eric76 said:

---

Agnzona said:

---

Again not likely as it was argued it was too broad and could be used for political reasons.

---

Do you have any cites for accounts of the arguments about using the word malfeasance in reference to impeachments?

---

Actually it's Mal Administration, my bad. There is plenty written on it.

eric76 said:

---

taxpreparer said:

---

Investigating now will only add fuel to the "President trump is using the power of his office to investigate his political rivals." accusations. Unless the Democrats do the investigating, it will only bee seen as a political move. Even then, can you imagine the backlash if Bernie Sanders, or Elizabeth Warren called for a full investigation of Hunter BIden and Joe's involvement?

---

The House or Senate could surely do their own investigation. The DOJ could as well.

I believe that I've read that the President is best advised to leave DOJ investigations and prosecutions up to the DOJ. He certainly should not be urging investigations of his opponents for his own political benefit. Let the DOJ do its job.

---

Yes, in a perfect world. In to day';s climate; it is all seen as us vs. them.

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

hbtheduce said:

---

Joe Biden is such an upstanding American institution, that it was political abuse to ask another country to look into his sons apparent conflict of interest with an corrupt company in the country in question.

Sounds like a winning political strategy to me.

---

Investigate him properly and if the results warrant it, put him on trial. Imprison him if convicted.

---

If you had to investigate a powerful politician's son for crimes in another country, whats the best way to go about it? Take into account the history of Ukraine, getting evidence, the credibility of the investigation, etc.

Your inference that ONLY a domestic investigation is a proper investigation, is a false characterization. Not only would an investigation spearheaded by Ukraine be less politically biased, it also tests the new administration's commitment to "fighting corruption", and puts Ukraine publicly on the same side of the US DOJ for pursuing evidence and testimony.

---

Whether or not another country investigates Biden's son or any other US citizen is properly left up to that country to make their own decisions.

What do you even expect from an investigation into Biden or his son? We are highly unlikely to extradict either of them to the Ukraine. If they are going to be held responsible, it is going to have to be here and for violations of US law. Considering that, the only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -- it is extremely doubtful that they would ever appear there for a trial.

eric76 said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

How could the Senate consider allegations that are not part of the Articles of
Impeachment. Seems to me the house would have to redraft and revote for anything new to be included.

---

Precisely.

It shouldn't surprise anyone if they tried, though.

---

Yep, nothing from your team would surprise me. They're despicable to the core.

BuddysBud said:

---

thirdcoast said:

---

Nothing says power play like fumbling a single impeachment question and demanding press ask no more impeachment qs.

---

"Frankly, I don't care what the Republicans say."

So much for any bipartisanship from the Democrats regarding impeachment. This statement alone should be enough to drop the impeachment cold. She indirectly admits that this entire sham is just a partisan coup to remove a duly elected president.

---

Exactly, the Dems entire strategy depends on the press carrying their water on impeachment. And now Pelosi just scolded the press on questioning her about it. The vast majority of media will kow-tow to their master, but a few will call out the hypocrisy.

Agnzona said:

---

eric76 said:

---

Agnzona said:

---

Again not likely as it was argued it was too broad and could be used for political reasons.

---

Do you have any cites for accounts of the arguments about using the word malfeasance in reference to impeachments?

---

Actually it's Mal Administration, my bad. There is plenty written on it.

---

Okay. I've seen that. It was also discussed in the link I posted.

Thanks for the clarification.

From the link:

Quote:

---

But Mason's first choice of a catch-all term "mal-administration" drew Madison's objection as to vagueness. This might reduce the executive to service at the pleasure of two-thirds of the Senate, Madison feared. Whereupon, Mason proposed the substitute "other high crimes and misdemeanors against the state" the more familiar term of art drawn from longstanding English practice. The substituted language was a reasonably close substitute for mal-administration. (Recall that Blackstone had classed as a "high misdemeanor" the mal-administration of high officers of government.) But "high Crimes and Misdemeanors" arguably had a more precise and more familiar meaning drawn from longstanding English practice and usage, of which the framers evidently were aware. The specific historical term-of-art clearly retained the idea of abuse of authority or official misconduct as impeachable offences. But it gently shaded more in the direction of requiring some form of culpable, wrongful conduct and away from any intimation that ordinary political disagreements over administration were sufficient grounds for removal which had been Madison's concern.

---

So the objection was that "mal-administration" was vague while "high crimes and misdemeanors" was clearly understood at that period in time.

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

taxpreparer said:

---

Investigating now will only add fuel to the "President trump is using the power of his office to investigate his political rivals." accusations. Unless the Democrats do the investigating, it will only bee seen as a political move. Even then, can you imagine the backlash if Bernie Sanders, or Elizabeth Warren called for a full investigation of Hunter BIden and Joe's involvement?

---

The House or Senate could surely do their own investigation. The DOJ could as well.

I believe that I've read that the President is best advised to leave DOJ investigations and prosecutions up to the DOJ. He certainly should not be urging investigations of his opponents for his own political benefit. Let the DOJ do its job.

---

Exactly, getting a third party (and the one with jurisdiction) to start an investigation keeps the DOJ impartial and unbiased.

---

And the DOJ is the one that could potentially put them on trial. Unless they murdered someone in the Ukraine, they are highly unlikely to ever stand trial for whatever else they may have done there.

Did Nancy and the rest of the Dems ask for input from the Senate on how to handle the impeachment? If not, then why do they think they can dictate terms to the Senate?

Wait! what! I thought Trump was an eminent threat to national security how can they just sit on it?

Boo Weekley said:

---

eric76 said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

How could the Senate consider allegations that are not part of the Articles of
Impeachment. Seems to me the house would have to redraft and revote for anything new to be included.

---

Precisely.

It shouldn't surprise anyone if they tried, though.

---

Yep, nothing from your team would surprise me. They're despicable to the core.

---

My team? What kind of bull**** is that other than trolling or a personal attack?

I assume that you are talking about the Democrats, but that is not my team at all. Any attempt to say that the Democrats are my team is a lie.

Quote:

---

only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -

---

Only to embarrass them? Dude stop it already. Biden was on the take as well as his son. What they did was break the law. You can call it "favors" as some liberals have but what they did was not only wrong but illegal.

eric76 said:

---

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

taxpreparer said:

---

Investigating now will only add fuel to the "President trump is using the power of his office to investigate his political rivals." accusations. Unless the Democrats do the investigating, it will only bee seen as a political move. Even then, can you imagine the backlash if Bernie Sanders, or Elizabeth Warren called for a full investigation of Hunter BIden and Joe's involvement?

---

The House or Senate could surely do their own investigation. The DOJ could as well.

I believe that I've read that the President is best advised to leave DOJ investigations and prosecutions up to the DOJ. He certainly should not be urging investigations of his opponents for his own political benefit. Let the DOJ do its job.

---

Exactly, getting a third party (and the one with jurisdiction) to start an investigation keeps the DOJ impartial and unbiased.

---

And the DOJ is the one that could potentially put them on trial. Unless they murdered someone in the Ukraine, they are highly unlikely to ever stand trial for whatever else they may have done there.

---

I agree, an unbiased third party like Ukraine would just be the public evidence collector and face of the investigation. That way our DOJ isn't politically driven to spy on American citizens, or make up facts to fit their narrative.

If they find something, DOJ steps in, if Ukraine doesn't find anything, the Trump administration fulfilled their duty to uphold the constitution. Biden gets to shout he was cleared and Trump was scared of him.

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -

---

Only to embarrass them? Dude stop it already. Biden was on the take as well as his son. What they did was break the law. You can call it "favors" as some liberals have but what they did was not only wrong but illegal.

---

So if they are investigated and anything is found to substantiate your claim, they are going to fly over and stand trial?

Yeah, sure.

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

If you want to see them held responsible for whatever they did, it is never going to happen as a result of the Ukraine holding their own investigation, but it could happen if the DOJ investigates them here.

Don't forget that the US exerts jurisdiction over many things that happen overseas. It is illegal under Federal law to travel to another country in order to perform a number of different illegal acts. See the International Travel Act of 1961.

eric76 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

eric76 said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

How could the Senate consider allegations that are not part of the Articles of
Impeachment. Seems to me the house would have to redraft and revote for anything new to be included.

---

Precisely.

It shouldn't surprise anyone if they tried, though.

---

Yep, nothing from your team would surprise me. They're despicable to the core.

---

My team? What kind of bull**** is that other than trolling or a personal attack?

I assume that you are talking about the Democrats, but that is not my team at all. Any attempt to say that the Democrats are my team is a lie.

---

Sorry, guess I just assumed as much the way you are almost ALWAYS carrying water for the left and criticizing the right.

I would bet most people here think you're a blue dog dem who is even sympathetic to the modern dem party.

Is it a shtick or something? Devil's advocate? We have years of your posting history on here. Help me figure it out.

Quote:

---

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

---

Man....there is enough bread crumbs to follow. Why carry the torch?

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -

---

Only to embarrass them? Dude stop it already. Biden was on the take as well as his son. What they did was break the law. You can call it "favors" as some liberals have but what they did was not only wrong but illegal.

---

Do you really think that they would ever be extradicted to the Ukraine to stand trial?

Any investigation into their actions needs to be done in the US by the DOJ. There are procedures established by Treaty by which the DOJ can request the Ukraine's assistance in things like interviewing witnesses and seizing documents. If the investigation is done here, they might actually be held responsible in a court of law. If the investigation is in the Ukraine, that will never happen.

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -

---

Only to embarrass them? Dude stop it already. Biden was on the take as well as his son. What they did was break the law. You can call it "favors" as some liberals have but what they did was not only wrong but illegal.

---

So if they are investigated and anything is found to substantiate your claim, they are going to fly over and stand trial?

Yeah, sure.

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

If you want to see them held responsible for whatever they did, it is never going to happen as a result of the Ukraine holding their own investigation, but it could happen if the DOJ investigates them here.

Don't forget that the US exerts jurisdiction over many things that happen overseas. It is illegal under Federal law to travel to another country in order to perform a number of different illegal acts. See the International Travel Act of 1961.

---

And risk politicizing the DOJ & FBI? (see Russia collusion conspiracy theory)

Much better for the country to let Ukraine find the facts, then take those facts to court here in the United States. In addition, this tests how serious the new administration really is about "fighting corruption".

Win-Win

Edit: Also see how the trial for the Russian hackers has done. Because the prep work to align the DOJ and Russian Justice department was not done. None of their lawbreakers will stand trial.

Only good way to do this is to go at the problem together!

Bingo. If the DOJ were to investigate them, can you imagine the outcry by the MSM and liberals? They would be pointing to Trump and accusing him of "abuse of power". Come on dude...

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

---

Man....there is enough bread crumbs to follow. Why carry the torch?

---

If you really don't want to see them go to trial, then why even bother?

Misread

Got him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nu awlins ag said:

---

Bingo. If the DOJ were to investigate them, can you imagine the outcry by the MSM and liberals? They would be pointing to Trump and accusing him of "abuse of power". Come on dude...

---

Not if the DOJ is doing the investigation on their own because they have a clearly articulated suspicion or evidence of criminal activity, then they wouldn't have any basis in fact to accuse Trump of "abuse of power".

If, on the other hand, Trump orders the DOJ to investigate Biden, then that would indicate an "abuse of power".

The best thing Trump can do is to completely stay out of who is investigated and who isn't and leave the DOJ to do their job. If he did that, he would be much the better President as well.

Quote:

---

f, on the other hand, Trump orders the DOJ to investigate Biden, then that would indicate an "abuse of power".

---

Nope. No one is above the law.

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -

---

Only to embarrass them? Dude stop it already. Biden was on the take as well as his son. What they did was break the law. You can call it "favors" as some liberals have but what they did was not only wrong but illegal.

---

So if they are investigated and anything is found to substantiate your claim, they are going to fly over and stand trial?

Yeah, sure.

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

If you want to see them held responsible for whatever they did, it is never going to happen as a result of the Ukraine holding their own investigation, but it could happen if the DOJ investigates them here.

Don't forget that the US exerts jurisdiction over many things that happen overseas. It is illegal under Federal law to travel to another country in order to perform a number of different illegal acts. See the International Travel Act of 1961.

---

And risk politicizing the DOJ & FBI? (see Russia collusion conspiracy theory)

Much better for the country to let Ukraine find the facts, then take those facts to court here in the United States. In addition, this tests how serious the new administration really is about "fighting corruption".

Win-Win

Edit: Also see how the trial for the Russian hackers has done. Because the prep work to align the DOJ and Russian Justice department was not done. None of their lawbreakers will stand trial.

Only good way to do this is to go at the problem together!

---

I don't know about this, but if the Ukraine conducts their own investigation instead of letting us lead in the investigation, what are the odds that the courts would find ample reason to bar the use of the evidence because they didn't follow US law in collecting the evidence? It wouldn't be all that surprising if the Ukraine committed their own investigation that it would never make it to trial here no matter what they found.

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

---

Man....there is enough bread crumbs to follow. Why carry the torch?

---

If you really don't want to see them go to trial, then why even bother?

---

We do want the democrats to go on trial, just not during an invalid impeachment trial.

Troutslime said:

---

Quote:

---

f, on the other hand, Trump orders the DOJ to investigate Biden, then that would indicate an "abuse of power".

---

Nope. No one is above the law.

---

The point is that the DOJ needs to be able to make their own decisions as far as investigations and prosecutions without being directed by the President no matter which President it is.

Troutslime said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

---

Man....there is enough bread crumbs to follow. Why carry the torch?

---

If you really don't want to see them go to trial, then why even bother?

---

We do want the democrats to go on trial, just not during an invalid impeachment trial.

---

That is far more likely to happen as a result of a DOJ investigation than an investigation centered in the Ukraine.

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Bingo. If the DOJ were to investigate them, can you imagine the outcry by the MSM and liberals? They would be pointing to Trump and accusing him of "abuse of power". Come on dude...

---

Not if the DOJ is doing the investigation on their own because they have a clearly articulated suspicion or evidence of criminal activity, then they wouldn't have any basis in fact to accuse Trump of "abuse of power".

If, on the other hand, Trump orders the DOJ to investigate Biden, then that would indicate an "abuse of power".

The best thing Trump can do is to completely stay out of who is investigated and who isn't and leave the DOJ to do their job. If he did that, he would be much the better President as well.

---

Ordering the DOJ to break their rules to investigate Biden would be an "abuse of power". But, merely ordering them to assess the evidence is hardly an abuse of power. He has a constitutional duty to oversee the department of justice.


On the whole, we all agree the President shouldn't get too caught up in the DOJ because they should be as non-political as possible. But if there is a big enough case, he should be involved to make sure things are done correctly (Unlike Obama's disastrous handling of the MYE and Crossfire Hurricane)

eric76 said:

---

Troutslime said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

---

Man....there is enough bread crumbs to follow. Why carry the torch?

---

If you really don't want to see them go to trial, then why even bother?

---

We do want the democrats to go on trial, just not during an invalid impeachment trial.

---

That is far more likely to happen as a result of a DOJ investigation than an investigation centered in the Ukraine.

---

A DOJ led investigation would look politically motivated. Letting a third party collect the facts for DOJ prosecution is the best course of action.

BQ78 said:

---

Wait! what! I thought Trump was an eminent threat to national security how can they just sit on it?

---

Depends on what the meaning of "imminent" is.

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

Troutslime said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

---

Man....there is enough bread crumbs to follow. Why carry the torch?

---

If you really don't want to see them go to trial, then why even bother?

---

We do want the democrats to go on trial, just not during an invalid impeachment trial.

---

That is far more likely to happen as a result of a DOJ investigation than an investigation centered in the Ukraine.

---

A DOJ led investigation would look politically motivated. Letting a third party collect the facts for DOJ prosecution is the best course of action.

---

Then the Attorney General should nominate a Special Prosecutor.

Here's a question for everyone:

When was the last time that a US politician or an immediate member of his family were ever investigated by a foreign government and that investigation led to a trial, either there or here?

Has it ever happened?

eric76 said:

---

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -

---

Only to embarrass them? Dude stop it already. Biden was on the take as well as his son. What they did was break the law. You can call it "favors" as some liberals have but what they did was not only wrong but illegal.

---

So if they are investigated and anything is found to substantiate your claim, they are going to fly over and stand trial?

Yeah, sure.

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

If you want to see them held responsible for whatever they did, it is never going to happen as a result of the Ukraine holding their own investigation, but it could happen if the DOJ investigates them here.

Don't forget that the US exerts jurisdiction over many things that happen overseas. It is illegal under Federal law to travel to another country in order to perform a number of different illegal acts. See the International Travel Act of 1961.

---

And risk politicizing the DOJ & FBI? (see Russia collusion conspiracy theory)

Much better for the country to let Ukraine find the facts, then take those facts to court here in the United States. In addition, this tests how serious the new administration really is about "fighting corruption".

Win-Win

Edit: Also see how the trial for the Russian hackers has done. Because the prep work to align the DOJ and Russian Justice department was not done. None of their lawbreakers will stand trial.

Only good way to do this is to go at the problem together!

---

I don't know about this, but if the Ukraine conducts their own investigation instead of letting us lead in the investigation, what are the odds that the courts would find ample reason to bar the use of the evidence because they didn't follow US law in collecting the evidence? It wouldn't be all that surprising if the Ukraine committed their own investigation that it would never make it to trial here no matter what they found.

---

You just recollect the evidence using US law... There is a whole treaty covering the sharing of information between Ukraine and the United States. And because Ukraine did it first, our DOJ doesn't have to fumble around like idiots, and they wouldn't be politically targeting anyone.

eric76 said:

---

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

Troutslime said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

---

Man....there is enough bread crumbs to follow. Why carry the torch?

---

If you really don't want to see them go to trial, then why even bother?

---

We do want the democrats to go on trial, just not during an invalid impeachment trial.

---

That is far more likely to happen as a result of a DOJ investigation than an investigation centered in the Ukraine.

---

A DOJ led investigation would look politically motivated. Letting a third party collect the facts for DOJ prosecution is the best course of action.

---

Then the Attorney General should nominate a Special Prosecutor.

---

That isn't the point of the Special Prosecutor. The AG has no conflict of interest between himself and Hunter Biden/Burisma.

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

hbtheduce said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Quote:

---

only reason why anyone would seek an investigation into Biden and son in the Ukraine is only to try to embarrass them -

---

Only to embarrass them? Dude stop it already. Biden was on the take as well as his son. What they did was break the law. You can call it "favors" as some liberals have but what they did was not only wrong but illegal.

---

So if they are investigated and anything is found to substantiate your claim, they are going to fly over and stand trial?

Yeah, sure.

On the other hand, if we investigate them for violations of US law and they are found to have broken US law, we can put them on trial here. And we can use the treaty with the Ukraine to ask for their assistance in doing some of the investigation over there.

If you want to see them held responsible for whatever they did, it is never going to happen as a result of the Ukraine holding their own investigation, but it could happen if the DOJ investigates them here.

Don't forget that the US exerts jurisdiction over many things that happen overseas. It is illegal under Federal law to travel to another country in order to perform a number of different illegal acts. See the International Travel Act of 1961.

---

And risk politicizing the DOJ & FBI? (see Russia collusion conspiracy theory)

Much better for the country to let Ukraine find the facts, then take those facts to court here in the United States. In addition, this tests how serious the new administration really is about "fighting corruption".

Win-Win

Edit: Also see how the trial for the Russian hackers has done. Because the prep work to align the DOJ and Russian Justice department was not done. None of their lawbreakers will stand trial.

Only good way to do this is to go at the problem together!

---

I don't know about this, but if the Ukraine conducts their own investigation instead of letting us lead in the investigation, what are the odds that the courts would find ample reason to bar the use of the evidence because they didn't follow US law in collecting the evidence? It wouldn't be all that surprising if the Ukraine committed their own investigation that it would never make it to trial here no matter what they found.

---

You just recollect the evidence using US law... There is a whole treaty covering the sharing of information between Ukraine and the United States. And because Ukraine did it first, our DOJ doesn't have to fumble around like idiots, and they wouldn't be politically targeting anyone.

---

Yes, there is a treaty.

It permits the US to request help from the Ukraine to deal with issues in the Ukraine in connection with an investigation in this country, and vice versa. In such a case, our lawyers who know US law would undoubtedly be careful to make sure that the part of the investigation in the Ukraine did not overstep any bounds that might result in evidence being thrown out by a US court. The Ukraine's part of the investigation would be to help us.

If the Ukrainian government is as corrupt as is commonly alleged, what happens if they do a full investigation and find nothing, perhaps because of that corruption. Biden and son would be able to claim that the investigation was done and no wrongdoing was found. Even if we had evidence to the contrary, it would leave plenty of room for doubt in the minds of the jury. Even knowing them to be corrupt, it would be hard to get around that.