even this could be undone as soon as any Director Staff decided they didn't like it.

TL;DR: Fish Camp has problems and even former directors agree but changing those problems will require substantial changes to how Fish Camp is run.

What you describe is the same reason Bonfire failed and ended tragically in 1999. There was too much incremental change each year and little continuity to the point of failure. The university struggled with how much to step in and take charge versus how much to keep it a student led event. We are supposed to be training young people how to organize and lead, and sometimes that means allowing mistakes to happen. However, a mistake by a small number of students should not lead to a massive organizational and traditional failure.

Ag CPA said:

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Not surprised by any of this, back in the 90s when I was at A&M it seemed like one of the main motivations for guys to become Fish Camp counselors was to hook up with freshman or other counselors down the road. Certainly was not to endure stupid skits and sing-a-longs for several days.

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I'm pretty sure that describes >75% of male decision making at that age, not just in fish camp.

Burdizzo said:

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What you describe is the same reason Bonfire failed and ended tragically in 1999. There was too much incremental change each year and little continuity to the point of failure. The university struggled with how much to step in and take charge versus how much to keep it a student led event. We are supposed to be training young people how to organize and lead, and sometimes that means allowing mistakes to happen. However, a mistake by a small number of students should not lead to a massive organizational and traditional failure.

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All Directors are supposed to write "TransDocs" or transfer documents which are to be kept throughout the years for every future Director to be able to look back on. These help with continuity on minute levels such as which vendor was used for what and why to larger scopes such as why the alcohol policy was abandoned. When my wife took over, there hadn't been any new ones written for her position in 4,5,6, maybe more years and even many that did exist were incomplete. She wrote hers for the entirety of her role (even finishing up after leaving her position) and did a really good job on them because she cared and is a major rule follower. But how do you force someone who is no longer in the organization, no longer cares to be in the organization, and may even be graduating in a couple of months to write these?

One suggestion my wife has thrown out to increase continuity is to require that the Head Director must have previously been a Director. But this poses another problem which to explain, requires explaining another problem.

My wife spent 1 year as a counselor, 1 as a chair, and 1 as a director but she was a giant exception to the all but written rule that to be a chair, you have to have been a counselor for 2 years. This meant that the only people who were able to be directors were those that spent at least 4.5 years at A&M which significantly limited the applicant pool. Sometimes 12 or fewer people would apply to be Directors and there are 7-8 Director slots. My wife's group selected many Chairs who had only been Counselors for 1 year and in doing so tried to change this unwritten rule (not sure how this has held up).

But requiring that the Head Director must have been a Director before sort of brings back this unwritten rule and limits your applicant pool.

Ultimately, I think the only possible fix is for there to be specific changes forced on Fish Camp that the current Director Staff has a say in but not a vote on. Maybe even form a committee of former Directors, Namesakes, support staff, etc. to help with these changes. I know my wife would volunteer for that in a heartbeat. Once these changes are implemented, they must never be allowed to be undone solely by a Director's Staff.

At the same time, the University must take the power to implement these changes but not get greedy and keep the power. Which may be the biggest hurdle of all and something that I believe has happened in the Corps which is student run but by students who, at best, have the Commandant's Staff breathing down their necks and, at worst, are coerced with contracts and leadership positions.

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

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Ag CPA said:

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Not surprised by any of this, back in the 90s when I was at A&M it seemed like one of the main motivations for guys to become Fish Camp counselors was to hook up with freshman or other counselors down the road. Certainly was not to endure stupid skits and sing-a-longs for several days.

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I'm pretty sure that describes >75% of male decision making at that age, not just in fish camp.

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This. It used to be an unwritten rule (and may still be) that Co-Chairs and D.G. partners had to be 1 male and 1 female. My wife's group broke this and paired many guys with other guys and many girls with other girls. I am not sure if this change has continued, but before then, any guy who got in could be guaranteed to not only be paired with a girl but also that 50% of his camp would be girls.

chickencoupe16 said:

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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

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Ag CPA said:

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Not surprised by any of this, back in the 90s when I was at A&M it seemed like one of the main motivations for guys to become Fish Camp counselors was to hook up with freshman or other counselors down the road. Certainly was not to endure stupid skits and sing-a-longs for several days.

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I'm pretty sure that describes >75% of male decision making at that age, not just in fish camp.

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This. It used to be an unwritten rule (and may still be) that Co-Chairs and D.G. partners had to be 1 male and 1 female. My wife's group broke this and paired many guys with other guys and many girls with other girls. I am not sure if this change has continued, but before then, any guy who got in could be guaranteed to not only be paired with a girl but that 50% of his camp would be girls.

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Right, pretty much anything you do at that age in a coed environment is going to have an element of looking for relationships of one kind or another, but as with the rest of this lovely culture we're living in, I'd not be surprised if Fish Camp got weirder and worse in this regard.

I was a counselor for a couple of years in the mid-90's it seemed unremarkable w/r/t whatever kind of relationships it was pushing between/among the people involved. It was just another group of people to hang around with and the different camps had totally different "cultures" as you would expect based on the personalities of the people in them. It was totally up to the individual as to what you fit into and liked. I'm sure some went off the rails with behavior of all kinds, so any particular anecdote would be believable, but that had nothing to do with FC as concept.

The alcohol ban was the big deal when I was there, and it was a good example of what I'm talking about. Enforcement was spotty, with some chairs watching like a hawk itching to kick a counselor out with others setting up the parties and providing the booze.



The "mom and dad" thing must have come later, that didn't occur to us.

Dumb question, what does DG stand for? In my day it was Davis-Gary (RIP)

Burdizzo said:

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Dumb question, what does DG stand for? In my day it was Davis-Gary (RIP)

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Discussion Group. Small group within a camp, 2 counselors 10-ish freshmen.

CowboyGirl said:

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I enjoyed Fish Camp in 1985 and I'm still in touch with my group leaders (we did NOT call them Mom and Dad!) and my cabin counselor. It was just like any other retreat type thing - met a bunch of people and got away from home for a few days.

None of the leaders had any power of any kind over me. That and the Mom/Dad thing is just creepy.

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I wasn't a group leader but had a lot of girls calling me Dad.

chimpanzee said:

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chickencoupe16 said:

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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

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Ag CPA said:

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Not surprised by any of this, back in the 90s when I was at A&M it seemed like one of the main motivations for guys to become Fish Camp counselors was to hook up with freshman or other counselors down the road. Certainly was not to endure stupid skits and sing-a-longs for several days.

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I'm pretty sure that describes >75% of male decision making at that age, not just in fish camp.

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This. It used to be an unwritten rule (and may still be) that Co-Chairs and D.G. partners had to be 1 male and 1 female. My wife's group broke this and paired many guys with other guys and many girls with other girls. I am not sure if this change has continued, but before then, any guy who got in could be guaranteed to not only be paired with a girl but that 50% of his camp would be girls.

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Right, pretty much anything you do at that age in a coed environment is going to have an element of looking for relationships of one kind or another, but as with the rest of this lovely culture we're living in, I'd not be surprised if Fish Camp got weirder and worse in this regard.

I was a counselor for a couple of years in the mid-90's it seemed unremarkable w/r/t whatever kind of relationships it was pushing between/among the people involved. It was just another group of people to hang around with and the different camps had totally different "cultures" as you would expect based on the personalities of the people in them. It was totally up to the individual as to what you fit into and liked. I'm sure some went off the rails with behavior of all kinds, so any particular anecdote would be believable, but that had nothing to do with FC as concept.

The alcohol ban was the big deal when I was there, and it was a good example of what I'm talking about. Enforcement was spotty, with some chairs watching like a hawk itching to kick a counselor out with others setting up the parties and providing the booze.



The "mom and dad" thing must have come later, that didn't occur to us.

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The individual cultures of different camps is absolutely true. In fact most Co-Chairs try to build a specific camp culture when they select counselors. The problem is that they are going off of word of mouth from mutual acquaintances, an application, a scoresheet from a 10 minute interview that they most likely did not conduct, and any social media stalking that they can do. And then, selection is done draft style so once you've selected your first ~15 counselors everyone you take after that, you likely haven't actually reviewed. A lot of the later picks in a lot of camps wind up being based on their level of attractiveness.

Went in 2008. The writing was on the wall for this to happen. Everyone's hormones raging and away from home and "on your own" for the first time ever. Driving a bunch of 18 year olds to some random camp for a few days with all sorts of mixers, late night shenanigans and parties. I felt like the counselors were way to into themselves and walked around like gods, "hey look how cool we are, call me daddy too".

Every dude wanted to be a fish camp counselor because you could see how infatuated the freshmen girls were with them. Being a counselor was an easy way to put in a position of power over a bunch of teenagers who don't know right from wrong. I will say my counselors seem genuine though.

Two weeks later I went to FOW and basically never had the time for my fish camp anyways. I actually met my pisshead at fish camp.

"Do you cogitate that your counselor introducing me to you at fish camp was a good idea?"

I went to FOW in 2002 and often felt violated

ive been sexually assaulted by a girl twice in my life, once in cancun and the other by a fish camp counselor. of course i didnt mind it either time

Walt Luddiger said:

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ive been sexually assaulted by a girl twice in my life, once in cancun and the other by a fish camp counselor. of course i didnt mind it either time

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Okay Claytie

MarathonAg12 said:

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Walt Luddiger said:

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ive been sexually assaulted by a girl twice in my life, once in cancun and the other by a fish camp counselor. of course i didnt mind it either time

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Okay Claytie

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According to the article I can't give consent if I'm intoxicated so I, along with most everyone else on here I'm sure, have been sexually assaulted hundreds of times.

chickencoupe16 said:

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My wife's group broke this and paired many guys with other guys and many girls with other girls. I am not sure if this change has continued ...

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It has, although it's clear the preference is still for co-chair partners to be male/female.

chickencoupe16 said:

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The individual cultures of different camps is absolutely true. In fact most Co-Chairs try to build a specific camp culture when they select counselors. The problem is that they are going off of word of mouth from mutual acquaintances, an application, a scoresheet from a 10 minute interview that they most likely did not conduct, and any social media stalking that they can do. And then, selection is done draft style so once you've selected your first ~15 counselors everyone you take after that, you likely haven't actually reviewed. A lot of the later picks in a lot of camps wind up being based on their level of attractiveness.

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Never hooked up with anyone myself, freshman or counselor, I guess I got through on my merits!

pacecar02 said:

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Never did fishcamp......seemed weird

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Never needed fish camp....was red ass before I got there.