Gonna be lots of outrage when the oig report whitewashes all this activity. Then what to do?

Proc92 said:

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Gonna be lots of outrage when the oig report whitewashes all this activity. Then what to do?

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That would take some mental gymnastics that even Nadia Comaneci would have never attempted. Consider where the leak of the Strzok/Page text messages originated. Consider the sheer number of career DOJ/FBI upper echelon bureaucrats have been fired, demoted or fled altogether.

https://www.themarketswork.com/2018/04/05/the-uncovering-mike-rogers-investigation-section-702-fisa-abuse-the-fbi/

Quote:

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...Consider what is being said by the Court. "Systems through which queries are conducted of upstream data that do not interface with NSA's audit system." Outside query systems. The NSA was unable to ascertain all the various avenues by which raw FISA data was accessed....


Private contractors, employed by the FBI, were given full access to raw FISA data. FISA data that, once in their possession, could not be traced....

The government was unable to determine how many times non-FBI personnel had full access to raw FISA data....

These contractors were "not directly supervised by or otherwise under the direction and control of" presumably anyone....

The FBI systematically enabled outside contractors to access raw FISA data - using the FBI's systems as access points - across multiple Agencies. The FBI intentionally hid the implementation of this practice - and the practice itself - from the FISA Court until it was discovered in March 2016....

The FBI was not only ignoring minimization procedures, they were ignoring the FISA Court....

---

This is a very long read, maybe 30 minutes to comprehend it to some degree. It's a very detailed analysis of the 99 page report from the FISA Court in conjunction with other related activities. No question that the Obama admin was widely spying on Americans for a long time through the FBI (main culprit) and to some extent the CIA. They were performing unfettered upstream queries via contractors with no supervision and no control over the materials extracted, and most importantly, there were avenues to conduct these queries that fell outside the realm of NSA oversight/control/access. It's mind boggling...and it's only scratching the surface I fear.

This Jeff Carlson is a hell of an investigative reporter.

I just don't see anything earth shattering coming from some lone inspector that nobody really heard of two years ago. The people being talked about in these last few posts are deeply connected and protected by scores of deeply imbedded string pullers and deep staters going all the way to the Clintons. They have gotten this far for a reason and I think it is hopeful at best to think that it will all come crashing down. The media simply won't play along with any storyline that paints the Democrat party as inherently corrupt or that treason against president trump was perpetrated by a cabal in Washington. The only way that gets any traction is 24/7 news coverage, that simply won't happen.

Proc92 said:

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I just don't see anything earth shattering coming from some lone inspector that nobody really heard of two years ago. The people being talked about in these last few posts are deeply connected and protected by scores of deeply imbedded string pullers and deep staters going all the way to the Clintons. They have gotten this far for a reason and I think it is hopeful at best to think that it will all come crashing down. The media simply won't play along with any storyline that paints the Democrat party as inherently corrupt or that treason against president trump was perpetrated by a cabal in Washington. The only way that gets any traction is 24/7 news coverage, that simply won't happen.

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You might want to reconsider that. Read this.

What convictions resulted from his investigation into holder and fast and furious?

aggiehawg said:

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Proc92 said:

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I just don't see anything earth shattering coming from some lone inspector that nobody really heard of two years ago. The people being talked about in these last few posts are deeply connected and protected by scores of deeply imbedded string pullers and deep staters going all the way to the Clintons. They have gotten this far for a reason and I think it is hopeful at best to think that it will all come crashing down. The media simply won't play along with any storyline that paints the Democrat party as inherently corrupt or that treason against president trump was perpetrated by a cabal in Washington. The only way that gets any traction is 24/7 news coverage, that simply won't happen.

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You might want to reconsider that. Read this.

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Written by the Jeff Carlson chap again. Says he is a CFA = Chartered Financial Analyst.

Re fast and furious oig investigation:

While the OIG report found no evidence that higher officials at the Justice Department in Washington had authorized or approved of the tactics used in the Fast and Furious investigations, it did fault 14 lower officials for related failures, including failures to take note of "red flags" uncovered by the investigation, as well as failures to follow up on information produced through Operation Fast and Furious and its predecessor, Operation Wide Receiver.[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-GunsInquiryNYT-121][121][/url][url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-cbs120512-123][123][/url] The report also noted ATF agents' apparent frustrations over legal obstacles from the Phoenix Attorney's Office to prosecuting suspected "straw-buyers," while also criticizing the agents' failure to quickly intervene and interdict weapons obtained by low-level suspects in the case.[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-GunsInquiryNYT-121][121][/url] The 14 Justice Department employees were referred for possible internal discipline. The Justice Department's Criminal Division head Lanny Breuer, an Obama administration presidential appointee, was cited for not alerting his bosses in 2010 to the flaws of Operation Wide Receiver.[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-aljaz-124][124][/url] Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein, who was responsible for authorizing a portion of the wiretap applications in Operation Fast and Furious and faulted in the report for not identifying the gunwalking tactics, resigned on the day of the report.[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-125][125][/url]

On December 4, 2012, the ATF Professional Review Board delivered its recommendations to high-level ATF managers, who will decide whether to accept them. The recommendations included firing William McMahon, ATF Deputy Assistant Director; Mark Chait, ATF Assistant Director for Field Operations; William Newell, Phoenix ATF Special Agent in Charge; and George Gillett, Newell's second in command. Two additional ATF employees,
Phoenix supervisor David Voth and lead agent Hope McAllister, received recommendations for demotion and disciplinary transfer to another ATF post, respectively.[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-126][126][/url][url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-127][127][/url] It was reported the next day that McMahon had been fired. It was also announced that Gary Grindler, Eric Holder's chief of staff who was faulted in the OIG report, would be leaving the Justice Department.[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-cbs120512-123][123][/url]Later that month, the family of Brian Terry sued seven government officials and a gun shop involved in Operation Fast and Furious for negligence and wrongful death.[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-128][128][/url]


That is about how this current oig investigation will turn out. A few rogue doj and fbi folks will take the fall but that's where it will die. And there will be no coverage demanding more senior heads, unlike watergate coverage.

You didn't read the article. On January 12, 2017, Horowitz was granted more authority to acquire documents under a new law.

aggiehawg said:

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You might want to reconsider that. Read this.

Quote:

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Thus far, all I've discovered regarding IG Horowitz appears to indicate he's a man of integrity, possessed with a useful and persistent determination.

Exactly the type of person one would want for an investigation of this magnitude.

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Thanks. Good read. And also exactly who should replace Sessions, reassign Rosenstein, and then assume immediate SC oversight.

I read that. Not sure why you expect a different outcome in a Washington based investigation of their own than what has happened for the past 30 years.

Proc92 said:

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I read that. Not sure why you expect a different outcome in a Washington based investigation of their own than what has happened for the past 30 years.

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Horowitz.

Let's hope so.

Would you bet the house on it?

Proc92 said:

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Gonna be lots of outrage when the oig report whitewashes all this activity. Then what to do?

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Nice troll

I'd grade it a B.

Proc92 said:

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Let's hope so.

Would you bet the house on it?

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No, but I'll make a friendly $1,000 wager if someone will hold both bets in escrow. ;-)

Hmmm.

Troll?

Doesn't really matter what I think or you think. You might be right.

The American people believed Trump's message about draining the swamp. The stupid oss swamp creatures keep doing the same thing and think they are going to get different results. If I was the dems, I would shut the impeachment talk down, shut Mieller down, send Comey to jail, send Stormy to a remote island with Bill C., send Hilary to dry out, and send Obama to Cuba.

Mueller is a disgrace to the legal profession. Rosenstein doesn't understand he is not politically astute. To call Comey a liar may be a compliment because he is much worse. The dems don't have the market on stupidity totally to themselves, but they are over bought right now.

The voters aren't stupid. They like jobs. They like paying less taxes. They like what is happening in North Korea, the Middle East, they like a POTUS who doesn't take krap off people. Trump made an issue out of the swamp. The dems have tried to make Trump an issue when he is giving the voters what they want. Just incredibly stupid.

Until the dems start using another strategy, they may well cause the voters to keep Trump until 2024. Just think about all the federal judges he can appoint. Comey and Mueller are toast.

Proc92 said:

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Let's hope so.

Would you bet the house on it?

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No. But I would bet $20,000 on it.

Huber is the prosecutor not Horowitz, Horowitz is just an investigator. That's why the gave him the title of Investigator General, and they gave Huber the title if US Prosecutor.

Really need to pay a little closer attention

Not troll. Not even a comment against what the facts are as they slowly are coming out. Just a healthy skeptic on DC doing the right thing and applying the law to their own.

Proc92 said:

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I read that. Not sure why you expect a different outcome in a Washington based investigation of their own than what has happened for the past 30 years.

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You said he was a "lone inspector." That is incorrect. He has a massive staff and budget. He's currently the head of the Inspector Generals program for sharing info across their respective agencies. Inspector Generals normally stay in the own lanes restricting themselves to matters in their own agency. But there are procedures for cross platforming information. Horowitz is currently the head of that as well.

He is uniquely positioned to reach into other agencies and glean information that would otherwise be unavailable to him.

drcrinum said:

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https://www.themarketswork.com/2018/04/05/the-uncovering-mike-rogers-investigation-section-702-fisa-abuse-the-fbi/

Quote:

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...Consider what is being said by the Court. "Systems through which queries are conducted of upstream data that do not interface with NSA's audit system." Outside query systems. The NSA was unable to ascertain all the various avenues by which raw FISA data was accessed....


Private contractors, employed by the FBI, were given full access to raw FISA data. FISA data that, once in their possession, could not be traced....

The government was unable to determine how many times non-FBI personnel had full access to raw FISA data....

These contractors were "not directly supervised by or otherwise under the direction and control of" presumably anyone....

The FBI systematically enabled outside contractors to access raw FISA data - using the FBI's systems as access points - across multiple Agencies. The FBI intentionally hid the implementation of this practice - and the practice itself - from the FISA Court until it was discovered in March 2016....

The FBI was not only ignoring minimization procedures, they were ignoring the FISA Court....

---

This is a very long read, maybe 30 minutes to comprehend it to some degree. It's a very detailed analysis of the 99 page report from the FISA Court in conjunction with other related activities. No question that the Obama admin was widely spying on Americans for a long time through the FBI (main culprit) and to some extent the CIA. They were performing unfettered upstream queries via contractors with no supervision and no control over the materials extracted, and most importantly, there were avenues to conduct these queries that fell outside the realm of NSA oversight/control/access. It's mind boggling...and it's only scratching the surface I fear.

This Jeff Carlson is a hell of an investigative reporter.

---

I swear, Obama did his very best to turn America into a third world banana republic.

And most of his voters STILL believe he was not just a good President but a great one.

Quote:

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What bugs me about this agent being Stefan Halper is that (a) he's 73 and thus no longer a field agent;(b) his identity and past are widely known and public knowledge; (c) meaning if he was in any real danger, pull him in from the cold; and finally (d) if the Russians wanted him dead he'd be six feet under already.

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Why would the Russians want him dead? I think the Russians would want him alive if he is the original source of this Russian collusion plot. Trace it back to him and the Russians are off the hook.

I have thought on this, Halper is a Bush guy, The Bushes hate Trump, he totally trashed Jeb. Also the Bushes got very cozy with the Clintons. This would be a pure 'bi partisan swamp attack against Trump.

OPAG said:

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Quote:

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What bugs me about this agent being Stefan Halper is that (a) he's 73 and thus no longer a field agent;(b) his identity and past are widely known and public knowledge; (c) meaning if he was in any real danger, pull him in from the cold; and finally (d) if the Russians wanted him dead he'd be six feet under already.

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Why would the Russians want him dead? I think the Russians would want him alive if he is the original source of this Russian collusion plot. Trace it back to him and the Russians are off the hook.

I have thought on this, Halper is a Bush guy, The Bushes hate Trump, he totally trashed Jeb. Also the Bushes got very cozy with the Clintons. This would be a pure 'bi partisan swamp attack against Trump.

---

In context I'm pretty sure Hawg was referring to the DOJ's claim that the necessity of the redaction was loss of life, and endanger international relationships. Halper being the informant against Russia implies Russian might kill him if they knew his identity. However Halper isn't some clandestine deep cover guy, he's very public and if Russia wanted him dead he'd be six feet under already.

Just my take on it

Quote:

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I have thought on this, Halper is a Bush guy, The Bushes hate Trump, he totally trashed Jeb. Also the Bushes got very cozy with the Clintons. This would be a pure 'bi partisan swamp attack against Trump.

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Maybe. The one reason I'm skeptical is because of the McCain angle. There is no love lost between the Bushes and McCain.

I read someplace he has 450 attorneys working for him. There will be some young leagal eaglles who are gong to make a name for themselves.

CrazyDayDuck said:

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drcrinum said:

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https://www.themarketswork.com/2018/04/05/the-uncovering-mike-rogers-investigation-section-702-fisa-abuse-the-fbi/

Quote:

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...Consider what is being said by the Court. "Systems through which queries are conducted of upstream data that do not interface with NSA's audit system." Outside query systems. The NSA was unable to ascertain all the various avenues by which raw FISA data was accessed....


Private contractors, employed by the FBI, were given full access to raw FISA data. FISA data that, once in their possession, could not be traced....

The government was unable to determine how many times non-FBI personnel had full access to raw FISA data....

These contractors were "not directly supervised by or otherwise under the direction and control of" presumably anyone....

The FBI systematically enabled outside contractors to access raw FISA data - using the FBI's systems as access points - across multiple Agencies. The FBI intentionally hid the implementation of this practice - and the practice itself - from the FISA Court until it was discovered in March 2016....

The FBI was not only ignoring minimization procedures, they were ignoring the FISA Court....

---

This is a very long read, maybe 30 minutes to comprehend it to some degree. It's a very detailed analysis of the 99 page report from the FISA Court in conjunction with other related activities. No question that the Obama admin was widely spying on Americans for a long time through the FBI (main culprit) and to some extent the CIA. They were performing unfettered upstream queries via contractors with no supervision and no control over the materials extracted, and most importantly, there were avenues to conduct these queries that fell outside the realm of NSA oversight/control/access. It's mind boggling...and it's only scratching the surface I fear.

This Jeff Carlson is a hell of an investigative reporter.

---

I swear, Obama did his very best to turn America into a third world banana republic.

And most of his voters STILL believe he was not just a good President but a great one.

---

The other side of this is, who else for whatever reason might the former administration have used this tactic of surveillance? Perhaps prior to 2016?

They know when they got found out but how long had they really been doing it and against whom?

Given the level of involvement between contractors and different departments and government officials in the current case, it would seem that this practice appeared somewhat common place business as usual(as necessary).

Quote:

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In context I'm pretty sure Hawg was referring to the DOJ's claim that the necessity of the redaction was loss of life, and endanger international relationships. Halper being the informant against Russia implies Russian might kill him if they knew his identity. However Halper isn't some clandestine deep cover guy, he's very public and if Russia wanted him dead he'd be six feet under already.

Just my take on it

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Exactly my point. Thanks for the assist.

pacecar02 said:

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CrazyDayDuck said:

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drcrinum said:

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https://www.themarketswork.com/2018/04/05/the-uncovering-mike-rogers-investigation-section-702-fisa-abuse-the-fbi/

Quote:

---

...Consider what is being said by the Court. "Systems through which queries are conducted of upstream data that do not interface with NSA's audit system." Outside query systems. The NSA was unable to ascertain all the various avenues by which raw FISA data was accessed....


Private contractors, employed by the FBI, were given full access to raw FISA data. FISA data that, once in their possession, could not be traced....

The government was unable to determine how many times non-FBI personnel had full access to raw FISA data....

These contractors were "not directly supervised by or otherwise under the direction and control of" presumably anyone....

The FBI systematically enabled outside contractors to access raw FISA data - using the FBI's systems as access points - across multiple Agencies. The FBI intentionally hid the implementation of this practice - and the practice itself - from the FISA Court until it was discovered in March 2016....

The FBI was not only ignoring minimization procedures, they were ignoring the FISA Court....

---

This is a very long read, maybe 30 minutes to comprehend it to some degree. It's a very detailed analysis of the 99 page report from the FISA Court in conjunction with other related activities. No question that the Obama admin was widely spying on Americans for a long time through the FBI (main culprit) and to some extent the CIA. They were performing unfettered upstream queries via contractors with no supervision and no control over the materials extracted, and most importantly, there were avenues to conduct these queries that fell outside the realm of NSA oversight/control/access. It's mind boggling...and it's only scratching the surface I fear.

This Jeff Carlson is a hell of an investigative reporter.

---

I swear, Obama did his very best to turn America into a third world banana republic.

And most of his voters STILL believe he was not just a good President but a great one.

---

The other side of this is, who else for whatever reason might the former administration have used this tactic of surveillance? Perhaps prior to 2016?

They know when they got found out but how long had they really been doing it and against whom?

Given the level of involvement between contractors and different departments and government officials in the current case, it would seem that this practice appeared somewhat common place business as usual(as necessary).

---

True

We know Obama weaponized both the IRS and the DOJ. What we don't know is the extent to which he weaponized both.

The IRS targeting the TEA Party and the FBI spying on Trump (as well as covering up for Clinton deleting classified emails) may have been just the tip of the ice berg (albeit a big tip at that).

I always felt Obama was cut from the same cloth of Hugo Chavez. Both believed in crony capitalism, gun control and persecuting political opponents.

Kerry is still at it, he said to hell with the Logan Act.

Not ridiculous when you consider people expect heads to roll based on the current investigation. Unless you consider a success a great oig report that goes no further.

You cited that article to support the claim that the current oig is a different kind of cat. That article spent lots of time referring to holder and fast and furious ig investigation. My question is so what? It still died on the vine right afterwards because Washington never does the right thing to their own.

My point is that same result is just as likely now. You can hold out hope, but like gowdy's purported prosecutors brilliance, it never turns into holding anyone liable when it counts.

I admire your cynicism, and it's not unfounded

I hope you are wrong.

Here's to hoping you end up disappointed.