BernArnold said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Ags77 said:

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I have been to Vegas more than 50 times. I have stayed in many different hotels and gambled in many different casinos. I haven't stayed in Mand. Bay. I don't see how he got 16 guns through the lobby and upstairs using the elevator. Wouldnt that require a lot of trips and cause suspicions ?

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They said earlier he had 10 suitcases in his room. If the guns were broken down, it would be very easy to bring them in and given how many people are constantly going in and out of these hotels, very unlikely anyone would notice or pay it any mind.

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Especially over several days.

One suitcase at a time raises no suspicion and every 12 hours would be a different staff.

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None of that would raise suspicions at Mandalay. You don't go through the lobby and carts overloaded are the norms. I saw dudes rolling in kegs.

aTmAg said:

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Su-27 has a 48' wingspan and weighs 36,000 pounds. It didn't come close to killing 185 when it crashed into a crowd.

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Again, angle of impact and density of crowd are critical.

The density of the crowd is what makes for horrific results, no matter what the method of danger/damage is.

For instance, Mercedes - LeMans, it was only a long block and transmission that was ejected from Pierre's mercedes when it hit the wall going 125, but it killed 83 and wounded 180, and that's nowhere near the size of a loaded cessna.

for horrific video here is the link.



the packed house is what makes such a horrific result. now and then.

an interesting difference in culture is.... they continued the race. Of course accidents are much different than mass murder, but can you imagine continuing the race in america today?

bottom line, this is a strange crazy attack... but if he was a pilot, it certainly could have been worse. Hell a truck attack could have been worse, as demonstrated repeatedly recently.

bottom line, I am morbidly curious what turns up to be a psycho motive, and what weapons were used. It really sounded like a cheaply modded 7.62 to me...

But I only guess it matters for the political aftermath.

Seems like the media talking point, since they can't tie this guy to Trump or Republicans, is to focus on the fact that "machine guns are legal in the US" and scare everyone into thinking that a person can walk in and buy one like they can an airsoft gun.

NBC even said that since it is illegal to modify these guns to full auto, he had to have purchased them already full auto.

They completely leave out the facts as to what it actually takes and costs to buy an pre-1986 automatic weapon.

Ags77 said:

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I have been to Vegas more than 50 times. I have stayed in many different hotels and gambled in many different casinos. I haven't stayed in Mand. Bay. I don't see how he got 16 guns through the lobby and upstairs using the elevator. Wouldnt that require a lot of trips and cause suspicions ?

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No

To both lot of trips and suspicions. Especially if staggered over multiple days. Would not be hard in the least. During one travel trip I had 8 large pelican cases (Two of which could easily handle long guns and smallest was briefcase size), Two big suitcases, and an actual full desktop computer. And I did that in one night with two trips(used the luggage cart, they are there for a reason)

Enough space to do everything he did. And then some. Was not questioned once and even turned down help. I would have been surprised if they did question it. Not to mention a little mad if they did. None of their business.

annie88 said:

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azulAg said:

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Something must have set this guy off, but what ?

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Maybe Trump winning the presidency. I've been out of pocket all afternoon but early reports was that he was a ***** hat wearer and a Bernie supporter.

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For the sake of accuracy you should have mentioned that the "early reports" you refer to were from fringe websites only.

Rapier108 said:

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Seems like the media talking point, since they can't tie this guy to Trump or Republicans, is to focus on the fact that "machine guns are legal in the US" and scare everyone into thinking that a person can walk in and buy one like they can an airsoft gun.

NBC even said that since it is illegal to modify these guns to full auto, he had to have purchased them already full auto.

They completely leave out the facts as to what it actually takes and costs to buy an pre-1986 automatic weapon.

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Well, how much does it cost? A 64 year old real estate millionaire can afford anything he wants if he's going to die.

Further, to the point of cars, wow... maybe they had some good barriers but an 18 wheelers could have killed hundreds.

Not one bit. Take guns like an AR for example. You can easily take the gun apart at the upper and lower receivers and fit it into a relatively small space.

What if he had a golf bag. He could make multiple trips with a golf bag no more think twice.

Eliminatus said:

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Really enjoying the science and number crunching and google fu of everyone trying to see how this dude could have killed more people.

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Reminds me of the joke about the engineer being executed who troubleshoots the malfunctioning guillotine.

IDAGG said:

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annie88 said:

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azulAg said:

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Something must have set this guy off, but what ?

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Maybe Trump winning the presidency. I've been out of pocket all afternoon but early reports was that he was a ***** hat wearer and a Bernie supporter.

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For the sake of accuracy you should have mentioned that the "early reports" you refer to were from fringe websites only.

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What part of I've been out of pocket all afternoon did you not ****ing understand? I said earlier report seem to say that I didn't say it confirmed. Calm the **** down this ****er just killed a bunch of people were trying to figure out why. My post was originally answering someone who said I wonder why he could've done this.

I still don't understand why guns and why so many especially since he acted alone and had access to much more deadly means. And ultimately easier ways to take out a bunch of people.

Rapier108 said:

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Cops already said they were illegally modified so whether he did it himself, or paid someone to do it, is irrelevant. They weren't legal to own automatic weapons.

He likely would not have wanted to scrutiny of the background check in order to buy them legally.

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You brought it up, not me. If you're talking about automatic guns pre 1986 being prohibitively expensive, I'm asking how much. Also, I would say it doesn't matter what year a gun was made - I'm pro guns, but if they are illegal now it doesn't matter to me what year it was manufactured.

Agnzona said:

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I still don't understand why guns and why so many especially since he acted alone and had access to much more deadly means. And ultimately easier ways to take out a bunch of people.

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It's possible he collected most of the guns before he went insane.

I used to work with a guy who had more guns than the US Army including at least a dozen automatic weapons (all legally purchased) and it was just what he collected. He had a custom walk in safe in his house for them. The NFA guns he considered an investment.

As for the shooter, I would not be surprised that he didn't plan to stay up there for a long time but something went wrong. Heck, he may have just lost track of time and then realized he was trapped. With the explosives he had in his car, he might have planned to detonate them as cover for his escape, and then go elsewhere to cause more mayhem.

He had ammonium nitrate in his vehicle; just needed two other other major ingredients. He could have potentially leveled the entire block with his income, patience and logistics.

aTmAg said:

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Su-27 has a 48' wingspan and weighs 36,000 pounds. It didn't come close to killing 185 when it crashed into a crowd.

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This is the most macabre side argument on this thread.

Eliminatus said:

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Really enjoying the science and number crunching and google fu of everyone trying to see how this dude could have killed more people.

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I think it's more us trying to understand why he picked the method he picked.

Why would he go to such great lengths to shoot from a distance if he wanted to inflict mass casualties when he had many more options with his income.

Premium said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Cops already said they were illegally modified so whether he did it himself, or paid someone to do it, is irrelevant. They weren't legal to own automatic weapons.

He likely would not have wanted to scrutiny of the background check in order to buy them legally.

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You brought it up, not me. If you're talking about automatic guns pre 1986 being prohibitively expensive, I'm asking how much. Also, I would say it doesn't matter what year a gun was made - I'm pro guns, but if they are illegal now it doesn't matter to me what year it was manufactured.

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It does matter. Pre-1986 can still be sold to someone who goes through the necessary background checks and pays the for tax stamp. Anything made after 1986 cannot be sold to civilians and only sold by dealers who are licensed to handle them, and are sold only to approved entities such as law enforcement.

As for cost, low end pre-1986 automatic weapon would be 10-15K with some rare, high quality ones into the six figures.

Thx

ballchain said:

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Quote:

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So, a concert with 23,000 people packed in at 3 people / 10 sf(this could be higher at a concert):

Beechcraft Baron coming in low, not perpendicular :

~4000 lbs @ 230 mph
37' wingspan

takes out on average the first 15' of people it hits

37'x15'= 555 sf = 185 people + collateral damage from debris.

This doesn't even assume fuel and the impending conflagration. I think these are conservative numbers because you could get a bigger twin engine plane especially if you have money like this guys supposedly did. In your examples, I would assume the pilot was trying to avoid casualties also, not inflict them. I'm no aviation expert but I understand the basics of physics. I don't think this is far fetched.

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1. It's the Vegas strip. Lots of tall buildings around there that would make a proper glide angle difficult to achieve.
2. If the pilot dives last minute to avoid point 1, he/she would plow in, and damage would be a divot in the ground.
3. Most of those aircraft are made out of very light aluminum. After the initial impact from the engines, the light aluminum beer can body is one giant crumple zone. Not too devastating.
4. Taking the above into account, trying to pinpoint an exact spot on the ground, while mentally calculating best angle to cause the most damage, isn't a very easy task. This isn't flying into a vertical structure, you would be trying to sweep a bunch of 5'-6' humans at ground level off of their feet, at 230mph, that's a tall order.

The Cessna 150/152 that flew into the White House didn't seem to do much damage. Neither did that dude in Austin in another Cessna (might have even been a 172), post 9/11 that crashed into the IRS building. I think it only broke a window and damaged some furniture.

Not saying it's impossible, but highly unlikely, as you wouldn't have the opportunity to practice that run in the Class Bravo surrounding Las Vegas, and there's probably only one chance to even try it, as you've still got to get up and go around - while avoiding every other obstacle - if you weren't dead on the first run.


ETA: Also, if it's a larger twin, it's probably in Turboprop territory, meaning Jet A (aka slow burn). So not a lot of collateral that way.

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https://www.google.com/maps/place/Las+Vegas+Strip,+NV/@36.0944076,-115.1722872,977m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c8c4383428d4eb:0x43e2195d0c26834c!8m2!3d36.1147065!4d-115.1728484

That's the location. It's effectively adjacent to McCarrin Airport. He could have flown in straight over the airport without issue.

Rapier108 said:

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Cops already said they were illegally modified so whether he did it himself, or paid someone to do it, is irrelevant. They weren't legal to own automatic weapons.

He likely would not have wanted to scrutiny of the background check in order to buy them legally.

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My neighbor has sevetal full auto BARs, Thompsons, and others; he also has class III license, shop and is a dealer.

So no, full auto's are not illegal.

AG 2000' said:

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https://www.google.com/maps/place/Las+Vegas+Strip,+NV/@36.0944076,-115.1722872,977m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c8c4383428d4eb:0x43e2195d0c26834c!8m2!3d36.1147065!4d-115.1728484

That's the location. It's effectively adjacent to McCarrin Airport. He could have flown in straight over the airport without issue.

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I was just about to point this out. No tall objects close to the airport.

annie88 said:

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IDAGG said:

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annie88 said:

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azulAg said:

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Something must have set this guy off, but what ?

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Maybe Trump winning the presidency. I've been out of pocket all afternoon but early reports was that he was a ***** hat wearer and a Bernie supporter.

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For the sake of accuracy you should have mentioned that the "early reports" you refer to were from fringe websites only.

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What part of I've been out of pocket all afternoon did you not ****ing understand? I said earlier report seem to say that I didn't say it confirmed. Calm the **** down this ****er just killed a bunch of people were trying to figure out why. My post was originally answering someone who said I wonder why he could've done this.

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What part of you forgot to mention that the "early info "only came from sketchy sites do you not understand? That is not an "early report" That is a wild ass speculation of a couple of tin foil sites.

Quote:

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but early reports was that he was a ***** hat wearer and a Bernie supporter.

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oneeyedag said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Cops already said they were illegally modified so whether he did it himself, or paid someone to do it, is irrelevant. They weren't legal to own automatic weapons.

He likely would not have wanted to scrutiny of the background check in order to buy them legally.

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My neighbor has sevetal full auto BARs, Thompsons, and others; he also has class III license, shop and is a dealer.

So no, full auto's are not illegal.

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I know, said that a few posts up, as long as they're made before 1986.

And I'm jealous, I would love a BAR and Thompson. I have most of the other common small arms the US used in WWII, but non of the automatic ones.

BigHitterDaLama said:

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His voter registration info was posted earlier. Democrat, registered in Palm Beach Couty, Florida in 4/11/1984.

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Link?

It's important

oneeyedag said:

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He had ammonium nitrate in his vehicle; just needed two other other major ingredients. He could have potentially leveled the entire block with his income, patience and logistics.

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Yeah, my thoughts exactly. If for whatever reason the gun attack wasn't feasible, did he have a back-up plan for a bombing somewhere else? Were the other ingredients pre-positioned?

This guy had assassin level tactics and logistics, yet still had personal skills to not arouse suspicions from those around him most often.

daggertx said:

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BigHitterDaLama said:

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His voter registration info was posted earlier. Democrat, registered in Palm Beach Couty, Florida in 4/11/1984.

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Link?

It's important

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It's false.

We got our house, he came over after he heard me shooting in back yard; and came bearing gifts, with a Thompson and an UZI.

He has too many toys to list.

So, what do we know about girlfriend?