Solid Argument for why statues must remain

9,212 Views | 139 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by CanyonAg77
Clob94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/507858-gop-senate-candidate-calls-confederate-monuments-symbols-of-hope?amp

Succinctly put. Statues remind us of mistakes. Mistakes must be acknowledged. Mistakes must be remembered so they're never made again.


That's what this is about---- perception. One side thinks these statues are meant to glorify. The other side thinks these statues are meant as reminders to an unjust era.
TAMUallen
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Or simply, history!
Funky Winkerbean
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Mond shouldn't be judged by one game in his career, and neither should Sully.
SRCag18
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

The other side thinks these statues are meant as reminders to an unjust era.
Because they were.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/07/toppling-statues-is-first-step-toward-ending-confederate-myths/

From the NatGeo article:
Quote:

Most of the statues were erected between 1890 and 1930 during the rise of Jim Crow laws intended to enforce racial segregation.
Quote:

The statues along Richmond's Monument Avenue, like others across America, were erected decades after the Civil War. At that point in history, says Julian Hayter, a professor of leadership studies at the University of Richmond, "White Southerners had come to terms with slavery being over. What they hadn't come to terms with was their loss of status."
Quote:

In their disfigurement, the statues had become like the Venus de Milo, telling a story much longer and richer in truth than the one intended by its creator.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/confederate-statues/

From the fivethirtyeight article:

Quote:

An overwhelming majority of Confederate memorials weren't erected in the years directly following the Civil War. Instead, most were put up decades later. Nor were they built just to commemorate fallen generals and soldiers; they were installed as symbols of white supremacy during periods of U.S. history when Black Americans' civil rights were aggressively under attack. In total, at least 830 such monuments were constructed across the U.S, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center
Quote:

The biggest spike in Confederate memorials came during the early 1900s, soon after Southern states enacted a number of sweeping laws to disenfranchise Black Americans and segregate society. During this period, more than 400 monuments were built as part of an organized strategy to reshape Civil War history. And this effort was largely spearheaded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who sponsored hundreds of statues, predominantly in the South in the early 20th century and as recently as 2011.
Quote:

Black Americans have long understood the symbolism of those monuments. "I know what this statue means," said Brooks. "It's a reminder to stay in my place."

Not just statues were erected during this period, either. Following the landmark Brown versus Board of Education decision in 1954, which said maintaining racially segregated schools was unconstitutional, there was an uptick in the number of colleges and schools named after Confederate soldiers and generals: From 1954 to 1970, at least 45 were named after Confederates.

I used to be against their removal. I bought into the argument about "rewriting history" with the removal of statues. I don't buy it anymore. We have history books, and the Civil War will always be taught. We know the Confederacy was five years of treasonous Americans fighting for a cause that hasn't been legal now for nearly 150 years. Removing statues is a necessary action that must continue until every Confederate "hero" is no longer memorialized.
NCNJ1217
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

I used to be against their removal.


Come on man, everyone can see your posting history that you're an extreme leftist and that this isn't the case.
bmks270
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Founding Texas A&M wasn't a mistake.
SRCag18
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I changed my opinion in light of new evidence presented to me. A very healthy thing for a mind to do, and it's the same reason I'm not a Republican anymore.
doubledog
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I am not against the removal of statues that were erected by "lost cause" proponents.

In most cases the victors write the history books, this was not the case in our civil war.

Lee was not a saint and Grant was not a drunken butcher, they were both men with flaws.

NCNJ1217
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
And let me get my stance on statue removal out there. It's been rattling around in my head for a while, so might as well share with the good people of Texags.

In general, I think people worrying about statues and what they represent is stupid. However, if people feel like a statue must come down, vandalism and violence is not the way to go about it. The correct way to accomplish those goals is through peaceful leadership change. If the mayor of a town, or Governor, or whoever doesn't align with your views, vote them out of office. Peacefully. And then I, if I think your statue removing ways aren't compatible with me and the election didn't turn out the way I want, am free to move away.

This works the same for Sully and A&M. Except it's more personal and I'm going to actively work to keep him where he belongs, as a representation of the person who saved A&M and made it possible for me to attend. But if he's removed, I and many others reserve the right to "move", that is quit supporting financially and otherwise.
DallasAg 94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GMaster0
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I don't agree with the logic in that guy's, nor is that an effective campaign strategy for running in NH. Confederate statutes symbols of hope and reminders of mistakes of the past?

Please call them what they were meant to be, relics attesting to the subjugation of black causes and a millstone to true reconciliation of wrongness.

There is hope with their removal and a righting of past wrong, it's up to everyone now to be better and find pathways forward. Race and racial discrimination are tough topics to talk about and we all struggle to define or understand the issue.

But I know we can do it and these small actions are those first steps in acknowledging some of that hurt.
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Funny World War 2 statues didn't go up after that war either. They tend to go up as the generation that fought the war start dying off. No Iraq wars statues yet but there will be. Besides the south was so poor right after the war they couldn't afford them. Take your Jim Crow theory away and go read contemporary newspaper accounts of what was said when the statues were erected.
DallasAg 94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
DallasAg 94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
$3 Sack of Groceries
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BQ78 said:

Funny World War 2 statues didn't go up after that war either. They tend to go up as the generation that fought the war start dying off. No Iraq wars statues yet but there will be. Besides the south was so poor right after the war they couldn't afford them. Take your Jim Crow theory away and go read contemporary newspaper accounts of what was said when the statues were erected.


Exactly the point I was going to make. You wanna talk about rewriting history? Those articles posted are comical. Of course when your references include (in the case of the 538 piece) are Vox and YouTube, I guess you get what you pay for.
PabloSerna
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Reminds YOU of mistakes...

Reminds US of other things. Time and place is how I view these things. We don't need to erase history to learn from it - but we don't need to stick a CSA monument at the entrance of every County Courthouse either. IMO

-flame on!
GreasenUSA
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

I used to be against their removal.
Right, being offended is something learned. It's a social construct that goes against your natural tendency. It's a shame we have to cater to the dog and pony show of the weak minded.
ATM9000
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Clob94 said:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/507858-gop-senate-candidate-calls-confederate-monuments-symbols-of-hope?amp

Succinctly put. Statues remind us of mistakes. Mistakes must be acknowledged. Mistakes must be remembered so they're never made again.


That's what this is about---- perception. One side thinks these statues are meant to glorify. The other side thinks these statues are meant as reminders to an unjust era.


Well then let's leave breadcrumbs for people to learn from our mistakes today then. If statues aren't about idolization of people and really mistake reminders then let's go ahead and erect some antifa statues in the CHAZ/CHOP in a few years. I mean... you'd be in favor of that so people in the area know that it was a massive mistake right?
wargograw
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BQ78 said:

Funny World War 2 statues didn't go up after that war either. They tend to go up as the generation that fought the war start dying off. No Iraq wars statues yet but there will be. Besides the south was so poor right after the war they couldn't afford them. Take your Jim Crow theory away and go read contemporary newspaper accounts of what was said when the statues were erected.
Yep. The whole "they didn't go up right after the war" thing is moronic. Johnny Manziel will probably have a statue at A&M someday. Why isn't it up now? Really stupid point.

Statues went up in the early 20th century because confederate veterans started to die in droves and their families wanted a way to remember them. They started building more in the 1960s because that was the 100th anniversary of their sacrifice.


Keep the statues or you lose everything, This is the line in the sand.
wargograw
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Look up John F. Harris. He was a BLACK representative in the Mississippi state legislature in 1890. The legislature commissioned $10,000 for a confederate soldiers monument. Not only did Harris vote for it, so did the ALL five of the other black members of the legislature. (Btw, don't tell the liberals that the Mississippi legislature had 6 black members in 1890; that would ruin the narrative.)

Anyway, this is the speech Harris gave in favor:

Quote:

When the news came that the South had been invaded, those men went forth to fight for what they believed, and they made no requests for monuments . . . But they died, and their virtues should be remembered.

Sir, I went with them. I too wore the gray, the same color my master wore. We stayed four long years, and if that war had gone on till now I would have been there yet . . . I want to honor those brave men who died for their convictions.
Polska
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
WeasleyIsOurKing said:

I changed my opinion in light of new evidence presented to me. A very healthy thing for a mind to do, and it's the same reason I'm not a Republican anymore.


What's 'the reason' that changed your mind on the statue and switch of political parties?
wargograw
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Can anyone explain to me why the Philadelphia Mint produced the Stone Mountain silver dollar in 1925 to commemorate "the valor of the southern soldier"?

Just a bunch of racists in Congress and in Philadelphia or what?
Smokedraw01
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BQ78 said:

Funny World War 2 statues didn't go up after that war either. They tend to go up as the generation that fought the war start dying off. No Iraq wars statues yet but there will be. Besides the south was so poor right after the war they couldn't afford them. Take your Jim Crow theory away and go read contemporary newspaper accounts of what was said when the statues were erected.


Either way, there is no need for Confederate leaders to be venerated at Confederate leaders.
Smokedraw01
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wargograw said:

Can anyone explain to me why the Philadelphia Mint produced the Stone Mountain silver dollar in 1925 to commemorate "the valor of the southern soldier"?

Just a bunch of racists in Congress and in Philadelphia or what?


Why did a Illinois senator propose to let Kansas and Nebraska decide if they would be a free or slave state? Probably because the story is more nuanced than it seems.
Detmersdislocatedshoulder
How long do you want to ignore this user?
WeasleyIsOurKing said:

I changed my opinion in light of new evidence presented to me. A very healthy thing for a mind to do, and it's the same reason I'm not a Republican anymore.


I respect those that can do this. I do find it puzzling how someone who apparently is this open minded and logical thinking ended up moving to the left. The attributes you used to make that switch are not part of the typical liberal make up. Have you become more emotional since you converted?
wargograw
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Smokedraw01 said:

wargograw said:

Can anyone explain to me why the Philadelphia Mint produced the Stone Mountain silver dollar in 1925 to commemorate "the valor of the southern soldier"?

Just a bunch of racists in Congress and in Philadelphia or what?


Why did a Illinois senator propose to let Kansas and Nebraska decide if they would be a free or slave state? Probably because the story is more nuanced than it seems.
Yes, it is.....
rocky the dog
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

Mond shouldn't be judged by one game in his career, and neither should Sully.
Elections are when people find out what politicians stand for, and politicians find out what people will fall for.
rocky the dog
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Elections are when people find out what politicians stand for, and politicians find out what people will fall for.
$3 Sack of Groceries
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Detmersdislocatedshoulder said:

WeasleyIsOurKing said:

I changed my opinion in light of new evidence presented to me. A very healthy thing for a mind to do, and it's the same reason I'm not a Republican anymore.


I respect those that can do this. I do find it puzzling how someone who apparently is this open minded and logical thinking ended up moving to the left. The attributes you used to make that switch are not part of the typical liberal make up. Have you become more emotional since you converted?


Pro tip: he's lying.
AgExcel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Neutral position question: What does the statue accomplish? If it is simply a statue to honor him and not a symbol of anything racist or particularly relevant today, what does it matter if it stays at the center or in Cushing as some have suggested, since then he'd still be on campus?

On the one hand, Sully helped save A&M, but on the other hand the campus at the time was all white male and very different from today. Rudder allowed integration and is arguably more relevant and crucial to shaping campus to be more inclusive. Shouldn't his statue have center place or at least more emphasis than Sully's?

It is argued that a major issue with the Sully statue is the fact it stands as the centerpiece of campus. If we change its position to match its relevancy to current students, then we can end the debate and still have the statue on campus somewhere still honoring him as president, but not seem like we are honoring a Confederate soldier by putting him in a place of prominence.

1965, this debate came up with the statue being covered in flowers and peace symbols. Then again periodically every few years, seemingly every time someone figures out he's a Confederate soldier (I didn't even know back in the day since I was more concerned about classes than anything else). If we already know it has been a divisive object, we should try and figure out some kind of compromise in order to really make our Aggie family more cohesive rather than keep attacking each other (both sides).

If we keep it at the center, we should at least be academically honest and talk about his career as a soldier and why it is not something we emulate, instead of leaving it out of the tour while having it inscribed on the back. If we don't feel that we can take the time to talk about his Confederate contributions during the tour, then we should move it to somewhere we are, whether that be in Cushing or even the art gallery in the MSC (it is still a beautiful work of art) where he'd be with other respected dead.

I'd rather this argument be ended than have it continue into perpetuity or until some radical decides it really should be simply smashed/permanently disfigured. Possibly commission a new one with Sully shaking hands with Gaines recognizing their combined work, and then add to the tour "While Sully did fight in the Confederacy, he later sought to redeem himself by securing funds for both TAMU and PVAMU. We do not honor his actions as a soldier, but as a man repentant who then sought to do his best to help those he could in the capacity he had by working with many key figures of color. [Name those figures too]." Maybe lead with Gaines' contributions since without his work A&M wouldn't have been funded, and Sully couldn't have done what he did. Many seem to think he was our first campus president, but Thomas Gathright was. I agree with OP that some compromise should be reached so the university can stop having nothing but bad PR, and this debate can finally be ended.
$3 Sack of Groceries
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
ATM9000 said:

Clob94 said:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/507858-gop-senate-candidate-calls-confederate-monuments-symbols-of-hope?amp

Succinctly put. Statues remind us of mistakes. Mistakes must be acknowledged. Mistakes must be remembered so they're never made again.


That's what this is about---- perception. One side thinks these statues are meant to glorify. The other side thinks these statues are meant as reminders to an unjust era.


Well then let's leave breadcrumbs for people to learn from our mistakes today then. If statues aren't about idolization of people and really mistake reminders then let's go ahead and erect some antifa statues in the CHAZ/CHOP in a few years. I mean... you'd be in favor of that so people in the area know that it was a massive mistake right?


You're really good at logic and rhetoric.
AndesAg92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Troutslime said:

Mond shouldn't be judged by one game in his career, and neither should Sully.


Fair point but I've been upset with most his games honestly outside LSU OT.
Ag_SGT
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
WeasleyIsOurKing said:

Quote:

The other side thinks these statues are meant as reminders to an unjust era.
Because they were.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/07/toppling-statues-is-first-step-toward-ending-confederate-myths/

From the NatGeo article:
Quote:

Most of the statues were erected between 1890 and 1930 during the rise of Jim Crow laws intended to enforce racial segregation.
Quote:

The statues along Richmond's Monument Avenue, like others across America, were erected decades after the Civil War. At that point in history, says Julian Hayter, a professor of leadership studies at the University of Richmond, "White Southerners had come to terms with slavery being over. What they hadn't come to terms with was their loss of status."
Quote:

In their disfigurement, the statues had become like the Venus de Milo, telling a story much longer and richer in truth than the one intended by its creator.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/confederate-statues/

From the fivethirtyeight article:

Quote:

An overwhelming majority of Confederate memorials weren't erected in the years directly following the Civil War. Instead, most were put up decades later. Nor were they built just to commemorate fallen generals and soldiers; they were installed as symbols of white supremacy during periods of U.S. history when Black Americans' civil rights were aggressively under attack. In total, at least 830 such monuments were constructed across the U.S, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center
Quote:

The biggest spike in Confederate memorials came during the early 1900s, soon after Southern states enacted a number of sweeping laws to disenfranchise Black Americans and segregate society. During this period, more than 400 monuments were built as part of an organized strategy to reshape Civil War history. And this effort was largely spearheaded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who sponsored hundreds of statues, predominantly in the South in the early 20th century and as recently as 2011.
Quote:

Black Americans have long understood the symbolism of those monuments. "I know what this statue means," said Brooks. "It's a reminder to stay in my place."

Not just statues were erected during this period, either. Following the landmark Brown versus Board of Education decision in 1954, which said maintaining racially segregated schools was unconstitutional, there was an uptick in the number of colleges and schools named after Confederate soldiers and generals: From 1954 to 1970, at least 45 were named after Confederates.

I used to be against their removal. I bought into the argument about "rewriting history" with the removal of statues. I don't buy it anymore. We have history books, and the Civil War will always be taught. We know the Confederacy was five years of treasonous Americans fighting for a cause that hasn't been legal now for nearly 150 years. Removing statues is a necessary action that must continue until every Confederate "hero" is no longer memorialized.
How long did it take to erect the WWII memorial, the Korean War Memorial and other war memorials in DC? Most were decades after the conflicts ended. Pretty sure that immediately following the Civil War the South had other things they needed to spend money on other than statues
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin
Clob94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATM9000 said:

Clob94 said:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/507858-gop-senate-candidate-calls-confederate-monuments-symbols-of-hope?amp

Succinctly put. Statues remind us of mistakes. Mistakes must be acknowledged. Mistakes must be remembered so they're never made again.


That's what this is about---- perception. One side thinks these statues are meant to glorify. The other side thinks these statues are meant as reminders to an unjust era.


Well then let's leave breadcrumbs for people to learn from our mistakes today then. If statues aren't about idolization of people and really mistake reminders then let's go ahead and erect some antifa statues in the CHAZ/CHOP in a few years. I mean... you'd be in favor of that so people in the area know that it was a massive mistake right?
Once Antifa is completely crushed, after a few years had passed, absolutely. To show the sheer ignorance of what hypocrisy is. Using fascist tactics and claiming to be anti-fascist is definitely a lesson people should remember and never repeat. Great idea actually.
$3 Sack of Groceries
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
AgExcel said:

Neutral position question: What does the statue accomplish? If it is simply a statue to honor him and not a symbol of anything racist or particularly relevant today, what does it matter if it stays at the center or in Cushing as some have suggested, since then he'd still be on campus?

On the one hand, Sully helped save A&M, but on the other hand the campus at the time was all white male and very different from today. Rudder allowed integration and is arguably more relevant and crucial to shaping campus to be more inclusive. Shouldn't his statue have center place or at least more emphasis than Sully's?

It is argued that a major issue with the Sully statue is the fact it stands as the centerpiece of campus. If we change its position to match its relevancy to current students, then we can end the debate and still have the statue on campus somewhere still honoring him as president, but not seem like we are honoring a Confederate soldier by putting him in a place of prominence.

1965, this debate came up with the statue being covered in flowers and peace symbols. Then again periodically every few years, seemingly every time someone figures out he's a Confederate soldier (I didn't even know back in the day since I was more concerned about classes than anything else). If we already know it has been a divisive object, we should try and figure out some kind of compromise in order to really make our Aggie family more cohesive rather than keep attacking each other (both sides).

If we keep it at the center, we should at least be academically honest and talk about his career as a soldier and why it is not something we emulate, instead of leaving it out of the tour while having it inscribed on the back. If we don't feel that we can take the time to talk about his Confederate contributions during the tour, then we should move it to somewhere we are, whether that be in Cushing or even the art gallery in the MSC (it is still a beautiful work of art) where he'd be with other respected dead.

I'd rather this argument be ended than have it continue into perpetuity or until some radical decides it really should be simply smashed/permanently disfigured. Possibly commission a new one with Sully shaking hands with Gaines recognizing their combined work, and then add to the tour "While Sully did fight in the Confederacy, he later sought to redeem himself by securing funds for both TAMU and PVAMU. We do not honor his actions as a soldier, but as a man repentant who then sought to do his best to help those he could in the capacity he had by working with many key figures of color. [Name those figures too]." Maybe lead with Gaines' contributions since without his work A&M wouldn't have been funded, and Sully couldn't have done what he did. Many seem to think he was our first campus president, but Thomas Gathright was. I agree with OP that some compromise should be reached so the university can stop having nothing but bad PR, and this debate can finally be ended.

The problem here is that you are not playing the same game as the Marxists. While you are attempting a bit of nobility (I disagree with your argument, mind you, but you're making a noble attempt nonetheless) in an attempt to find an agreeble solution, the Marxist are not interested in a solution, other than their "final solution".
No matter what is done with Sully, they will not be placated. See the ridiculous comments made about renaming Kyle Field as an example of this.
It will be Rudder next because he held political office in segregated Texas. It will be General Hollingsworth because he served in a segregated Army. It will be E. King Gill because he played on a segregated team.
This is t about racial injustice. This is about vengeance and the complete dismantling of the United States of America as a republic/representative democracy built on our traditional values of freedom, liberty, and the rule of law.
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.