China Coronavirus Outbreak Spreads; Hundreds Infected As Human-To-Human Transmission

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Bobcat06
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Op Ed in Beligan newspaper by a specialist who researches SARS human coronavirus:

Link is in French: https://www.rtbf.be/info/opinions/detail_lettre-ouverte-a-la-ministre-de-la-sante-publique-coronavirus-il-faut-savoir-ecouter-la-peur?id=10443799

Run thru Google Translate
Quote:

Dear Minister,

You assure the country that we are ready to face the new coronavirus, and yet certain key frontline players, nurses and doctors, are not reassured, and neither am I.

I am a doctor of science and I led a group of researchers studying human coronaviruses in general in the United States, and the group responsible for the SARS epidemic, SARS-CoV, in particular. I did this work in two institutions, as a member of the faculty of the College of Medicine at the University of Cincinnati and as an investigator at the only institute in the world devoted exclusively to research on respiratory diseases, in Albuquerque, where I had the opportunity to study all aspects of aerosol production and aerosol transmission. In these two institutions, I was one of the officers responsible for ensuring that all experiments involving infectious or recombinant agents comply with all the rules and do not pose a danger to the general public.

I have already sent you a file via the SPF Health website on February 12, which indicates that if the proportion of symptomatic cases due to the new coronavirus reaches 1% of the population, we would be on the verge of a hospital crisis due to lack of beds (your reference: CCAL0331485). It went unanswered and that's why I'm writing to you directly.

Your public statements suggest that you do not fully understand the nature of the danger that Belgium and the rest of the world face. I would like to draw your attention to two essential points about the new coronavirus which seem to have been given insufficient consideration.

In an interview published on Wednesday 26, you answer the question "But how many beds do we have exactly?" : "You know that in Belgium we have enough beds and sufficient treatment capacity. This is an advantage. When we compare with a winter flu and the number of elderly patients who are generally hospitalized, the situation is identical" .

In my file, I cited the WHO, which on February 10 estimated that ~ 16% of symptomatic patients were in a condition serious enough to require hospitalization. Influenza ? ~ 0.2% of cases! The relationship between the two? A factor of 80 is therefore not an identical situation, the first essential point that is overlooked.

The WHO fact-finding mission to China released its report yesterday, it is worth consulting. We now have more precise figures for symptomatic patients: 80% of mild cases (can stay at home), 13% of severe cases (hospitalization), 6% of critical cases (intensive care).

Would you be so kind, Madam Minister, you who have access to all the information on the Belgian hospital network, to calculate for our edification to all: from how many symptomatic cases would the Belgian hospital system run out hospital beds for severe and critical cases?

There is a cacophony of incorrect information circulating not only in the written and audiovisual press about the new coronavirus, but also on the SPF Health and Sciensano websites. The official position appears to be that COVID-19 is a SARS-2.0 and therefore the measures that would be appropriate for SRAS-1.0 will be suitable for COVID-19.

This is unfortunately a false equivalence and it is urgent to understand the essential difference between the spread of the virus responsible for SARS-1.0 and that of the new coronavirus. SARS-CoV was mainly transmitted by surface contamination and by postillions, which travel no more than one meter, but rarely by aerosol. Everything indicates that a significant proportion of transmission of the new coronavirus is by aerosol, which completely changes the situation for isolation measures.

The first cases of SARS in November 2002 were detected in the city of Shenzhen, 7 million people at the time, and ultimately infected 5,327 people in China. The first cases of COVID-19 were detected in December 2019 in the city of Wuhan, 11 million inhabitants, and have infected 78,497 individuals in China to date (according to the Chinese government; nearly one million after some epidemiologists), the first indication of the difference between the two viruses.

The basic reproduction number of the new coronavirus is between 4.7 and 7 according to the calculations of different epidemiologists, which is different from the effective reproduction number calculated by the WHO (2.5), the difference being that the number base corresponds to the situation without isolation measures, and the actual number changes depending on the implementation of different isolation measures.

Take the situation of Italy. The first two cases are confirmed in Milan on January 31 and we are 655 cases 28 days later. The epidemiology tells us to take the logarithm to base 2 of 655 cases divided by the two initial cases, namely roughly 8.3, and therefore the number of cases doubled every 3.3 days, close to doubling all 2.4 days in the absence of insulation, and while insulation measures have been in place for a few days. These figures are consistent with a high number of reproductions.

So, we have an epidemic at least 10 times larger than SARS-1.0 at the same time in China, a new coronavirus of great intrinsic contagiousness, epidemiologists who calculate that one infection in two could be caused by a person still asymptomatic, and we also have multiple episodes of super contagion. What to conclude? You will not find many transmission experts who will tell you anything else that this new virus can be transmitted by aerosol, the second essential point that has been overlooked so far.

You recognize that the virus is more contagious, but what is the implication? If the flu virus infects 2 to 8% of the population, year after year, and this virus is more contagious than the flu, what will prevent it from spreading at least like the flu in an immunologically naive population?

With the absence at present of a vaccine or of an effective treatment against this new coronavirus, the question of availability of hospital beds takes on all its significance and its urgency, given the much higher rate of complications with this coronavirus.

It is not necessary to have a debate among the experts, although in a crisis situation it is always good to confront the divergent views of the experts, because the Public Health function asks it to prepare for the worst scenario , not the most rosy. Experts and officials in other western countries also recognize the seriousness of the risk we all face.

You told us that the objective is "to keep the virus out of the country as long as possible thanks to adequate surveillance of the territory", but we learn from a courageous nurse who returns from Veneto, a region of Italy with a few cases of COVID-19, that not only are we not asking them to isolate themselves, and we are asking them to return to work immediately, but we are also refusing to test them!

Not only is it not tested, but it also tells us that there is actually an omerta against screening for the new coronavirus for cases of flu symptoms not related to a Chinese connection. Explain to us, Madam Minister, exactly how you adequately monitor the territory when the most basic screening is not done?

We also wonder about the lack of recommendation, screening, quarantine and supervision for people who return to Belgium from a contaminated area, also knowing that the incubation period can exceed two weeks and that there are cured patients who have been reinfected.

General practitioners are concerned about the lack of serious communication from the Ministry of Health, an email is not enough in this situation. They contrast the current response to that during the H1N1 epidemic in 2009 when they received clear information and masks. Nor should we ignore their request to have a system in place to support individuals who should remain isolated.

Why wait to protect medical personnel when the Chinese government admits that more than 3,000 medical personnel have been infected in Wuhan? Would we be so short of the necessary equipment? What is the situation from a logistical point of view? You say we are ready, but we would not even have masks for general practitioners?

What can we say to the families of infected or even deceased medical personnel, if we were to deplore victims whose infection could have been prevented by the earlier implementation of personal protection measures?

Zhong Nanshan, who heads the COVID-19 team of experts at the Chinese Ministry of Health, said the epidemic had been "a hard lesson" for the country: "If we had taken strict prevention measures in early December or even early January would have greatly reduced the number of sick, "he said at a press conference.

The Chinese authorities made the same initial error with SARS and COVID-19, but have since mobilized to fight the virus with the extremely strict measures that are necessary when a virus is transmitted by aerosol and asymptomatically. We are making the same initial mistake as the Chinese!

And lessons must now be learned from the first phase of this epidemic, how the Chinese have moved from a very large quarantine model, 400 million people, to a flexible and targeted approach. The number of cases that will emerge as the population returns to normal remains to be seen, but the very advanced surveillance system suggests that they will be able to contain these new cases.

Shouldn't we follow the lessons of China, and also follow the adage that prevention is better than cure? Today, faced with this coronavirus, we have no vaccine or treatment available, which, logically, should push us to implement a whole series of preventive actions given this lack of cure solutions. It is imperative to mobilize the population and all healthcare personnel to enable prevention to play its role through an information campaign on the scale of the challenge facing Belgium.

Fear can be rational, as fear can be irrational. Fear is an essential emotion for our survival, and we must be able to listen to it. I want to keep my fingers crossed that Belgium will be spared and that the spread of the virus will slow down with the end of winter, but I think that the government, whose fundamental function is to protect the public, could do more in this situation and I remain at your disposal if my expertise can be useful.



Marc Wathelet is a doctor of science. He studied chemistry at the Free University of Brussels and holds a doctorate in molecular biology. Having traveled to the United States for 25 years, he went through Harvard, the University of Cincinnati and an institute for research on respiratory diseases in Albuquerque.

Big Al 1992
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For the most part most of what was predicted in the first few pages of this post have come true. Not the loony crazy stuff and no one has been welded in their building.
It would be here in the US. it will spread, There will be deaths, the elderly and sick will be most at risk. Flights cancelled, schools closed. And it has the potential to do big damage at nursing homes. Here we are. But it's not the end of the world and no zombie sightings yet.
Big Al 1992
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I still think it's pretty impressive that there is even a test for a virus one knew about 90 days ago. A lot of good medicine being practiced.
FamousAgg
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Pulmonary specialist working I believe in Southern California. This will be a good channel to keep an eye on if your into that sort of thing.

Nitro Power
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Hard to argue this point. I won't bring the certain few up on this board blaming "Trump", but what the administration has done to this point I think is pretty good. In part because of what you just mentioned. But some prefer to focus on what hasn't been done rather than what has.
When you fall to your knees and ask God for help, don’t forget to fall back on your knees and say ‘thank you’ when He answers.- Steve Torrence
Zobel
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If you're talking about the WaPo op-ed that said "not that bad" he had a 103 fever and was in the hospital for 10 days on an IV with ibuprofen controlling his fever. He's still testing positive for it 12 days later. He has shortness of breath. That's not my definition of "not that bad".
IrishTxAggie
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Nuclear Scramjet said:

IrishTxAggie said:

Nuclear Scramjet said:



Here is another reason why this could be bad.


Chinese aren't in shape. Their life expectancy is ~2.5yrs less than Americans


Obesity and diabetes are far worse for you than smoking. Further, these groups are disproportionately affected by diseases like this.


Chinese outrank the US in diabetes.
https://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/67/1/3

I spend a lot of time over there and eat their foods. They're not a healthy nation
Nitro Power
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I'm talking about the two separate interviews I watched on TV today with the people, saying it was not what it was made out to be. I'm just going by what they said, doubt they really have a clue though.
When you fall to your knees and ask God for help, don’t forget to fall back on your knees and say ‘thank you’ when He answers.- Steve Torrence
BowSowy
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VaultingChemist said:

Something to consider:

Years ago, an RNA virus with an R0 between 5 and 7 caused no symptoms in 72% of cases and mild flu-like symptoms in 24% of cases. Thus about 96% of those infected had virtually no problems.

During a three-year period, an average of 16,316 severe cases and 1879 deaths from this disease were reported each year. Not a big deal, right?

Why was our country so concerned about this virus?

Because in a small number of cases it caused meningitis and in a even smaller number (0.1% to 0.5%) it caused permanent paralysis. Of those that were paralyzed, only about 10% died.

Poliomyelitis was almost entirely eradicated by a vaccine, and was soon forgotten by all but those who were permanently disabled.


I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I truly don't understand why this is "something to consider". I've seen nothing suggesting COVID-19 causes permanent paralysis, so what's the lesson you're trying to glean from this example?
Zobel
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Quote:

Flu illness symptoms have a spectrum. In fact you can get flu and not even get a fever. Do you think those guys order a home flu kit them call into to report they were positive, but didn't go to doctor. How do you even come up with a stat that half of flu people didn't go to doctor? How many people even confirm they got flu without visiting doctor?? We know even less about corona virus in that regard. That's my only point. The CV numbers will go up, but death and real threat to health won't reach flu levels. That's why economy will recover when deaths stay in thousands as it is contained.
Sure, 14% of people are more or less immune to the flu. They get the disease but don't get symptoms. Do you know why that is? Because the flu has been around for a long time and we have some innate resistance to it. That's not the case with this, as the post above notes we are 'immunologically naive' to this virus. As far as I understand it that is part of the reason the incubation period is 2x that of the flu.

I came up with the stat from the CDC.
46% see a doc https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm

I linked a study earlier for COVID19.

Quote:

In this study in the NEJM of 1099 patients the median was 47 years. 5% were admitted to the ICU, 2.3% were ventilated, 1.4% died.

56% had ground-glass opacity on a chest x-ray, 52% had patchy shadowing (signs of pneumonia or damage to alveoli).

Most common symptom was fever, followed by cough, then a small amount had nausea or vomiting and diarrhea. According to the paper this is a difference in viral tropism (i.e., which cells the virus infects) from SARS, MERS, and seasonal flu.

Roughly 18% of cases were classified as severe. Older people were more like to have a severe case (median was 54 years for severe vs 47 overall).

91% were diagnosed with pneumonia including 89.5% of nonsevere cases.

41% required supplemental oxygen including 35% of nonsevere cases.

93.6% of cases were hospitalized, with a median length of stay at the hospital of 12 days, mean 12.8.
That's not like the flu.

You seem certain, and I really don't understand why.
Nuclear Scramjet
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8059385/Amazing-NASA-images-pollution-CLEARED-China.html



Wow. This map effectively shows that China's industry has completely shut down. Shut down over something that is just like the flu!
Zobel
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It wouldn't surprise me that a normally healthy person in their 30s gets a fever, a dry cough, fatigue, feels like crap for a week, and then gets better. But if this stays consistently around ~1% fatality rate with high infectious spread, it will be serious.

The NEJM study I linked earlier notes that this has different viral tropism than seasonal flu - it attacks different organs. The larger studies that have been put out indicate that heart disease is the highest contributor to morbidity. That's not like flu, as far as I know. The point is, I suppose, that even if the risk to an average 18-34 year old is stone cold dead zero this could still be a bad time for lots of people.
AgFan2015
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Not long now....
Nitro Power
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I'm not disputing that, but so was Zika, swine flu, bird flu, etc. My point is I don't believe anything coming from the media or other countries. Positive or negative. At the same time I'm not going to let fear dictate how I live my life and I don't think anyone else should either. Just my opinion though.

For the record, I'm no one to say whether it's like a flu, cold or whatever, as I am not educated in such matters.
When you fall to your knees and ask God for help, don’t forget to fall back on your knees and say ‘thank you’ when He answers.- Steve Torrence
VaultingChemist
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BowSowy said:

VaultingChemist said:

Something to consider:

Years ago, an RNA virus with an R0 between 5 and 7 caused no symptoms in 72% of cases and mild flu-like symptoms in 24% of cases. Thus about 96% of those infected had virtually no problems.

During a three-year period, an average of 16,316 severe cases and 1879 deaths from this disease were reported each year. Not a big deal, right?

Why was our country so concerned about this virus?

Because in a small number of cases it caused meningitis and in a even smaller number (0.1% to 0.5%) it caused permanent paralysis. Of those that were paralyzed, only about 10% died.

Poliomyelitis was almost entirely eradicated by a vaccine, and was soon forgotten by all but those who were permanently disabled.


I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I truly don't understand why this is "something to consider". I've seen nothing suggesting COVID-19 causes permanent paralysis, so what's the lesson you're trying to glean from this example?
The point is that COVID-19 has 3 times the complication rate as polio and 4 times the death rate as polio, yet a lot of people are rationalizing that COVID-19 is just a "very bad flu".

I am not trying to alarm you. I just want you to be aware of the threat we are facing.
TRADUCTOR
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Lemmings go quiet you panic
When lemmings panic...go quiet
Zobel
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Whiskey Jacket said:

I'm not disputing that, but so was Zika, swine flu, bird flu, etc. My point is I don't believe anything coming from the media or other countries. Positive or negative. At the same time I'm not going to let fear dictate how I live my life and I don't think anyone else should either. Just my opinion though.

For the record, I'm no one to say whether it's like a flu, cold or whatever, as I am not educated in such matters.
Always the billy badasses on here making their own bravery somehow the litmus test for the severity of this event. This is like some kind of subtle narcissism. It's really fascinating to watch.

Blanket disbelief is kind of a nonsense approach. That means you don't trust any information. So you don't believe the people on the news who you just offered as evidence that it wasn't bad. This is intentionally forming an opinion in the absence of any and all reliable evidence. Why would you do that?

Take the best information you can and make as informed of an opinion. Then hedge your position. Then get on with life.
Nuclear Scramjet
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Lots of links in that thread. I don't know if this is credible but either way very eye-opening and concerning.
Rossticus
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k2aggie07 said:

Whiskey Jacket said:

I'm not disputing that, but so was Zika, swine flu, bird flu, etc. My point is I don't believe anything coming from the media or other countries. Positive or negative. At the same time I'm not going to let fear dictate how I live my life and I don't think anyone else should either. Just my opinion though.

For the record, I'm no one to say whether it's like a flu, cold or whatever, as I am not educated in such matters.
Always the billy badasses on here making their own bravery somehow the litmus test for the severity of this event. This is like some kind of subtle narcissism. It's really fascinating to watch.

Blanket disbelief is kind of a nonsense approach. That means you don't trust any information. So you don't believe the people on the news who you just offered as evidence that it wasn't bad. This is intentionally forming an opinion in the absence of any and all reliable evidence. Why would you do that?

Take the best information you can and make as informed of an opinion. Then hedge your position. Then get on with life.


Don't be silly. You reverse engineer an opinion from established preconceptions and cherry pick anecdotal evidence in support of that opinion after the fact. Everyone knows that.
CS78
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Say it does actually get bad, and you had the means to easily remove your family from society. How long would it take something like this to run its cycle?
Nitro Power
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Doomsdayers on here say this is the end of times, so forever...
When you fall to your knees and ask God for help, don’t forget to fall back on your knees and say ‘thank you’ when He answers.- Steve Torrence
claym711
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Then why follow this thread so closely and post so often?
Rapier108
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Quote:

Lots of links in that thread. I don't know if this is credible but either way very eye-opening and concerning.
A random Twitter account, with absolutely no way to verify if any of it is credible, but you posted it anyway.

Same thing when you posted some random animated film maker's tweet that a 19 year old died of the virus in Washington.

Just because it is on Twitter does not make it true. The guy could be sitting at his computer in some hole in the wall in West Virginia.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
Nuclear Scramjet
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Rapier108 said:

Quote:

Lots of links in that thread. I don't know if this is credible but either way very eye-opening and concerning.
A random Twitter account, with absolutely no way to verify if any of it is credible, but you posted it anyway.

Same thing when you posted some random animated film maker's tweet that a 19 year old died of the virus in Washington.

Just because it is on Twitter does not make it true. The guy could be sitting at his computer in some hole in the wall in West Virginia.


Look at all of the links in that thread. It contains tons of videos, Iranian reports, news articles and more.
Fizban
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Search #Costco...

What does it say about our society that when people panic-buy it is toilet paper above all that they are hoarding?

Bobcat06
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Rapier108 said:

Quote:

Lots of links in that thread. I don't know if this is credible but either way very eye-opening and concerning.
A random Twitter account, with absolutely no way to verify if any of it is credible, but you posted it anyway.

Same thing when you posted some random animated film maker's tweet that a 19 year old died of the virus in Washington.

Just because it is on Twitter does not make it true. The guy could be sitting at his computer in some hole in the wall in West Virginia.


The tweet claiming a 19 year old died came from NBC news.

There's a lot of wrong information regardless of how reputable the source.

It's better to have information than not have it, so quit attacking those who bring information.
Rapier108
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Bobcat06 said:

Rapier108 said:

Quote:

Lots of links in that thread. I don't know if this is credible but either way very eye-opening and concerning.
A random Twitter account, with absolutely no way to verify if any of it is credible, but you posted it anyway.

Same thing when you posted some random animated film maker's tweet that a 19 year old died of the virus in Washington.

Just because it is on Twitter does not make it true. The guy could be sitting at his computer in some hole in the wall in West Virginia.


The tweet claiming a 19 year old died came from NBC news.

There's a lot of wrong information regardless of how reputable the source.

It's better to have information than not have it, so quit attacking those who bring information.
Calling another poster an idiot is an attack.

Having a critical opinion of something posted is not.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
cisgenderedAggie
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Cook County, IL

Not sure if seen this one yet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/cook-county-state-health-officials-confirm-coronavirus-case/2228843/%3famp
hoosierAG
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Coming to your citay
thirdcoast
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I never said it was like the flu. Maybe worse on micro basis and but not close on macro. I am basically saying that when this thing peaks it won't come close to the deaths of flu. The biggest difference is we don't have a way to test or vaccinate CV like we do common flu.

I understand CDC and others have best guesses based on assumptions and sample data sets. I would trust flu stats MUCH more than CV stats bc lack of data in latter. Like any virus the body produces antibodies and builds resistance. You hear waaaay more about those folks who can't fight off the disease and virtually nothing from those that do. Until we have reliable testing/tracking we can't make the same assumptions about CV as we do for flu.

Number of confirmed cases will go up for 3 main reasons:

1) there is no vaccine
2) the production of tests will increase detection
3) mild and asymptomatic hosts will continue to spread

At some point the public will realize this is not the Ebola like illness it is being compared to. It will be a rougue flu strain or bird flu or corona sars/flu within 6 months and the worst damage will have all been done in the economy. Testing kits will be mass produced, vaccines in trial will be announced, but the key is that mortality rate will decrease as detection of non-lethal cases increases. Its simple math, the ratio of deaths to survival will improve when more survivors are detected with the advent of test kits and better data.

TexasAggie_02
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Fizban said:


Search #Costco...

What does it say about our society that when people panic-buy it is toilet paper above all that they are hoarding?




Why not hoard toilet paper? It doesn't go bad, and you will eventually use it all. There's a reason backpackers refer to it as "mountain money"
PJYoung
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https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Zobel
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Quote:

At some point the public will realize this is not the Ebola like illness it is being compared to. It will be a rougue flu strain or bird flu or corona sars/flu within 6 months and the worst damage will have all been done in the economy. Testing kits will be mass produced, vaccines in trial will be announced, but the key is that mortality rate will decrease as detection of non-lethal cases increases. Its simple math, the ratio of deaths to survival will improve when more survivors are detected with the advent of test kits and better data.
no one is comparing it to Ebola. Probably the most pessimistic comparison is the Spanish flu in 1918.

The number of confirmed cases will go up for all those reasons, sure. But the number of severe cases will go up as well.

It's already passed SARS.

Did you read the study I linked or the summary I wrote?

This already went "wide" in China. There was a study of 72,000 cases with 42,000 someodd confirmed diagnoses. 5% mortality in Hubei. Less than 1% outside. Likely due to decrease quality of care in Hubei due to overstretched resources. Sure, it's not the same quality of data as the flu but we're not taking about 1000 cases here.
PJYoung
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k2aggie07 said:

This already went "wide" in China. There was a study of 72,000 cases with 42,000 some odd confirmed diagnoses. 5% mortality in Hubei. Less than 1% outside. Likely due to decrease quality of care in Hubei due to overstretched resources. Sure, it's not the same quality of data as the flu but we're not taking about 1000 cases here.

So that information combined with what Dr. Bruce Alyward of WHO said is pretty scary:

Quote:

But the bottom line is this virus kills people, you've seen that. And it kills vulnerable people,
it kills our elderly. And what we think of as society is how we care for the vulnerable in our
populations, not just And I hear people say, yes, but the young survive and all is good.
Seriously. And that's not always the case either. Young people do die of this disease, as you
have seen as well, and they die in industrialised countries. And I think people were also
looking sometimes at this and saying, but in China, they don't have this, they don't have that.
If I had COVID-19 I'd want to be treated in China.

We'd go into these hospitals and how many ventilators do you have? 50, 60. Just a scale
we're not used to thinking of.

So, when we look at how dangerous this disease is, I think we have to be careful looking at
the China data, because China knows how to keep people alive from COVID, they're super
committed to it, and they're making a massive investment in it as well.
That's not going to
be the case everywhere in the world. And as you've seen, we have tragically lost people,
people in G7 countries are dying of this disease. So, it is a serious disease and I worry
sometimes that if we look at the China numbers, people are going to get a false sense of
security. These people know and they care about keeping these people alive, and they do it
successfully. They're really good at it.
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