I wonder if they will do a short test of BN1 with a mass simulator on top. It would have to be a hell of a mass simulator though.

Mathguy64 said:

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I wonder if they will do a short test of BN1 with a mass simulator on top. It would have to be a hell of a mass simulator though.

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My question would be, what do you think they would learn from it? They're not going to fire off 28 Raptors on a hop, they'd have to be throttled so low that there would be all sorts of issues. And they've proven the gimbaling and control capabilities of Raptor with SN5/6, as well as 8-10. So I'm not really sure what a hop does for them.

My other question is how are they gonna land this thing? Elon's saying they want to "catch" it, but they haven't even started on that infrastructure, so are they going to put legs on the first few boosters? They need to do something, because as I recall the Starship isn't capable of orbit from sea level. Do they just launch and let the booster fall in the ocean?

Maximus_Meridius said:

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Mathguy64 said:

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I wonder if they will do a short test of BN1 with a mass simulator on top. It would have to be a hell of a mass simulator though.

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My question would be, what do you think they would learn from it? They're not going to fire off 28 Raptors on a hop, they'd have to be throttled so low that there would be all sorts of issues. And they've proven the gimbaling and control capabilities of Raptor with SN5/6, as well as 8-10. So I'm not really sure what a hop does for them.

My other question is how are they gonna land this thing? Elon's saying they want to "catch" it, but they haven't even started on that infrastructure, so are they going to put legs on the first few boosters? They need to do something, because as I recall the Starship isn't capable of orbit from sea level. Do they just launch and let the booster fall in the ocean?

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Is stage 1 meant to be reusable?

Yes, stage 1 will be reusable. I imagine they'll use the same legs they have now while they're figuring out the more permanent solution.

I'd bet they'll hop with just a few raptors for now.

Everyone is expecting the landings for superheavy to be a little more "normal" since it'll basically be a bigger version of what they do with Falcon 9's first stage right now.

bmks270 said:

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Maximus_Meridius said:

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Mathguy64 said:

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I wonder if they will do a short test of BN1 with a mass simulator on top. It would have to be a hell of a mass simulator though.

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My question would be, what do you think they would learn from it? They're not going to fire off 28 Raptors on a hop, they'd have to be throttled so low that there would be all sorts of issues. And they've proven the gimbaling and control capabilities of Raptor with SN5/6, as well as 8-10. So I'm not really sure what a hop does for them.

My other question is how are they gonna land this thing? Elon's saying they want to "catch" it, but they haven't even started on that infrastructure, so are they going to put legs on the first few boosters? They need to do something, because as I recall the Starship isn't capable of orbit from sea level. Do they just launch and let the booster fall in the ocean?

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Is stage 1 meant to be reusable?

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Yes. The full stack is intended to be reusable.

I'd expect the flight profile to include a handful of raptors to light during liftoff, but that the remaining raptors cycle throughout the hop.

Just a wild guess - I would expect they want to understand how the harmonics work when all 28 are lit. Maybe they climb to a safe altitude prior to starting them all.

Still blows my mind thinking about 28 Raptors. That thing is going to FLY.

Malachi Constant said:

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I'd expect the flight profile to include a handful of raptors to light during liftoff, but that the remaining raptors cycle throughout the hop.

Just a wild guess - I would expect they want to understand how the harmonics work when all 28 are lit. Maybe they climb to a safe altitude prior to starting them all.

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In the end they have do mission simulation test launch with all engines and with a full payload and both stages. That will be something to see.

It seems kind of wild they are using so many engines, but I guess it saves on development costs.

Decay said:

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Still blows my mind thinking about 28 Raptors. That thing is going to FLY DEAFEN SPI.

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FYI

bthotugigem05 said:

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Decay said:

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Still blows my mind thinking about 28 Raptors. That thing is going to FLY DEAFEN SPI.

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FYI

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We might hear it in DFW

Decay said:

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bthotugigem05 said:

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Decay said:

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Still blows my mind thinking about 28 Raptors. That thing is going to FLY DEAFEN SPI.

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FYI

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We might hear it in DFW

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I've been at the press complex at Kennedy for a Falcon 9 launch. The noise was incredible, you could almost feel it more than you could hear it. The press complex is roughly the same distance from SLC-40 as SPI is from Boca Chica.

There will be three times as many engines, every single one of which produces more than twice the thrust of the Merlin engines on the Falcon 9.

It's going to be biblical and I wouldn't miss it for the world.

I'll be shocked if they launch with 28 raptors. The Starship prototypes are flying with 3 of 6. Of course the others are vacuum optimized but still.

I wonder how it'll compare to the Saturn V, did they ever take noise measurements on those launches?

Yes, it's one of the loudest noises ever produced by humans, 204dB.

At the press complex I think it was around 120-130dB

Mathguy64 said:

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I'll be shocked if they launch with 28 raptors. The Starship prototypes are flying with 3 of 6. Of course the others are vacuum optimized but still.

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For testing, sure. But when it's flying production missions I don't see why they wouldn't light them all. Otherwise why even have them, you know?

Starship has two different roles so it has vac and sea-level engines. The booster has one (very large) role...

I personally don't think they'll ever launch a fully-engined superheavy from Boca Chica, I think It'll be at sea

This page has some really good photos from the launch
https://files.keavon.com/-/-p-/starship-sn10/index.html

i.e.

They're calling for two launch mounts and allegedly a pair ofmfuel farms.

TFR is in place for possible launch Monday, but without a test fire it probably isn't going to happen. CH4 tank is now on BN1 as well (but not the LOX tank that takes it to 70 meters tall...)

Interesting that Elon confirms they keep struggling on the re-lights, with damage to the raptors being indicated as to why the green plume has been spotted including on SN10 during descent. I would think this is something they could simulate on a test stand to figure it out (unless it's due to the whole rapid 90 degree spin, which I think he indicated it is when he said one of the new baffles in the header tank had basically acted like a straw, and drawn the helium into the combustion flow which might have led to this).

He said it was the ullage issue in the flip causing the problem, id think a test stand would be very hard to build to simulate that.

Yeah, it's sloshing under the g-loads in the flip. Be aLOT of test stand to stimulate that. Very likely to figure out with disposable prototypes in flight.

Ag_of_08 said:

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He said it was the ullage issue in the flip causing the problem, id think a test stand would be very hard to build to simulate that.

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Why test on a stand if you can just test in the air every few weeks?

There are ways to test a 90-degree flip with flow demand from a raptor start up (simulated) from a header tank, though. This could certainly be done, without necessitating flipping an entire starship (on a test stand or in the sky).

They're now on the third iteration of header tank baffles/changes relative to the ullage problems on re-light, and it's great that they can throw together these entire ships so quickly but I am not sure in this case they're doing it as...prudently (pick your own verb) as they could to make sure the changes work as a component, prior to full system tests, is all. Their money/program and all of that, I just don't get it.

These are not, comparatively, enormous tanks.

U$er name checks out

I would think the actual forces involved would be pretty hard to simulate.... that's a significant amount g forces and a pretty unique situation.

You still have to build the whole stand etc. We'll see what happens, if they land this one successfully, or at least intact enough to examine, they'll have the formula down and not need to spend the money.

It's not a simple 'wind tunnel' test but pipeline/PE engineers regularly lab test complex valves/pumps, and I'd be interested to hear from any on this board/forum as to their thoughts on this.

nortex97 said:

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It's not a simple 'wind tunnel' test but pipeline/PE engineers regularly lab test complex valves/pumps, and I'd be interested to hear from any on this board/forum as to their thoughts on this.

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Pipelines aren't translating and rotating during normal conditions... They're are basically static as far as flow issues go. The issue is with simulating G forces, Not really easy to induce a sudden G force load through a decent sized object...

lead said:

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Wow. Can you animate?

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Another iteration on the rendering

It's official...

We are going to Mars from South Texas!

SpaceX just put us on the MAP....literally.


Official Plans: (TLDR Version: 2 Sub Orbital, 2 Orbital Launch Pads. 2 Landing Pads)
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/03/spacex-reveals-the-grand-extent-of-its-starport-plans-in-south-texas/?fbclid=IwAR3Vcl-T2sYuVrIUW05PPC62gJ9U_tgFD-Sd8HNCMTMVOzZlsGeqpnoGYWM

Story Link:https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/03/spacex-reveals-the-grand-extent-of-its-starport-plans-in-south-texas/?fbclid=IwAR3Vcl-T2sYuVrIUW05PPC62gJ9U_tgFD-Sd8HNCMTMVOzZlsGeqpnoGYWM

Intent to test fire today, launch tomorrow, for now.

Quote:

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Despite the seemingly successful 'cryo proof,' something prevented a subsequent static fire test planned on March 12th before any attempt could be made, delaying the next attempt until after the approaching weekend. An agreement between SpaceX, Cameron County, and the state of Texas currently prevents road closures (and thus rocket testing) on weekends falling between Labor Day and Memorial Day, rules meant to preserve some level of public access to Boca Chica Beach.

As a result, unless SpaceX is already ready to launch (it has waivers for three such weekend closures for launch attempts), the company has to wait until Monday even if a minor issue fixable in hours or a day or so scrubs Friday test plans. While inconvenient, it's worth noting that the existence of that public beach and the strong regulations that protect its public domain is likely one of the only reasons the general public can still get as close as they can to SpaceX's Boca Chica 'Starbase'.

For whatever reason, that road closure agreement does still mean that SpaceX will (in theory) be able to test and launch any day of the week from May 31st to September 6th, save for a few holidays, effectively boosting the number of opportunities by 40% for those 14 weeks. Until then, SpaceX is doing everything it can to take full advantage of the five days a week it is allowed to test Starship prototypes.

Road closure requests, a safety warning for residents, and a Temporary Flight Restriction (TFR) filed with the FAA all suggest that SpaceX's current plan is to attempt Starship SN11's first triple-Raptor static fire between 6am and 12pm CDT on Monday, March 15th. If that test goes almost perfectly, SpaceX wants to turn the rocket around for a 10 km (6.2 mi) launch attempt on Tuesday, March 16th the very next day. Given the past performance of high-altitude Starship prototypes, that target is decidedly ambitious and likely to incur delays, but it still reveals the true scope of SpaceX's goals even at this early stage of development.

If Starship SN11 does manage to launch within a few days of its first static fire attempt, SpaceX would still crush SN10's 33-day record by a factor of three. Stay tuned for updates on Monday's possible Starship static fire and rapid Tuesday turnaround attempt

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Side note/rant; below the link provided above, is an article about a new quiet 'semi' truck Tesla is testing out in Fremont. I just wish they'd build some 'quiet' leaf blowers and we could mandate their use in my HOA. /rant.

Not necessarily SpaceX, but it is Elon. I got a chuckle out of it.

what is the likelyhood of flying tuesday?

Read it should be too windy to fly Tuesday.

Dude has kinda earned the right to a little swagger lol.