Considering how popular mass transit is in our major cities, this sounds like a winner!

one MEEN Ag said:

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This is all going to come down to a texas supreme court ruling. Does a privately owned rail line that has one stop satisfy the requirements for getting eminent domain status? A rail line has to serve the areas it gets ED from, does one stop convey that?

Hopefully the state supreme court will rule that one stop across 300 miles does not count as serving.

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That is the issue. Railroads have eminent domain power due to being common carriers who serve the areas that their lines cross (railroads are obligated to take freight from customers along the line so long as those customers are willing to pay the published rate--which means that a railroad for a single user, not open to the public, doesn't have eminent domain authority). The whole Shiro stop is simply a sham intended to buttress their argument for eminent domain authority.

twk said:

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halfastros81 said:

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I suppose someone that lives in the Houston area and commutes to Dallas weekly or vice versa could leave a car parked near the train station on each end. Doesn't seem like it would make economic sense tho. Uber or Lyft another option.

Isn't this all privately funded? If so the investors are taking the business risk but no public $ should be used. That's been the issue in the past with these type of project I suspect. They fail before they are even in service and then public $ finish them.

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The private funding claim has been a lie from the beginning--they were always planning to take advantage of federally backed loans (which, I suspect, is what this federal "approval" is actually about) because the money isn't there to back this thing as a purely private venture. Now, they are going beyond that and looking for federal subsidies claiming Covid losses.

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You got a source here? Not disagreeing just trying to educate myself as I want it to get done if using private dollars.

Quote:

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As for federal loans, the project will explore all forms of capital available to private companies to finance debt for the project, including federal loan programs like RRIF and TIFIA. These programs are specifically designed to promote private investment to improve and innovate US infrastructure.

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link

Quote:

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The RRIF program was established by the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA-21) and amended by the Safe Accountable, Flexible and Efficient Transportation Equity Act: a Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU). Under this program the FRA Administrator is authorized to provide direct loans and loan guarantees up to $35.0 billion to finance development of railroad infrastructure. Not less than $7.0 billion is reserved for projects benefiting freight railroads other than Class I carriers.
The funding may be used to:

• Acquire, improve, or rehabilitate intermodal or rail equipment or facilities, including track, components of track, bridges, yards, buildings and shops;
• Refinance outstanding debt incurred for the purposes listed above; and
• Develop or establish new intermodal or railroad facilities

Direct loans can fund up to 100% of a railroad project with repayment periods of up to 35 years and interest rates equal to the cost of borrowing to the government.

Eligible borrowers include railroads, state and local governments, government-sponsored authorities and corporations, joint ventures that include at least one railroad, and limited option freight shippers who intend to construct a new rail connection.

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link

Quote:

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Background on TIFIA

• Strategic goal - to leverage limited Federal resources and stimulate capital market investment in transportation infrastructure by providing credit assistance in the form of direct loans, loan guarantees, and standby lines of credit (rather than grants) to projects of national or regional significance.
• Key objectives
  
  • Facilitate projects with significant public benefits
  • Encourage new revenue streams and private participation
  • Fill capital market gaps for secondary/subordinate capital
  • Be a flexible, "patient" investor willing to take on investor concerns about investment horizon, liquidity, predictability and risk
  • Limit Federal exposure by relying on market discipline
• Major requirements
  
  • Minimum Anticipated Project Costs
    
    • $10 million for Transit-Oriented Development, Local, and Rural Projects
    • $15 million for Intelligent Transportation System Projects
    • $50 million for all other eligible Surface Transportation Projects
  • TIFIA Credit Assistance Limit Credit assistance limited to 33 percent of reasonably anticipated eligible project costs (unless the sponsor provides a compelling justification for up to 49 percent)
  • Investment Grade Rating Senior debt and TIFIA loan must receive investment grade ratings from at least two nationally recognized credit rating agencies (only one rating required if less than $75 million)
  • Dedicated Repayment Source The project must have a dedicated revenue source pledged to secure both the TIFIA and senior debt financing
  • Applicable Federal Requirements Including, but not limited to: Civil Rights, NEPA, Uniform Relocation, Buy America, Titles 23 and 49
• Rolling application process - Applicants must submit detailed letters of interest when a project is able to provide sufficient information to satisfy statutory eligibility requirements, such as creditworthiness and readiness to proceed; after invitation from the TIFIA Joint Program Office, a formal application is required

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link

What they do is they get federally-guaranteed loans, or direct loans, sign contracts with companies owned by the folks who are organizing the railroad (or better yet, have false fronts own the railroad so that there is no connection), make their profit on the construction and/or real estate speculation around the stations, then default on the loans after the line is built. At that point, the government would be looking to recoup its losses on the loans and you'd probably see the government take over operation of the railroad that the completed rail line (likely the only asset pledged as collateral) doesn't go to "waste."

JUST DO IT FOR OUR PRECIOUS WORLD. IT WILL SAVE THE WHALES DAMMIT!

So it is privately funded but with government loans that are essentially designed to be defaulted on and then the government takes over the project. Sounds like a scam to me.

twk said:

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link

What they do is they get federally-guaranteed loans, or direct loans, sign contracts with companies owned by the folks who are organizing the railroad (or better yet, have false fronts own the railroad so that there is no connection), make their profit on the construction and/or real estate speculation around the stations, then default on the loans after the line is built. At that point, the government would be looking to recoup its losses on the loans and you'd probably see the government take over operation of the railroad that the completed rail line (likely the only asset pledged as collateral) doesn't go to "waste."

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Thanks for the background info. The real estate speculation part seems pretty simple, and slightly less nefarious than purposely building a government-sponsored project that is doomed to fail (especially one requiring eminent domain). So you believe that there are other related parties (whether through direct legal ownership or other more obscured relationships) that will be used to construct the project? I didn't see anything obvious on their website about who would actually be constructing it. Do you have any evidence that this is the plan or examples of this happening in the past?

It seems like the government should be doing sufficient due diligence to prevent a situation where they are providing loans or guarantees to companies that are not viable, but I suppose that's nothing a few grease payments can't fix.

Jesus Christ, I had thought this thing was killed. We will be bailing this POS out in no time.

You have the entire airline industry on the ropes and we are going to add a f'ing HSR that is completely unnecessary and will also destroy the landscape between Dallas and Houston?

YouBet said:

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Jesus Christ, I had thought this thing was killed. We will be bailing this POS out in no time.

You have the entire airline industry on the ropes and we are going to add a f'ing HSR that is completely unnecessary and will also destroy the landscape between Dallas and Houston?

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And will be obsolete the moment self driving cars become a reality.

Which means, long before completion of HSR.

CanyonAg77 said:

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YouBet said:

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Jesus Christ, I had thought this thing was killed. We will be bailing this POS out in no time.

You have the entire airline industry on the ropes and we are going to add a f'ing HSR that is completely unnecessary and will also destroy the landscape between Dallas and Houston?

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And will be obsolete the moment self driving cars become a reality.

Which means, long before completion of HSR.

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Yep, there is a high likelihood you are looking at the next Las Colinas monorail tracks to nowhere and/or your next Waxahachie super collider.

Someone did the math and for $20B you could build a new terminal in Houston and Dallas, buy several new planes, and have everyone fly for free for like 15 years. This is the dumbest project ever.

Ocean Of Funk said:

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I know someone on Texags works on this project and has totally slurped up the koolaid. He/She can't believe people don't want this boondoggle choo-choo.

This is bad for texas.

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Probably not anymore.

https://abc13.com/texas-bullet-train-layoffs-from-dallas-to-houston-high-speed/6059224/

OnlyForNow said:

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It's going to have 12-15 foot high fences along the ENTIRE thing.

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I think it's a bad investment, but y'all realize they have these high speed trains in countries with cows and deer, right? That's not exactly a big problem. It's the same as when people scoff that these trains won't have TSA. Neither does the high speed train running between DC, NYC, and Boston today.

Anyway, I just want to know how people will breath with the train moving so fast. Won't everyone's faces just be all scrunched up from the G-forces?

Eventually it will just be an intermodal hub for FedEx or UPS

The average new car in the US currently costs about $37,900

For that $1B a year in interest on the proposed $20B HSR, you could buy 36 new cars a day in Dallas plus 36 new cars a day in Houston, let people drive them off and you never see them again.

Don't really care, but I have always thought a high speed train between San Antonio and Austin would be a great idea. there are a lot of commuters who live in San Antonio and commute to Austin and vice versa. Doesn't even have to be high speed, but anything to get people off of IH-35 is good by me. Eventually I would like to see every major Texas City connected by rail system.

Drillbit4 said:

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Someone did the math and for $20B you could build a new terminal in Houston and Dallas, buy several new planes, and have everyone fly for free for like 15 years. This is the dumbest project ever.

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I assume you haven't paid attention to the California rail boondoggle.

Kill Switch said:

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Don't really care, but I have always thought a high speed train between San Antonio and Austin would be a great idea. there are a lot of commuters who live in San Antonio and commute to Austin and vice versa. Doesn't even have to be high speed, but anything to get people off of IH-35 is good by me. Eventually I would like to see every major Texas City connected by rail system.

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Commuters aren't going to take a high-speed train, certainly not on a daily basis. HSR ticket prices are going to be similar to airline prices. Maybe if you had a commuter train between SA and Austin it would reduce some vehicle traffic, but an HSR will mostly displace seats in the sky and not cars on the ground.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Drillbit4 said:

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Someone did the math and for $20B you could build a new terminal in Houston and Dallas, buy several new planes, and have everyone fly for free for like 15 years. This is the dumbest project ever.

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Round trip fares are anywhere from $90 to $500 between Dallas and Houston. Let's make it $200 for simplicity.

Stick that $20B in an investment somewhere, where it makes a lousy 5% return.

That gives you $1,000,000,000 a year to spend on airline tickets.

Or, five million tickets a year, around 13,700 tickets a day.

It appears to me that Southwest flies 8 flights a day to Houston from Dallas, 9 going the other way. So 8.5 round trips a day.

Their biggest 737s hold 175 passengers. 8.5 round trips a day, they currently move 1,488 people.

Bottom line: 5% interest on the $20B for high speed rail could buy 9x as many SW round trips a day, as SW currently flies.

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Had another thought...for $20,000,000,000, you could buy every Southwest round trip ticket between Dallas and Houston

For the next 184 years.

Don't bring Southwest into this. HSR is better because it
-is more flexible in real-time operations
-is more flexible for future expansion or contraction
-has infinite capacity
-doesn't require vast destruction of private property
-is faster
-will make a profit/pay for itself
-sounds cool if you're a kid in the 1880s

Kill Switch said:

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Don't really care, but I have always thought a high speed train between San Antonio and Austin would be a great idea. there are a lot of commuters who live in San Antonio and commute to Austin and vice versa. Doesn't even have to be high speed, but anything to get people off of IH-35 is good by me. Eventually I would like to see every major Texas City connected by rail system.

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Why? Once you have self-driving cars an automated highway traffic system comes as part of that.

Inter-city trains in the US are already obsolete in vast geographic areas like Texas.

12thAngryMan said:

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twk said:

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link

What they do is they get federally-guaranteed loans, or direct loans, sign contracts with companies owned by the folks who are organizing the railroad (or better yet, have false fronts own the railroad so that there is no connection), make their profit on the construction and/or real estate speculation around the stations, then default on the loans after the line is built. At that point, the government would be looking to recoup its losses on the loans and you'd probably see the government take over operation of the railroad that the completed rail line (likely the only asset pledged as collateral) doesn't go to "waste."

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Thanks for the background info. The real estate speculation part seems pretty simple, and slightly less nefarious than purposely building a government-sponsored project that is doomed to fail (especially one requiring eminent domain). So you believe that there are other related parties (whether through direct legal ownership or other more obscured relationships) that will be used to construct the project? I didn't see anything obvious on their website about who would actually be constructing it. Do you have any evidence that this is the plan or examples of this happening in the past?

It seems like the government should be doing sufficient due diligence to prevent a situation where they are providing loans or guarantees to companies that are not viable, but I suppose that's nothing a few grease payments can't fix.

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The concept is as old as railroads. Google Credit Mobilier. Only now, instead of land grants, the government involvement is through guaranteed loans. What they count on is the government taking over operations if the railroad line goes bankrupt, after they've pocketed the construction profits, and developed the real estate around the termini.

lawless89 said:

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I commute between both all the time and would never be interested in taking this. I'd rather commute by myself in my truck and have a vehicle when I'm in both cities. I just don't see a lot of people actually using this.

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What if you could park your car on the train like a ferry? That would be cool

SpreadsheetAg said:

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lawless89 said:

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I commute between both all the time and would never be interested in taking this. I'd rather commute by myself in my truck and have a vehicle when I'm in both cities. I just don't see a lot of people actually using this.

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What if you could park your car on the train like a ferry? That would be cool

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I don't know. To me that's just putting lipstick on a turd. Loading and unloading the train will take even longer. Would you sit in your car during the trip? Am i going to burn my own gas for AC? Are there going to be passenger areas on the train? Everybody all together or private coaches? That's going to be one crazy boondoggle.

Just give me flying cars finally!!!!!

Memaw is in the ICU! We gotta get to Dallas quick!

What car should we take?

No time for cars in times like these. Theres only one solution.

To the bullet train station!

If it stopped when going over Kyle Field and I could slide down to my box, I'd be in.

Probably a massive voter fraud scheme... vote in Dallas - train to Houston - vote in Houston.

Any argument FOR "high speed" rail falls when compared to MEGA busses. The ONLY area rail wins is that it isn't impacted by traffic jams, but you could build an elevated roadway dedicated to MEGA (and in the future, all automated vehicles) for less so that argument still fails.

ATMTWS said:

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I'm sure they did studies on the demand for something like this, but I just dont believe that people will ride this as much as those studies show. Look at Amtrak. Its not an apples to apples comparison, but people prefer to drive. I would assume this is even more true in the new China Virus World we are living in.

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Especially in this century. The risk of sabotage by reprobates both domestic and foreign would be an ongoing concern. The virus risk and quarantine on a train just puts it over the cliff.

Stupid...distance is too great for this to even make sense. People don't understand how big the U.S. is. Maybe a high speed rail between S.A. and Austin for weekend commuters, but I can't see anyone using this to traverse the entire state. A round trip flight from Houston to DFW will probably only be 20-30$ more, and will be quicker.

The ability to take a POV with you at a reasonable cost would be an absolute necessity for rail service within Texas to be viable. Being able to drive your own car at your destination is a virtual necessity in most Texas cities for anything beyond a brief stay, and even then driving is more practical unless you're going on someone else's dime. As it is, most airline passengers flying between "triangle" cities are connecting to or from some other destination.

This is a land grab. Pure and simple.

Relatives have land on path. This is a no go. Lawsuits will be plenty. They have yet to get access to anyone's land to do a survey.

The proposed route goes right through the sanctuary of my family's ancestral church and cemetery in Madison County. 5 generations of my family will need to have their graves relocated and my wife and I will have to find another place to wait for the resurrection at the return of Christ (unless we are blessed to still be alive when He returns!).