Class action suits take forfreakin'ever, though. Years and years. It will likely be after the 2024 election before there is any resolution, assuming it doesn't get kicked out at some point.Quote:
That's my whole point - Lindell can't prosecute anyone. Maybe, he can help some in that case hawg posted earlier, but no one from Dominion will go to jail in that case.
Look at AZ - they did the audit, gave the state Senate a report, and now it's referred to the AZ AG for investigation/prosecution. That should be how we go about it and pass some new voting procedures.
*****OFFICIAL ELECTION DAY THREAD*****
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Last: 2 yr ago by Whistle Pig
Thanks for posting that. Does a good job of assembling various sources together.
From my own research into Runbeck, they are responsible for printing all of the ballots for Maricopa County (among many other counties across the country). They use a voter database that is provided to them by either the election officials OR the voting system vendor, such as Dominion.
For ballots that are supposed to be mailed out (formerly mostly absentee ballots until 2020) are assigned a unique bar code for each voter. That bar code goes on the outer envelope and is not reflected anywhere else, certainly not on any ballots.The ballots are folded by a machine and stuffed into the inner and outer envelopes, then sealed. Runbeck delivers them to the postal service for mailing.
When the ballots are mailed back, they are assembled in the sorting area of the postal services and then delivered to Runbeck, not the counting center. Runbeck then conducts two scans (or maybe just one scan but for two purposes) to look for that unique voter bar code AND to create a digital image of the signature block for signature verification. (That's what Jan Bryant didn't know, nor apparently State Senator Finchem.)
Those images are then sent electronically to county election officials to verify the signatures and if they are unable to do so, Runbeck is alerted to pull those ballots (still in envelopes out and keep them separate before delivery to the counting center for further review.
This creates two fatal flaws in the security of signature verification. First election officials are not looking at the actual envelope that contains the ballot, they are looking at an insecure image of the envelope. As we saw during the presentation by Dr. Shiva, those images can be manipulated with stamped "approved" messages appearing to be behind what is in reality a solid black triangle pointing to the signature block. On the images he saw it was a triangle outlined in black not solid
Second problem was there is no way to verify that Runbeck actually segregated the unverified ballots or just mixed them in. We know in an election where the # of mail in ballots increased by over 50%, the number of signature verification issues DECREASED by over 60% from 2016.
That is counter-intuitive. For its part, Runbeck swears all of their processes are fully auditable but it doesn't appear anyone has taken them up on it, to date.
From my own research into Runbeck, they are responsible for printing all of the ballots for Maricopa County (among many other counties across the country). They use a voter database that is provided to them by either the election officials OR the voting system vendor, such as Dominion.
For ballots that are supposed to be mailed out (formerly mostly absentee ballots until 2020) are assigned a unique bar code for each voter. That bar code goes on the outer envelope and is not reflected anywhere else, certainly not on any ballots.The ballots are folded by a machine and stuffed into the inner and outer envelopes, then sealed. Runbeck delivers them to the postal service for mailing.
When the ballots are mailed back, they are assembled in the sorting area of the postal services and then delivered to Runbeck, not the counting center. Runbeck then conducts two scans (or maybe just one scan but for two purposes) to look for that unique voter bar code AND to create a digital image of the signature block for signature verification. (That's what Jan Bryant didn't know, nor apparently State Senator Finchem.)
Those images are then sent electronically to county election officials to verify the signatures and if they are unable to do so, Runbeck is alerted to pull those ballots (still in envelopes out and keep them separate before delivery to the counting center for further review.
This creates two fatal flaws in the security of signature verification. First election officials are not looking at the actual envelope that contains the ballot, they are looking at an insecure image of the envelope. As we saw during the presentation by Dr. Shiva, those images can be manipulated with stamped "approved" messages appearing to be behind what is in reality a solid black triangle pointing to the signature block. On the images he saw it was a triangle outlined in black not solid
Second problem was there is no way to verify that Runbeck actually segregated the unverified ballots or just mixed them in. We know in an election where the # of mail in ballots increased by over 50%, the number of signature verification issues DECREASED by over 60% from 2016.
That is counter-intuitive. For its part, Runbeck swears all of their processes are fully auditable but it doesn't appear anyone has taken them up on it, to date.
Need your expertise. This is in reference to Dr. Shiva's inspection of the ballot envelope images. The County tried to explain the anomalies he found away but he's skeptical. Would love to have your thoughts.
We'll start with this image that Shiva had flagged.
Now onto to other questions.
Thoughts? TIA.
We'll start with this image that Shiva had flagged.
Let's stop there. Were the envelope images also compressed when delivered to the signature verification people from Runbeck? How would we find that factoid out?Quote:
A poor explanation from the county raised even more questions from Dr. Shiva.
Apparently, the county compressed the images before delivery to the Senate instead of giving the real unaltered envelope images.
Now onto to other questions.
Dr. Shiva’s response to Maricopa County’s explanation to the envelopes. pic.twitter.com/1rlsmLZeCU
— Christina Bobb (@christina_bobb) October 2, 2021
Quote:
Dr. Shiva's letter to Randy Pullen:Dear Randy,Quote:
Arizona State Senate c/o Randy Pullen
Re: Response to County Explanation of Stamp "Behind" Envelope Triangle
Thank you for sharing with me the "County Explanation" concerning the anomaly EchoMail detected of the "VERIFIED & APPROVED MCTEC" stamp appearing "behind" the triangle. Their explanation stated:
"Since the scan is compressed the envelope only takes the outline of things like an arrow or large font. So the stamp was simply stamped over The Black arrow and in a scan it appears to be under it."
This explanation is somewhat cryptic, and our follow up herein is, therefore, based on our interpretation of their explanation (see I). Moreover, their explanation raises many new questions, and provides an opportunity for further dialog with the County to understand the specific Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) of the image processing methods and what steps they follow in the systems for Early Voting Ballot (EVB) return envelope processing.
LinkQuote:
. EchoMail's Interpretation of County Explanation
EchoMail's interpretation of the County's explanation is: When a stamp is placed over a blackened region, on any of the triangles on the EVB return envelope (as shown in Figure 1), image compression replaces non-white pixels in those triangle areas with white pixels. And, this image compression process leads to the observed anomaly.
II. Questions and Concerns in Response to County's Explanation
1) What is most concerning is to find out now, for the first time since EchoMail was engaged for this audit, that the images EchoMail received are a compressed version of some original version. This means that modifications took place e.g. compression on the original images that were created from scanning of the voter's original EVB return envelopes.
2) Are the pre-compression EVB return envelope images available?
3) How many sets of EVB return envelope images with varying compression exist?
4) Is there an entire set of EVB return envelope images that are high resolution?
5) Are the original EVB return envelopes available for inspection?
6) Is a virtual i.e. digital "VERIFIED & APPROVED MCTEC" stamp being applied to the original high-resolution EVB return envelope images?
7) Are the EVB return envelope images encrypted when saved?
8) What other image processing and modifications takes place on the original EVB return envelope image?
9) Are the EVB return envelope images stored in one central repository?
10)Who has access to the EVB return envelope images?Quote:
1)What modifications can be applied to the EVB return envelope images besides the "VERIFIED & APPROVED MCTEC" stamp?
Quote:
12)Can signatures be removed and altered in the Signature Region of the EVB return envelope images?
13)Can any region of the EVB return envelope image be altered?
14)What is the Chain of Custody on alterations to the EVB return envelope images?
15)Is there revision tracking enabled on EVB return envelope image modifications?
16)What other image processing occurred on the EVB return envelope images prior to EchoMail receiving them?
17) Why are not all the bona fide i.e. "Verified and Counted" EVB return envelope images stamped with "VERFIED & APPROVED MCTEC?"
18)Given EchoMail has access to EVB return envelope images, where the stamp appears both behind and in front of a triangle, how does the County's explanation resolve such examples? Do different image compression settings exist?
19)What is the exact process and Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) from receipt of the original EVB return envelope from the voter, to scanning, to stamping, to storage, and compression of the EVB return envelope images?
EchoMail appreciates the response from the County. We look forward to next steps, once we receive answers to the above questions.
Thoughts? TIA.
BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
Yippee!! Best news during this otherwise dismal Saturday.will25u said:BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
I wonder if some officials will be wishing the county hadn't tweeted their defense.will25u said:BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
Screw Aggie Football, this is awesome news!aggiehawg said:Yippee!! Best news during this otherwise dismal Saturday.will25u said:BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
Is this real? Don't charges like that at that level really require substantive evidence? Does this mean they have it???
hope the AG follows through. Will be interesting to see which election officials or if all of them.will25u said:BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
Sorry for the delayed response. I took the entire weekend off from all things tech. No computers, no football (thank God), and no cell. It was everything I thought it could be.....but I digress.
My first thought in all of what you posted was, "unbelievable." What is the point of sending over altered/compressed images? Hell, it is possible that a number of the questionable signatures could have been light enough to not be read when compressed, as in, they might have actual signatures on the high-res scans (assuming taken and not destroyed).
As I have said before, all of this could be verified. Pick an envelope and run it through the process. Compare each step to what was handed over and validate. So insane this has to be so difficult. The first piece of legislation created should be that the MCBOE is required, by law, to comply AND ASSIST in any future audits. Failure to do so could result in loss of some/all funding, termination of staff, and or legal action against any/all levels of leadership.
As to Runbeck, I couldn't find anywhere that states how those image files are stored or delivered. This would be a question which would need to be answered by MCBOE and Runbeck.
My first thought in all of what you posted was, "unbelievable." What is the point of sending over altered/compressed images? Hell, it is possible that a number of the questionable signatures could have been light enough to not be read when compressed, as in, they might have actual signatures on the high-res scans (assuming taken and not destroyed).
As I have said before, all of this could be verified. Pick an envelope and run it through the process. Compare each step to what was handed over and validate. So insane this has to be so difficult. The first piece of legislation created should be that the MCBOE is required, by law, to comply AND ASSIST in any future audits. Failure to do so could result in loss of some/all funding, termination of staff, and or legal action against any/all levels of leadership.
As to Runbeck, I couldn't find anywhere that states how those image files are stored or delivered. This would be a question which would need to be answered by MCBOE and Runbeck.
What I STILL don't understand, is why the HUGE pushback on doing an actual audit? And the BS line of it costing the taxpayers too much money is again, BS. Government entities are spending out the wazoo, and not caring about deficits.
This is why companies spend the time doing audits. To figure out where their procedures are lacking, so they can get BETTER.
PS: I wonder if CTCL/Facebook would help with funding the audit. HAHA... What am I saying.
This is why companies spend the time doing audits. To figure out where their procedures are lacking, so they can get BETTER.
PS: I wonder if CTCL/Facebook would help with funding the audit. HAHA... What am I saying.
The level of waste fraud and abuse is on par with the legislators that benefit from these elections. They don't want the antiseptic. They want the stays quo to remain, same as they don't want term limits.
Has the AG discussed this with Thermal Dope?will25u said:BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
Thanks for the response, first off.Quote:
My first thought in all of what you posted was, "unbelievable." What is the point of sending over altered/compressed images? Hell, it is possible that a number of the questionable signatures could have been light enough to not be read when compressed, as in, they might have actual signatures on the high-res scans (assuming taken and not destroyed).
Second, that was my question too. Why do that? Is there a legit reason for it?
Although I know Jovan has his own data on a microscopic level to still go through, those pictures were of the ballots, not the envelopes. The envelopes were never made available during the audit and the images of the envelopes were only delivered very late in the process for Dr. Shiva to analyze.
I would prefer for Jovan to have had the chance to use his processes on the actual envelopes as well.
In other news, Raffensperger opened an "investigation" into missing chain of custody documents on ballots from drop boxes in DeKalb County.
LinkQuote:
he Georgia Secretary of State's office has opened an investigation into the handling of drop box ballots last November in one of the state's Democratic strongholds following a media report that there were problems with chain of custody documentation in DeKalb County.
The probe, confirmed in a statement to Just the News, comes at a tumultuous time for DeKalb County, whose elections director was placed on an extended leave of absence two weeks ago. Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger's office said the probe is ongoing and the county is cooperating.
"The Secretary of State's office has opened an investigation into the drop box chain of custody documentation for Dekalb County," Raffensperger's office told Just the News. "The investigation includes not only whether Dekalb County properly complied with the documentation required by the State Election Board but also whether the actual procedures used by Dekalb adequately protected chain of custody for ballots returned to drop boxes."
A spokesman for DeKalb County did not immediately return calls or respond to emails from Just the News last week or Monday seeking comment.
The announcement of the probe comes less than a month after the Georgia Star news site reported that 43,907 of the 61,731 absentee ballots deposited in drop boxes in the November 2020 presidential election in DeKalb County 72% were counted in official tallies certified by the county and the state though they had not met the chain of custody requirements set by the Georgia State Election Board on July 1, 2020.
Raffensperger's office said it did not receive most counties' chain of custody forms for drop box ballots until January and February of this year, well after the election. Since that time, the office has found problems with a handful of counties, mostly small, rural and Republican strongholds.
"As we announced earlier this year, Coffee, Grady, and Taylor counties all failed to complete any ballot transfer documents," the office told Just the News. "They were referred for investigation. In Stephens County, the elections director emptied an absentee ballot drop box on her own instead of with the two people that the State Election Board rule required. Stephen County was referred to the Attorney General's office by the State Election Board."
Is it just me or should those chain of custody documents be examined before those envelopes are opened and the ballots disseminated to be counted? The whole point of chain of custody documents is for them to accompany those batches of ballots as they go through the process, right? Why would they ever be separated? Makes no sense to me.
yeah, it doesn't make any sense because the audit report says Biden won a recount.captkirk said:Has the AG discussed this with Thermal Dope?will25u said:BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
You can only commit fraud if it changes the outcome right?
Why attack the person? Attack his message if you wish, but why attack the person?Thermal Pope said:Ah well if DavidChapman141 with this 7 real followers says so. It must be true. Sounds like desperate coping.captkirk said:Has the AG discussed this with Thermal Dope?will25u said:
Great profile pic by the way:
Looks like a real serious heavy hitter.
No, the Maricopa Board of Supervisors won't be charged with any crimes and they didn't commit any crimes.
Grow up.
Just a reminder of the big picture. Joe said the quiet part out loud. The Left and concerned fake moderates don't care.
I think you already know the answer to your question, Will.will25u said:
What I STILL don't understand, is why the HUGE pushback on doing an actual audit? And the BS line of it costing the taxpayers too much money is again, BS. Government entities are spending out the wazoo, and not caring about deficits.
This is why companies spend the time doing audits. To figure out where their procedures are lacking, so they can get BETTER.
PS: I wonder if CTCL/Facebook would help with funding the audit. HAHA... What am I saying.
The reason for pushback against doing a full audit is that somebody has something they want to stay hidden, because it is incriminating and might unravel the outcome that they wanted.
Last week the AZ Attorney General informed the county to preserve materials/data related to the election for any possible future litigation and related investigations. However, I have not seen anything beyond that reported out of the AG office.will25u said:
As much as I would like to believe what Chapman is saying is true, I have yet to see this reported elsewhere. In light of this, why should I believe Chapman? He simply says "BREAKING" and provides no statement/source/etc beyond that. Better yet, why do some on this board seem to rather unquestionably assume it is factual?
This guy just seems to be jumping out ahead of things for likes. Since we often highlight the left's failed attempts at factual journalism and legitimate "sources", shouldn't we do the same here? A quick search of this guy's twitter is easy to undertake.
Every indication is that their procedures are working as they intended.will25u said:
What I STILL don't understand, is why the HUGE pushback on doing an actual audit? And the BS line of it costing the taxpayers too much money is again, BS. Government entities are spending out the wazoo, and not caring about deficits.
This is why companies spend the time doing audits. To figure out where their procedures are lacking, so they can get BETTER.
No, I don't care what CNN or MSNBC said this time
Ad Lunam
Ad Lunam
Why did you skirt my first question?Thermal Pope said:He's making a claim - with no evidence - based on his personal knowledge or authority. He's a nobody who apparently lives in Illinois. How would he know anything?Quote:
Why attack the person? Attack his message if you wish, but why attack the person?
Grow up.
WHY did you attack him as a person?
The whole thing s a charade. We all know there's fraud; CMs, lefties, and establishment hacks all know it to. The sad thing is a large portion of the country seems to still be playing democrat republican team sports when its really the establishment vs. the plebian. Those on here mouthing off against audits are too stupid to realize they are supporting their own enslavement.TexAgs91 said:Every indication is that their procedures are working as they intended.will25u said:
What I STILL don't understand, is why the HUGE pushback on doing an actual audit? And the BS line of it costing the taxpayers too much money is again, BS. Government entities are spending out the wazoo, and not caring about deficits.
This is why companies spend the time doing audits. To figure out where their procedures are lacking, so they can get BETTER.
The county did itself no favors. The audit did produce evidence that there are serious problems with the election system without their help. Election officials SHOULD be fired. In the act of trying to protect their jobs at a minimum, they acted like a bunch of guilty people which is going to do them no good in front of a jury if it comes to that.Quote:
The election officials know these guys aren't just trying to "help them improve" the process, these guys are trying to develop evidence, whether it is the truth or not. Evidence that is, at best, going to cause them to lose their job, and at worst, drag them to court, as evidenced by the threats that AG Mark Brnovich will bring charges against them for "election fraud".
If they did nothing more than be poor performers at their jobs, they should have taken the route of cooperating and then go for more of a repentant stance. It might not save everyone's job, but it would be more likely to keep them out of jail.
Those looking for blood are a lot less interested in punishing poor performers than they are in putting fraudsters in jail.
100% yes That is the point. Without proper chain of custody, they are not legitimate votes and should be provisional until they can be verified.Quote:
Is it just me or should those chain of custody documents be examined before those envelopes are opened and the ballots disseminated to be counted? The whole point of chain of custody documents is for them to accompany those batches of ballots as they go through the process, right? Why would they ever be separated? Makes no sense to me.
Point to me anywhere where the auditors were obligated to prove and make accusations of nefarious intent. That isn't the job of auditors. That is the job of law enforcement. What the audit did prove is that the Election Board did a poor job of securing the election from improper voting which IS there responsibility. On top of that, they made it clear that they do not care if there is improper voting or they would not have acted the way they did. In anyone's book, that's going to be poor job performance at a minimum.Watermelon Man said:Perhaps I missed the point in the Ninja report where they provided any evidence of anything other than the Ninjas didn't know what they were doing. Yeah, they provided instances were people no longer lived at the address the ballots were mailed, and cases where people with the same name were registered at more than one location. Did they ever show that even a single one of these instances was an example of nefarious intent or that the BoE had anything to do with them?American Hardwood said:The county did itself no favors. The audit did produce evidence that there are serious problems with the election system without their help. Election officials SHOULD be fired. In the act of trying to protect their jobs at a minimum, they acted like a bunch of guilty people which is going to do them no good in fronQuote:
The election officials know these guys aren't just trying to "help them improve" the process, these guys are trying to develop evidence, whether it is the truth or not. Evidence that is, at best, going to cause them to lose their job, and at worst, drag them to court, as evidenced by the threats that AG Mark Brnovich will bring charges against them for "election fraud".
t of a jury if it comes to that.
If they did nothing more than be poor performers at their jobs, they should have taken the route of cooperating and then go for more of a repentant stance. It might not save everyone's job, but it would be more likely to keep them out of jail.
Those looking for blood are a lot less interested in punishing poor performers than they are in putting fraudsters in jail.
I didn't think so.
The fact is, the audit did not show that anyone on the BoE did not do their jobs (assuming these Ninjas knew what the job of the BoE is). The Ninja report did not provide any evidence that the BoE were poor performers at their jobs. That is, unless you believe the job of the BoE was to make sure Loser Trump received more votes than Biden (who won). Just to make it plain, that is not their job. That would be the job of the Trump Campaign managers.
And, nobody is going to jail. There were no laws broken. There seems to be some issues with subpoenas, but I suspect the BoE has very good lawyers and in the end, the court will not find any issue on how they handled the subpoenas.
Those looking for blood only want blood. They want SOMEBODY punished, whether or not there is any evidence. These are people who will never believe that Biden received more votes than Loser Trump. That is, they have admitted that they won't be convinced by facts if those facts do not agree with their preconceived ideas in their own little world.
Why indeed? Show some dignity Thermal Pope.will25u said:Why attack the person? Attack his message if you wish, but why attack the person?Thermal Pope said:Ah well if DavidChapman141 with this 7 real followers says so. It must be true. Sounds like desperate coping.captkirk said:Has the AG discussed this with Thermal Dope?will25u said:BREAKING: Arizona AG Brnovich is expected to bring charges against Maricopa County election officials for election fraud.
— David Chapman (@davidchapman141) October 2, 2021
Great profile pic by the way:
Looks like a real serious heavy hitter.
No, the Maricopa Board of Supervisors won't be charged with any crimes and they didn't commit any crimes.
Grow up.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3152743/524
Quote:
blacksox is banned for trolling last night.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3230515/replies/60255302
This morning, a new sock account magically appears and resumes trolling.
What a coincidence...
Flag the troll and let STAFF take care of it
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3152743/525
Quote:
Thermal pipe is a prime example of why any party serious about winning elections needs to learn to cheat better.
Quote:
No kidding. This guy sucks.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3152743/526Quote:
. . . Senile old corrupt career politicians who are owned by Marxists is exactly what America was so enthusiastic about because that's what we need right now. I wonder what Thermal Pope gets for the hard work and heroics..
Quote:
. . .
You are the lunatic.
. . .
Quote:
Ahh, so Thermal Dope is in a protected class. My comment toward he/she/it was deleted. How interesting.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3152743/526Quote:
Trying to rationalize with either thermal or Eric is like trying to piss into a 40 mph wind without getting any on you…either way, it's not an efficient process.
Quote:
Eric76 likes the smell of his own farts more than anyone else I can think of on f16. Thermal Pope's arguments and style sure smell similar. I'm of the mind that Eric doesn't like getting picked on so much when he's flying solo kamikaze missions to ruin threads so he socked himself up a new friend.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3152743/528Quote:
yeah, and commies like thermal pope . . .
Quote:
Sorry, haven't been paying attention the past few days, who's sock is this Thermal Pope character?
Quote:
No idea. So incapable of clicking on links to actually read the material being presented, it could be many of our resident CM's.
Quote:
just a run of the mill integrity, freedom, and America-hating communist fighting the good fight to ignore anything questionable about elections so he can be a hero for the marxists that are actively destroying this thing.
Quote:
. . . Since you are too lazy and incurious about the information, feel no obligation to reply to you further.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3152743/529Quote:
What's your former user name that you are so embarrassed to continue using? Or, were you perma banned for being wrong all the time?
This one even had an angry face to go with the ominous threat.
Quote:
Let's face it, thermal and all his socks are full blooded commies. They are still trying to hide it but it is out in the open to the rest of us. A day of reckoning is coming.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3152743/530Quote:
Quite literally NO ONE in this thread finds your input valuable. Go start your own thread about how election fraud is fake and you can rant to all your friends about it. You are useless clutter. Go away.
Clearly Thermal Pope has some explaining to do to the board for his personal attack on the random twitter account.Quote:
Has the AG discussed this with Thermal Dope?
Quote:
Why did you skirt my first question?
WHY did you attack him as a person?
That's a funny response. But, if Thermal is a sock for one of the posters mentioned, I'd wager that just about every poster you quoted has tried to engage those posters in a meaningful way at some point or another, and has concluded how pointless it can be. There is no real discourse so in the end you just have to quit banging your head against the wall and denounce him whack-a-mole style instead whenever he pops up. Or better yet, ignore.
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