Don't you have millions of demigods? That is complicated.

Don't you have millions of demigods? That is complicated.
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Finally a voice of reason!

Kline, you're missing the most basic part of the problem of evil. First, we assume that God is omnipotent and omniscient (something I don't think you'd fight). They, you acknowledge the existence of evil. Those two things make God responsible for evil, whether you think it's active or passive.

Consider holding a glass in the air and then letting go. When it hits the floor, one could say "I didn't break it, I allowed it to break." The fact that gravity (the devil, in this case) was the propelling force does not mean that you didn't break the glass.

As you said, you think God permits the devil to exist. If he has the power to change it but does not, he is responsible for evil.

It's an incredibly challenging theological problem.

How about this:

In order for God to truly allow us to have free will, he has to allow evil to exist. If we could not choose to do evil, we would not truly have free will.

??

Interesting, p.g., do you believe in a personal Satan, the one who is a fallen angel and opposed to God's plans?

Kline, ridicule is a poor substitute for argument. Try using some scriptures to refute a point; they will probably hold more water than simply a diatribe.

What about the scriptures about Jesus having a dialogue with Satan? What about the "roaring lion" section?

This is getting interesting.



[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 4/11/2007 4:09p).]

Ftworthhorn,

It is not perplexing. Lucifer had freewill and rebelled before man arrived. God has always wanted freewill worship. If there was no devil, there would be no other alternatives and everyone would have to drive a ford because ford would be the only choice. God is not evil. It is simple and not complex. God is greater than the devil and gives us power over the devil(s). So even the fact that there is a devil does not mean that we are or should be evil and it certainly does not mean that God is evil.


As far as what God can or cannot do, there is only one thing that God cannot do and that is to break his Word. There are spiritual boundaries if you will and the devil has to conform to them for now until the final judgment when he will cease to exist. The Devil's sin is like many that post on this board. They want to be God. They want to make the rules and if anyone disagrees they get angry.

Kline, how about a bit of scriptual support; it has a tendency to carry a bit more weight than just a couple paragraphs of personal opinion.

quote:

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The Devil's sin is like many that post on this board. They want to be God. They want to make the rules and if anyone disagrees they get angry.

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A scripture reference for which point(s)?

Reread your previous posts. Do I really need to tell you.

If so, forget it, you might not......

TLC- Interesting, p.g., do you believe in a personal Satan, the one who is a fallen angel and opposed to God's plans?
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I do believe in this image of Satan but use the term Devil as the origin of the word Satan does not convey the same meaning (see my earlier post).
I also think our image of evil and Satan, etc. has been influenced by Milton and Dante more than we realize.

I wonder why Kline is unable to quote Scripture.
Did he leave his illustrated KJV in the preschool bathroom?

I have studied P.L., and agree that Milton has influenced many images, but most people don't, at least consciously, get their doctrine from Milton.

We need to further dialogue about this topic. It's not only interesting; it's important.

Seriously The Lone Stranger,

I posted thoughts from a lot of years of study and I can most definitely find verses except for my educated opinion as to what God can or cannot do. If you have any specific assertions from the first paragarph I will take the time to look them up and give you the sriptural references but I do not want to look up things that you agree with already. It takes time and I have to stay ahead of graddo. He is stalking me!



[This message has been edited by Kline7 (edited 4/11/2007 4:40p).]

That is a reasonable request. I will skim the post and request the support. That is, if I remember to do it.

The old brain is not really what is used to be.

And thank God, like Woody Allen once said, "thank God, the brain is the first organ to go."

The devil's children are those that do his bidding. The children of God are those that obey Him.

This isn't complicated, folks...

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You do know that the two fingered salute you guys like to wave around at football games is the sign of the devil in Mexico, don't you?


fahraint
posted 7:58a, 04/11/07



Yes, but we're in Texas!

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So, fahraint - You're canoeing down the middle of the Rio Grande, and see some TSips on the north side. What sign would you give them?

I'd give 'em the "come on down and help me finish off this canoe full of Shiner Bock, since I am only allowed to have a certain finite amount" sign...

Fair enough. You sound like a regular guy. I thought you were a doctor...

I am a regular guy doctor.....I like canoes, fishing, football, history, beer, wine, (in moderation of course).....

I also like to help the helpless, assist the weak, and give to the poor

texasag73,

quote:

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The devil's children are those that do his bidding. The children of God are those that obey Him.

This isn't complicated, folks...

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Seed is the only thing that makes children. We are children of God because we have his seed. Likewise, the true children of the devil would have to have his seed. It would be spiritual in nature if it exist and it would preclude them from receiving the True God's seed.

Kline - Respectfully disagree.

Mark 3:33: And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"

34: And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

35: Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."




1 John 3:8: He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Texasags73,

quote:

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Kline - Respectfully disagree.

Mark 3:33: And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"

34: And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

35: Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."




1 John 3:8: He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

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Jesus, was either foretelling in Mark 3 or he was using it figuratively.

I John 3 actually is referring to "seed." I will get back later to day and point out somethings in I John.

Texasag73,

The bible is both figurative and literal. When God tells us in Ephesians 4:28 to "steal no more" that is a literal verse. It means exactly what it says. It doesn't need explanation or reserach. However, when God says, "I will bear my arm," it is figurative because God is spirit and has no shape or comliness. Figures of speech are used in the bible just like we use them in todays language, to add emphasis. Just like we would say, "it hasn't rained for a month and the ground is thirsty." Again, a figure of speech to add emphasis to how dry the ground is. E.W. Bullinger's Figures of Speech is a good source.

Again, we can not be God's children without his seed. Jesus Christ had God's seed and old testament believer's were God's children by adoption. This could be the reference or as I said before, Jesus could have been foretelling of the new birth and the incorruptible seed.

Now to I John 3 you quoted I John 3:8 which is a great verse. It tells us that we cannot destroy the devil but we can destroy his works.

However, if you look at the very next verse, I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This verse specifically refers to seed and it has a figurative usage in it. It says that whosoever is born God (implying seed) doth not commit sin. We know that is figurative at best because we know from the many clear verses on the subject that we can commit sin after we are born again. So what is it referring to? Seed! What sin can we not commit once we have God's seed? We cannot receive seed from the devil. That is the sin as a born again believer that we cannot commit and that is the unforgiveable sin. This verse is telling us that it can only happen if they are not born again and we cannot receive the devil's seed if we are born again. However, once a man or woman receives the devil's seed, they cannot be born again and they cannot be redeemed, i.e. unforgiveable. I do not propose to completely understand how people receive the devils seed, but they do and their fruit is everywhere, disease, war, strife, famine, hatreds, etc., etc.

quote:

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The bible is both figurative and literal.

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Really? Who'da thunk it?

If the devil is going around incarnating himself, ala Rosemary's baby, then it's news to me. I don't even know if that's possible.

Texasag73,

Didn't mean to offend you. I have no way of knowing if you knew that the bible was both figurative and literal.

quote:

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If the devil is going around incarnating himself, ala Rosemary's baby, then it's news to me. I don't even know if that's possible.

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I don't see any evidence or any scripture that supports your Rosemary's baby scenario. The devil's seed has to be spiritual in nature just as the True God's seed is. Otherwise, hypothetically, the child of Rosemary, could decide to believe and get born again. The bible says that the child of the devil is an unforgiveable state.

Well I agree that there are numerous spiritual children of the devil running around today. Anton LeVey created the church of satan in SF back in the 1960's. There are many new agers running around channeling dead guys too. All of this crystal power/horoscope/ouija board/fortune telling stuff is also part of his doing. Sorcery, witchcraft, atheism, etc., are all a big part of his plan too. They all try to get you to put your faith in something else besides Jesus Christ. God help them all.

Well said!