still looking for those wheels and elephants?

As you know, the wheels have been found and you can find an elephant's skeleton in the museum in South America. Also a whale that was found some 10,000+ feet in the mountains. Yes, there was a flood.

south america, pretty impressive.

I will give you the name of the museum and the country in S.A. tomorrow as I am not much in the mood to look it up after the egg we laid in San Diego tonight.

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As you know, the wheels have been found

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No, they have not. Clay wheels on small toy animals do not count.

Do you know why they never invented real wheels? One reason is that they had no horses or draft animals. (The Book of Mormon claims they had both.)

According to Anthony Barbieri-Low:

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Why would societies as complex, aggressive, and skillful as those which arose in Mesoamerica, produce such toys yet choose not to exploit this technology in transportation or warfare? The answer lies in the fact that no suitable draught animals existed in the New World which could have pulled large vehicles. Neither equids nor bovids were present in the New World at this time, and available animals such as the llama or the dog simply could never provide adequate traction.

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There are also no remains of steel weapons and armor. If you somehow buy in to the ridiculous Mopologist argument that such artifacts all rusted away, you are still left with the fact that such items are also undepicted in new world art.

No, again and again, the Book of Mormon proves itself a fraud.

If I might suggest a purchase:

Oxford Encyclopedia of Mesoamerican Cultures

Read this scholarly work from start to finish. You will find no evidence of Book of Mormon cultures.

[This message has been edited by El Sid (edited 12/29/2006 8:29a).]

Cold Steel:

Here are two incontrovertible facts. Could you please respond to them in your own analysis?

Fact 1: The actual papyrus (pictured above) matches facsimile 1 but for the missing portions. The drawing from the papyrus is a common funerary scene, but the "missing" parts filled in by Joseph Smith are unknown in Egyptology. In other words Joseph Smith got it wrong when he attempted to complete the drawings. No competent (non-LDS) Egyptologist would say otherwise.

Fact 2: Facsimile 3 again represents a common Egyptian scene. I this case, the priest Horus is being led to the underworld. Joseph Smith's labels for this drawing are comical. It is not "Abraham" on the throne expounding on astrology. Even though there is a black skinned person on the drawing, he is no "slave." All the figures are misidentified. No competent (non-LDS) Egyptologist would say otherwise.

Now I will agree with you, to a point, "the facts are only apparent to Mormons." Not because as you try to protray, that Mormons are distorting the evidence, but simply because Mormons are the best equipted to evaluate the evidence and its relation to the Book of Mormon (as well as the Book of Abraham) as they are the only ones that have taken the time to seriously study what these two books claim.--Coldsteel

You are missing the point. The fact is that archaeologists know what it looks like when cultures collide or when cultures move to entire new areas. If there were any evidence of a lost tribe of Israel in Mesoamerica, or any of the other geographic areas in the New World pinpointed by Mormon's in the past, they would have to account for it and the BOM might come in. But again, you propose a completely foreign culture that comes to Mexico, with technology, animals, language, etc. that is completely foreign to the area, and they don't leave a trace of their original culture. The archaeology of contact is well studied all over the world and yet I don't think you can find any non-Mormon archaeologists who believe that there is even archaeological evidence of another culture here, let alone a lost tribe of Israel with all the specific predictions that entails. Again, after all the work that Mormon's put in over the past 100+ years on this, virtually nobody even thinks there is another foreign culture here, let alone the specific one that you think was clearly here.

Starting with the BOM, and trying to find data to fit it is NOT good science. It is incredible to me that anyone cannot see that.

the peoples of 'ancient' America give no evidence that they were of Hebrew ancestory, or the existence of the animals that were taken with these wondering nomads as the bom claims. however, the animals that were in fact here are never mentioned. it's also ridiculous to note that many stories from the old testament seem to have been copied into the bom (smith wasn't even original or accurate). the notorious smith interpretation of the papyri is also laughable if not completely fraudulent. how do you explain that?

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El Sid: Here are two incontrovertible facts. Could you please respond to them in your own analysis?

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Sorry I don't have time today to respond. Perhaps tomorrow. In the mean time, perhaps you can demonstrate that facsimilies 1 and 3 are "common funerary [Egyptian] scene[s]" in light of the fact that both Baer and Ritner (both non-LDS Egyptologist) say they are not "common".

Cold Steel

Flech, how much cultural impact do you think that 30 or so people coming into a society of hundreds of thousands is likely to have?

Cold Steel

and there is the excuse we've all been waiting for.... congratulations, rational discussion will now take leave in lieu of the "burning bosom" philosophy of proof.

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Variations of the scene shown on [Facsimile No. 3] are probably the single most common form of Egyptian funerary scene known -- the deceased being led into the presence of the Court of Osiris, god of the underworld. Eventually the major elements became standardized into chapter 125 of the Book of the Dead, and the particular version in the Joseph Smith papyri is from a later, simplified text. The deceased, wearing the traditional perfumed cone and lotus flower on his head, is led by Maat, goddess of justice (identified by the plume within the orb on her head) into the presence of Osiris. He is supported from behind by Anubis, guide of the dead, who has helped him complete his journey (and assisted him in the use of the spells that were contained in his funeral book). Osiris wears his double-plumed crown, holds the royal flail and crook across his chest, and sits before the ever present libation platform that is common in nearly all drawings containing major god-figures. It is topped by the customary stylized papyrus blossom. Behind him stands his wife Isis, identified by her solar disc and cow horn. The object in her hand is probably an ankh, symbol of life and resurrection.

http://www.irr.org/MIT/Books/BHOH/bhoh3.html

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One of the pioneers of Egyptology, M. Theodule Deveria, was one of the first to review the "facsimiles." He immediately recognized all three drawings as copies of rather common Egyptian funerary documents, of which he had examined hundreds.

In 1912, all three facsimiles were sent to 8 of the world's leading Egyptologists.

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The eight Egyptologists and Semitists who responded were unanimous in their scathing verdict: "Joseph Smith's interpretation of these cuts is a farrago of nonsense from beginning to end," came the report from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, which added that "five minutes study in an Egyptian gallery of any museum should be enough to convince any educated man of the clumsiness of the imposture;" ". . . difficult to deal seriously with Smith's impudent fraud," wrote another from Oxford, England. "Smith has turned the Goddess into a king and Osiris into Abraham." From Chicago, ". . . very clearly demonstrates that he (Joseph Smith) was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian Writing and civilization." And from London, ". . . the attempts to guess a meaning are too absurd to be noticed. It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations."

http://www.irr.org/MIT/Books/BHOH/bhoh1.html

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Klaus baer, who you mention, agrees. Dr. Baer described Facsimile 3:

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"Facsimile No. 3" shows a man (5), his hand raised in adoration and a cone of perfumed grease and a lotus flower on his head (ancient Egyptian festival attire), being introduced by Maat (4), the goddess of justice, and Anubis (6), the guide of the dead, into the presence of Osiris (1), enthroned as king of the Netherworld. Behind Osiris stands Isis (2), and in front of him is an offering-stand (3) with a jug and some flowers on it.

http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/abraham.htm

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Finally, Dr. Robert Ritner, associate professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago was commissioned to do a complete translation of the scroll Joseph Smith identified as a lost book of Abraham. He explains what he found:

http://www.bookofabraham.info/videos/The_Critical_Link.wmv

Watch the brief (5 min.) video linked directly above to hear from Dr. Ritner.


[This message has been edited by El Sid (edited 12/29/2006 1:46p).]

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Cold Steel: Flech, how much cultural impact do you think that 30 or so people coming into a society of hundreds of thousands is likely to have?

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According to the Book of Mormon, they evolved into a society of millions and the Christian religion which they brought with them dominated the area. So, how much cultural impact do YOU think they would have??

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jrod: and there is the excuse we've all been waiting for.... congratulations, rational discussion will now take leave in lieu of the "burning bosom" philosophy of proof.

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Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion? Somehow I doubt that.

Cold Steel

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El Sid: According to the Book of Mormon, they evolved into a society of millions and the Christian religion which they brought with them dominated the area. So, how much cultural impact do YOU think they would have??

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I suggest that you go back and reread the BofM a bit more carefully this time.

Cold Steel

do you have anything constructive to add to salvation through Christ - i doubt that also.

i hope you find the truth.

JROD -You have no idea!

so, why doesn't the LDS church dig on hill cumorah?

seeing how they are so confident about the supremecy of their existence, why don't they prove themselves.

where are your remains from a battle that occured a mere 1600 years ago?

where are the weapons?

where are you temples?

where are your hebrew descendents?

where is the evidence of your ancient civilizations descibed by other cultures?

why is there greek in the bom - being a reformed egyptian text?

why is there silk in the mormon world?

where are your smelts?

where are your wheels - really?

where is the evidence of Christianity in Mesoamerica?

where is your DNA?

why are stories repeated in the bom, that are seen in the old testament?

if the bom is perfect, as smith claimed, why is it full of errors?

time to call a spade, a spade. look at the facts with confidence and ask God for knowledge that leads you to the truth.




[This message has been edited by jrodwh00p (edited 12/30/2006 1:34a).]

JROD -Wow, these are questions that have never been asked before or any answers given...Right? When did you start reading on this board? I ask this because I do not care to re-invent the wheel. Answer to these questions have been given and I welcome an excuse to bring them back up.

still waiting on all those fulfilled prophesies ibmag..... faith built on lies is not faith - its foolishness.

"He that trusts in his own heart is a fool." Prov 28:26

the mormon savior has no resemblence of the Son of God taught in OT and NT scripture. i will thus consider myself ignorant and live in the grace and freedom of Christ.

again, my question - WHY IS CHRIST NOT ENOUGH?
4th time i've asked.

i imagine most question will go unanswered, and i am sorry if i am new to this board, but the facts still stand. all religion aside the claims of the lds and its history is enough to be laughed at, and nothing more than 19th century religious fiction.


[This message has been edited by jrodwh00p (edited 12/29/2006 6:40p).]

JROD -I answered your question but evidently you have not read it. Your biggest problem is that the "Christ" that you profess to believe in does not and has never existed. The Niceene Creed is a false doctrine put together by a pagan emperor and corrupt priests. But don't let that give you pause for thought or slow you down.

IBMAGG

Notice that the meaty questions raised in this thread have gone unanswered (although I did answer Cold Steel's question).

Sid, they have been answered over and over. You just didn't like the answers.

ibmagg - let me get this straight - are you denying that Christ ever existed, or are you denying his deity (I think this is what you are saying)?

There is more historical evidence supporting the existence of Jesus Christ than Napoleon... As for His deity, my God Jesus Christ fulfills the intent of the Old Testament, completes its shortcomings... because it was but a shadow of good things to come (Jesus). Jesus Christ made the ultimate sacrifice of His life and blood to take on the sins of the world. He had to, as we were sinners eternally separated from God, otherwise we would have been separated forever. You cannot add to Christ's sacrifice. Man cannot save himself. If you cannot see this, then you blinded and foolish.

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Romans 1:18-22 - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but THEY BECAME FUTILE IN THEIR SPECULATIONS, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

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the problem with ibmag is that he has lumped all Christians into what the lds doctrine has taught him to believe. i accept NO creed, and never have - i accept Christ, whom you deny. the Christ I profess walked in Jerusalem, born in Bethlehem (not Jerusalem mr. false prophet smith). there is an actual historical record of Christ from Josephus to John, and artifacts, record and teaching of the early church fathers.

you pin your hopes on john smith, who not only misidentified the animals in the americas, he was so ignorant of linguistics who couldn't even come up with a real language for his plates? no one in the americas (save the lamanites and nephites, a yet identified or archeologically substantiated people outside mormon anthropology) ever records the presence of a hebrew people let alone Christ in the new world. your 'christ' is the work of a man's imagination and by your own testimony not the Christ known to Peter, Paul, Mary or even the apostolic fathers.

and, how is it that my Christ never existed and yours did? you have been twisted beyond foolishness, and i sincerely hope that you will realize the distortion and lies you have been fed.

ibmag - you must honestly believe i am RC or of some reformed theology, the assumptions you make about what i believe and profess are erroneous.

El Sid - i'm sorry, i really hijacked this thread. this is my last post. if you need me i'll be at cumorah digging up.... nothing.

[This message has been edited by jrodwh00p (edited 12/30/2006 1:17a).]

Texasdanger -Not at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the Saviour and Redeemer of the world. It is just the fact that he is not the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost. He is theonly begotten in the flesh of the Father. We are all begotten spirit children of heavenly parents as was Christ in the pre-mortal existence. When we came to earth to prove ourselves worthy to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father, we were born into mortality of earthly parents. Jesus, though, had a dual nature; a mortal mother and God the Father who implanted the seed by the Holy Ghost. Thus Christ had the ability to overcome all temptation, vouluntarily lay down His life for our sake and take it up again and fulfill His foreordained role as Saviour and Redeemer of the world. By resecuing us from the impact of the fall through His atoning sacrifice, He gave us "immortality" as a free gift to everyone, as he conquered death through His resurrection. His taking on all of the sins of world through His infinite atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane gave us the opportunity to gain "eternal Life" (not just immortality) which is the highest of Gods's opportunities. Thus we can work out our salvation because of His atoning sacrifice, based on obedience to His commandments and the principle of repentance and our willing to exercise it in a truly sincere way. We do believe the Godhead is three separate and distint entities. We believe that Christ has a body of flesh and bone, even now. Do you?

That is why we claim the concept of Christ that came out of the Niceene creed is a man-made doctrine and bears no resemblance to reality!

How did this thread end up here?

Back to the subject at hand....

How does a Mormon explain the BOA in light of known and proven archeology which indicate beyond a shadow of doubt that BOA is a hoax?

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Sid, they have been answered over and over. You just didn't like the answers.

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False. Indeed, you in particular appear incapable of offering any kind of coherent response.

Cold Steel has promised a response but has yet to provide one.

Sid -you have been given so many answers but you chose to ignore them or respond with "yes, but". Have you read the Book of Abraham or the Book of Moses?

Have we missed your picture on the thread "IBMAGG's Picture thread? I would enjoy seeing yours, Rab's, Seamasters and some others.

ibmagg

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Sid, reading Martha Beck's book is a joke.

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this is probably late in the thread for this, but you really have some balls to criticize given your own history of citing discredited sources for your slanted article on the constitution.

Schizman -That is me! Of course comparing Martha Beck's book and my article on the Constitution and the separation of Church and state is a huge stretch on you part. I receive many letters from lawyers, professors and others praing this article. Never, did I receive a negative letter challenging the article or any of the facts, and the truth of the matter is, I haven't heard any from you. Not one single concrete fact have you declared to be in error. Sorry to bust your preconceived notions that you were erroneously taught!

IBMAGG

ibmagg:

Here are two incontrovertible facts. Could you please respond to them in your own analysis?

Fact 1: The actual papyrus (pictured on the first page of this post) matches facsimile 1 but for the missing portions. The drawing from the papyrus is a common funerary scene, but the "missing" parts filled in by Joseph Smith are unknown in Egyptology. In other words Joseph Smith got it wrong when he attempted to complete the drawings. No competent (non-LDS) Egyptologist would say otherwise.

Fact 2: Facsimile 3 again represents a common Egyptian scene. I this case, the priest Horus is being led to the underworld. Joseph Smith's labels for this drawing are comical. It is not "Abraham" on the throne expounding on astrology. Even though there is a black skinned person on the drawing, he is no "slave." All the figures are misidentified. No competent (non-LDS) Egyptologist would say otherwise.

Sid -I am not an expert on the Book of Abraham and don't pretend to be. We have experts on the subject so I leave it to them. But I suggest that you read carefully from the www.fairlds.org and read the June 30th presentatation on the "ABCs on the Book of Abraham." There also some other interesting presentations you might enjoy and learn from.

IBMAGG