SpaceX and other space news updates

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PJYoung
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Yeah they're not launching until next week at the earliest because of the engine swap.



Quote:

For another reference point, it was 8 days between engine static fire attempts for SN9 with a dual engine swap. So if we cut that in half we might see SF early next week and 2 to 3 days later a launch, so a week minimum is my best estimate.

lol that acceleration

Malachi Constant
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I really don't like the SLS, and my main gripe was that is was a total waste of tax-payer dollars. I read this blog last night (it's super long, but once I started I couldn't stop). Now I want more than anything for this thing to be cancelled. While it's extremely disappointing to think about how this $15B+ could have spent elsewhere, but now reading this blog, it's clear how the same mistakes that cost two shuttle crews their lives are being repeated on the SLS.

https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2021/02/24/sls-is-cancellation-too-good/

There are almost too many headshots to pick from on this, but here are my favorites:

Quote:

I am writing this blog because, in every possible way, the SLS program embodies the logical union of all of these organizational problems that have troubled NASA since its inception in 1958. This isn't bureaucratic inefficiency at the local DMV. This is a multi billion dollar multi decade national flagship project oriented towards launching living breathing humans into deep space, and it's being run in a way that maximizes the odds of very public failure.

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Today, we have a few dozen SSMEs left in warehouses, exquisite examples of 1970s-era tech, every bit as wonderful as a Faberge Egg. Fit for a museum, not a modern rocket. Are they reliable enough? No. But are they expendable? No. But are they at least affordable, because we already have them? Also no. The contractors involved are providing them for the SLS at a cost of $150m per engine.

Let's get this straight. We're going to take these priceless antique reusable rocket engines and fly them once and drop them in the Atlantic Ocean. And the engines alone will cost us about the same as 10 Falcon 9 flights.
Quote:

The entire damn lunar gateway only exists because SLS is too anaemic to launch the incredibly overweight Orion anywhere useful, so perhaps we should just drop the whole thing into the Atlantic ocean and be done with it.

And the biggest headshot:

Quote:

The SpaceX Starship is designed to deliver on order a million tonnes to orbit a year, for about $100/kg. That's 15,000 times the stuff for 1/500th the cost. I have no doubt that the Starship development program will have its surprises and setbacks but they've already flown to 12.5km roughly as high as the stack of $100 bills already spent on SLS would reach. Even if Starship comes in at 10x the design cost it will still be 50x cheaper than the competition. Would you spend $20k on a car, or $1m on the same car? It's hard to even make meaningful comparisons here.

I encourage you to read the whole thing.
NASAg03
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HD images from Perseverance are starting to come in. You can pan and zoom on NASA's website as well.

https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8873/nasas-perseverance-rover-gives-high-definition-panoramic-view-of-landing-site/



nortex97
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Entertaining, thanks for posting.

I do think his writing/take has a lot of merits, and again was funny, but I don't think it's totally historically fair either. One example;

Quote:

Reconfiguring existing Shuttle hardware appears great on paper but reality had other ideas. Take away the Shuttle orbiter and the proto-SLS, now called the Ares V as part of George W. Bush's Constellation Program, was still hobbled by a hydrogen booster stage, giant solid boosters, finicky SSME engines, and a loss of institutional expertise. Reusing Shuttle hardware should retain workforce and derisk development, but it's important to remember that despite flying more than 100 missions, practically none of the Shuttle hardware was reliable enough, at an architectural level, to meet any kind of certification standard.
Yes, it looks great on paper. The AresV was not hobbled by a hydrogen booster stage, it benefited from an engineered one proven to work already, with a supply chain in place. The SRB's have been quite reliable (but for the ignorant use on the Challenger). The SSME (RS25) has never been finicky, just expensive as it was designed to be re-used in an earlier era of engineering/non-CAD/CAM.

The shuttle hardware actually was quite reliable, for it's time. Imagine hopping on a 707 for instance on a flight today as a passenger. It's going to be relatively noisy, fuel inefficient, less capable of meeting modern dispatch/safety standards, and use some grossly outdated flight control systems (sometimes I pity USAF KC-135 guys). That's what the early-70's era Shuttle was. And that was the part that was most unreliable as it had the antiquated heat shield system/tiles. Not sure what certification standard he's referencing.

Ok, one more example;

Quote:

In 1986 there were still enough Apollo veterans floating around that, had anyone involved had the courage to declare Shuttle a total loss and permanently ground it, there is every chance that a rocket in the style of the Falcon 9 could have been human rated and operational by 1990, representing a genuine path to steady improvements in reusability and cost, and a commitment to fact-based reality as the program's guiding star.
So, sure, there were still Apollo vets around in 1986, but to ignore all context of shuttle development/history to say it should have been cancelled outright in 1986 is imho deliberately obtuse. What could have succeeded it? People just 3 years ago thought Musk was crazy for saying they'd re-use F9 boosters 10 times at least. NASA, nor anyone really, had gone through the metamorphosis of proposing going to private industry to develop space access then, and no one like Musk was offering/proposing to throw billions privately at it.

Using Northrop, McD, Thiokol, martin marietta, etc. (all of the other major contractors, I'm leaving some off) domestically would have led to...a similar cost point, and frankly not a lot more advanced technology. I am really, really dubious they'd have proposed/built a real reusable system.

Again, thank you for the post/link, but I don't think the history can be looked at in a vacuum as that guy does accurately. He does link other folks throughout though, like Rand Simberg, which I think offer a more nuanced/accurate real take (such as noting the baseline/reference cost on the Apollo launches were a few billion in today's dollars) on the SLS' sordid history. His piece is definitely worth considering/reading for those interested with a couple of hours to kill. Excerpt that is on point about SLS, in it's totality;

Maximus_Meridius
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So...take this for what it's worth, but the LabPadre guys are saying they're going for a static fire today. Mary said she got an alert for today, so who knows...
Decay
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LET'S GO TO SPACE
PJYoung
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Maximus_Meridius said:

So...take this for what it's worth, but the LabPadre guys are saying they're going for a static fire today. Mary said she got an alert for today, so who knows...

Ha it does look like they might be trying to static fire today. That would be quite a fast turnaround. SpaceX continues to amaze.
nortex97
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I haven't seen anything posted on this Terran R plan from Relativity;

Quote:

Terran R represents an expansion of Relativity's offerings in the launch marketplace.
Terran 1 is priced at $12 million per launch and is designed to carry 1,250 kilograms to low Earth orbit.
That puts Terran 1 in the middle of the U.S. launch market, in between Rocket Lab's Electron and SpaceX's Falcon 9 in both price and capability.

Ellis said Terran R will be capable of lifting nearly 20 times as much payload as Terran 1, with Relativity targeting a rocket capable of launching more than 20,000 kilograms to low Earth orbit. That would be near the 22,800 kilograms that SpaceX says its Falcon 9 rockets can launch.

While Ellis declined to disclose what price per launch Relativity expects for Terran R, he said that Relativity plans to be competitive with other offerings. SpaceX advertises Falcon 9 rocket launches with a $62 million price tag, with Musk's company saying each rocket costs about $28 million to launch.

"We really were asked by the market to create Terran R and we're currently talking with customers," Ellis said.

Relativity has a pipeline worth several billion dollars of contracts "in active dialogue" for both its Terran 1 and Terran R rockets, Ellis said, with customer interest split evenly between the two vehicles. He noted that the Terran 1 contracts that Relativity has announced to date have binding launch service agreements, so customers are paying on deposits for the rockets.

"There are tons of customers, all getting funding and developing big plans, and that's really driving the need for more launch capacity globally," Ellis said.

Not only does Relativity's CEO expect to be competitive in the marketplace, but he also believes there will be more spacecraft trying to launch than there are rides to orbit.

"There's actually going to be a launch shortage, if you look at how many people are trying to launch payloads to space," Ellis said. "Almost every model we've looked at, there need to be more launch vehicles to deploy even a fraction of the plans that people are talking about."

Ellis also touted Terran R's reusability as further enhancing Relativity's competitiveness.

"I just don't see a future where a fully reusable rocket doesn't exist and doesn't need to exist," Ellis said.

He highlighted SpaceX's work on reusability as informing Relativity's approach to Terran R, which he expects will be "fully reusable." SpaceX's Falcon 9 rockets are partially reusable, in that the company lands the first stage (also known as the booster) and often recovers the rocket's nosecone. But SpaceX does not recover Falcon 9s second stages a feat Relativity aims to pull off by 3D printing designs which "wouldn't be possible with traditional manufacturing," Ellis said.

...

Relativity's focus on 3D printing means the company doesn't have to change or add new equipment to its production line.

"The printers, straight up with software changes, will build Terran R," Ellis said.

"It's a completely different technology stack for aerospace," Ellis added. "Every aerospace factory you walk into today is still building products with giant fixed tooling and a very complex supply chain and it takes many years to develop a new product. If you want to do slight tweaks and changes, you've got to rip out all of that and go all over again."

Relativity has been building Terran 1 with the expectation that Terran R was coming.

Ellis noted that Terran 1 is fueled by liquid oxygen and liquid methane propellants are the focal point of next-generation reusable rockets. Even the company's testing facilities at NASA's Stennis Space Center in Mississippi "are already sized" to test the larger engines needed for Terran R, he said.
More methelox reusable rockets, made in the US, and I love that they're using additive mfg/printers to do it.
IronRed13
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Friend just landed a job there. Hadnt heard of them until last week, but excited to see what 3D printed rockets can do!
PJYoung
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Wow, really good static fire a couple of minutes ago. Sounded way better than the last one.

Maximus_Meridius
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Beat me by a few seconds. Looked and sounded good. It's amazing that they changed that engine in less than 48 hours.
PJYoung
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Maximus_Meridius said:

Beat me by a few seconds. Looked and sounded good. It's amazing that they changed that engine in less than 48 hours.
The timeline on everything SpaceX just keeps getting quicker. Exciting stuff.
Decay
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My biggest question about starship is those re-entry tiles? For something that's supposed to be rapidly reusable I don't understand how, even if they're all made exactly the same, how you replace those quickly and easily without a full inspection?

that's basically my only question about the concept everything else, at this point, looks to be solvable with current technology and processes ... Obviously they're going to refine everything but it's all right there in front of us.
Ag_of_08
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Didn't even pay attention to the green run getting canceled for sls.....

I really don't know how they're going tonjustify that vehicle much longer. I know early on there was discussion about dragon being lunar capable.... was the heat shield kept in that condition?
Ag_of_08
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The plan is supposed to be ease of replacement. If they're all the same size, they can be replaced quickly and easily with a cursory inspection
Maximus_Meridius
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Ag_of_08 said:

Didn't even pay attention to the green run getting canceled for sls.....

I really don't know how they're going tonjustify that vehicle much longer. I know early on there was discussion about dragon being lunar capable.... was the heat shield kept in that condition?


It's Congress. Where there's a will to screw the American public to line a few pockets, there's a way.

I don't see how you're going to land Dragon on the moon. I think Elon is thinking Dragon will be limited to LEO only.
Ag_of_08
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I never said land dragon. We have lander designs in the works, we need a lighter weight and better capsule option.
nortex97
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Ag_of_08 said:

I never said land dragon. We have lander designs in the works, we need a lighter weight and better capsule option.
A lighter and better capsule for what? SpaceX built a version of their elevator for starship and are bidding that for the lunar next phase. What would you want them to develop a lighter/smaller dragon capsule for?

A manned dream chaser makes sense to me if further development/options are needed for earth orbit from existing rockets (as it was originally designed).
Decay
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Starship's plan for lunar and martian landings is the whole rocket.
Maximus_Meridius
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Ag_of_08 said:

I never said land dragon. We have lander designs in the works, we need a lighter weight and better capsule option.
So...something more akin to Apollo? I'm sorry, I'm just confused as to why Dragon not having a heat shield to be lighter makes it viable for the moon. Unless you're thinking of just using a Dragon to go between ISS and Lunar Gateway, which I guess you could, but someone would have to come up with a "Service Module" because I'm pretty sure the Dracos lack the ability to perform the TLI.
Ag_of_08
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Starship is several years out, lunar or otherwise. Dragon was originally designed with lunar missions in mind.....why not replace an outdated Orion capsule, that's far to heavy, and slaved to the SLS, and punt the who SLS Orion stack. Use the same EOR/LOR/LOR concept being pitched now, but do it with a lighter, easier to launch system. With EOR, you don't even need to man rate falcon heavy....launch the dragon to rendezvous with the transfer and capture stage on F9.

The only real development needed for an EOR mission is the mating structure between the transfer stage( honestly I'm not sure the centaur is not the better option) and whatever capsule we use.

Starship is the future, but it's a long way out. There are options that, with proper funding and a refusal to use cost+ contracts, could get us on the moon by 2024 with the abandonment of SLS.... without having to man rate a new rocket.
Ag_of_08
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That's exactly what I'm proposing.....what part of Von Brauns team proposed for Apollo as well. A dragon, which can be launched on a falcon 9, rendezvousing with a transfer stage( centaur most likely) in LEO, then making tli/capture.... not between stations, but as the primary return vehicle. The dragon HAD, I don't know if it still does, the capability of lunar return as far as a heat shield goes. If it still does, the problem is much easier.

Think Apollo, but they never solved the f1 combustion instability issues, and went with the backup Saturn 1b three launch plan.
nortex97
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Sure, that could be done, and I realize the Centaur upper stage has a lot of power, but I do wonder what could be done if a vacuum raptor upper stage on FH could also work as the engine is now much more mature than when it was studied/discussed initially (this would change a lot of calculations, plus depend on throttling ability etc., and I just dunno), even with Orion bolted to the top (which Bridenstine has discussed with congress).

Yeah, it's a wider faring but I read (and we discussed a few pages back) that it could be modified/work was preliminarily done to make that happen. A Crew Dragon is just a lot less cargo/space for the crew, yet of course it could also be so adopted. Against my better judgment I think this June 2020 WaPo editorial was on point and supportive of your analysis; Zubrin and Hickam know their stuff, imho.

Quote:

NASA's response to Pence's challenge was to proceed with what it already had in the pipeline: the Orion crewed spacecraft and the massive shuttle-derived Space Launch System (SLS) heavy-lift expendable booster rocket. SLS has been in slow-walk development since 2006, with more than $18 billion spent, but it is still years away from launch. Considering this track record, we unhappily doubt the SLS/Orion combination will meet the vice president's challenge.

But now we have an alternative. The contract that resulted in the Dragon crewed spacecraft was issued by NASA in 2014. Six years and $3 billion later, it has flown astronauts into orbit. What SpaceX did was show that a well-led entrepreneurial team can achieve results that were previously thought to require the efforts of superpowers, and in a small fraction of the time and cost, and even as demonstrated by its reusable Falcon launch vehicles do things deemed impossible altogether. This is a revolution.

We recognize the hard work that NASA and its contractors have put forth on Orion/SLS, but they have simply been left behind by more nimble commercial companies. Dragon is not just cheaper than Orion; it is much better, because it is much lighter. The Dragon has a mass of 9.5 tons, compared to Orion's 26.5 tons. Orion could have been designed lighter, but NASA has received so many conflicting directives from successive administrations Orion was once required to fly to the asteroid belt! it ended up with an elephant, not the racehorse it needed.

Moreover, SLS cannot deliver Orion to low lunar orbit like Apollo with enough propellant to fly it home. To fix this, NASA wants to build a new space station in high lunar orbit, which it calls the Gateway, to provide Orion with a destination that it can reach. But to travel down to the moon and back up to the high Gateway orbit requires a lander with double the propellant needed from low orbit. This Rube Goldbergian plan will cost billions and add years to the schedule of what has become known as the Artemis program.
PJYoung
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Ag_of_08
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My premise right now is to develop as little new as possible, and divorce ourselves cleanly from the SLS/Orion program. I agree the raptor might be a better long term option. I'm just coming from a minimum cost perspective.

I disagree with the in flight refueling proposals involving centaur right now.... hydrolox refueling on orbit is a radically new process, and means long term development. Let spacex figure out how to do it with starship, we have a chance to do this in the next 4 years or so with mostly existing hardware.

Doesn't the crew dragon actually have more internal volume than Orion?

Starship is the future, but lunar starship is not made for reentry, and there still needs to be a lunar transfer vehicle if we're going to launch gateway at all.
double aught
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All this talk makes me appreciate more how badass Apollo was.
Ag_of_08
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Just the fact that the solved the issues with the massive f1's is impressive. The j-2 was an amazing engine as well..... I'm still not sure we made the right decision to abandon the j-2x program, or the F1-b
nortex97
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Fair enough, I suppose. With the cargo module it has a ton of volume.

Anyway, good update on BC Starship plans. Interesting they are really going all in trying to position Boca Chica for lunar support/missions, but makes sense to the extent this can be done quickly (decision likely in next few weeks, also maybe adding some pressure to land SN10). 8 missions a year there, big landing pad expansion.





https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20464982-faa-spacex-boca-draft-ea-ch-1-and-2

IF, and that's a big if, SpaceX gets a share to advance with lunar starship, I don't think it is such a long term project, to say 'several years away' from orbital missions. This means SuperHeavy will have to happen in the next couple of years certainly, and Musk said in September he is shooting for an orbital launch with a starship this year (meaning 2021.)

I think this is realistic, if in fact the Raptor design/production is maturing (note in video as well how many of the components are changing, though the explanations for how/why have not been publicly given). SH and Starship basically are simplistic stainless steel rockets with these fantastically advanced/difficult to understand how mature raptor engines.

Engine swap to a (different color bell nozzle?) new Raptor took 24 hours, vs. 3 weeks to change a valve on one RS-25 for SLS made me laugh.
Decay
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Is SN10 supposed to try soon?
PJYoung
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Decay said:

Is SN10 supposed to try soon?
The thinking right now is Monday.
double aught
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PJYoung said:


Place used rockets here.
PJYoung
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double aught said:

PJYoung said:


Place used rockets here.
scottimus
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PJYoung said:

Decay said:

Is SN10 supposed to try soon?
The thinking right now is Monday.
I believe the road closure notice is set for Tuesday...the TFRs will confirm it.
Suppose I was an idiot. Suppose I was a member of congress. But, I repeat myself.
Maximus_Meridius
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scottimus said:

PJYoung said:

Decay said:

Is SN10 supposed to try soon?
The thinking right now is Monday.
I believe the road closure notice is set for Tuesday...the TFRs will confirm it.
Lab Padre is reporting that there are TFRs for Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. I bet we at least get an attempt on Monday.
scottimus
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Maximus_Meridius said:

scottimus said:

PJYoung said:

Decay said:

Is SN10 supposed to try soon?
The thinking right now is Monday.
I believe the road closure notice is set for Tuesday...the TFRs will confirm it.
Lab Padre is reporting that there are TFRs for Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. I bet we at least get an attempt on Monday.



FTS (Flight Termination System) has been installed.

Looks like you are right for Monday!
Suppose I was an idiot. Suppose I was a member of congress. But, I repeat myself.
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