quote:

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I truly enjoy reading the rants about the falsity of the Church and its doctrines and then stumble around in trying to explain the failing of their members to live up to the high ideals that Christ taught.

---

Unfortunately the validity of a religion has nothing to do with how closely it is adhered to by its followers.

If it has no efficacy in the lives of its members to bring about a mighty change of heart, and subsequent actions, of what value is it?

According to the LDS, they are performing about half as many child blessings as they were 20 years ago.

That isnt a sign of significant growth to me.

In 98, Hinkley asked for a growth of 100% in baptisms, there was a drop of 6%.

25% of Mormon converts remain active longterm.

THe average branch in North America is getting two missionary referrals per month.

The named-removed file is still accounted for in the 12mil Mormons.

Armand Mauss, Sociology Professor from Washington State, estimates that 25-50% of Mormon converts stay active for less than a year.

According to the LDS conference on April 6, 2002, less than 1/3 of LDS members are active.

According to the City University of New York Graduate Center found that only 2.7 Million Americans identify themselves as Mormons.

Fccording to John L Smith, the number of Mormons who have requested the LDS to remove their names has tripled from 1995 until 2002 from 35,000 to 105,000.

I know that that the number of convert baptisms still runs about 300,00 per year. The requirements to serve a mission have been raised and that has caused a temporary decline in missionaries to 52,000. I can only speak to the convert baptism in our ward but the retention and activity is very, very high. The biggest problem we have in South America, Mexico and Africa is that baptisms were taking place faster that leadership could be developed, for that does take time. Missionary efforts had to be constrained. In Mexico City alone, there are 1,000 convert baptisms per month. There is no paid ministry. We are still building 1.2 chapels a day every day of the year and the number of temples have almost tripled in the last 10 years. We are still considered the fastest growing Church in the world. How does one refute estimates of outside experts who are given no information from the Church on these matters.

I wonder how guitar's stats compare to those for other churches. I bet they are comparable.

The internet does allow for easier distribution of information about various subjects. Unfortunately, much of that information is false.

One of the things I have learned by looking at LDS material on the internet is that many Mormons, like protestants generally, have their own opinions about doctrine, which are not always consistent with what I would consider the official position of the church. Look at some of these LDS blogs. They give active Mormons a place to voice their concerns and doubts. Some say this will strengthen their faith, but I am not so sure.

quote:

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Group Blogs

Approaching Zion
Bloggernacle Times
By Common Consent
Conversation
Feminist Mormon Housewives
Millennial Star
Ministering Angels
Mormon Archipelago
Mormon Mommy Wars
Tales from the Crib
Unofficial Manifesto
Various Stages of Mormondom
Zelophehad's Daughters

Mormon Themes

A Soft Answer
About.com LDS
Baron of Deseret
By Study and Also By Faith
Chris Goble
Dave's Mormon Inquiry Blog
Deseret Blog
Drex Davis
Explorations
Faith Promoting Rumor
From Babylon to Zion
Issues in Mormon Doctrine
John Bytheway's Blog
KZion Radio Blog
Latter Day Blog
Latter Day Liberation Front
LDS Science Review
Let Your Mind Alone
Messenger and Advocate
Mormanity
Mormon Hippocrates
Mormon Metaphysics
Mormon Mommy Wars
Mormon Stories
Mormon Wasp
New Cool Thang
Nine Moons
NJ's Window
No Death Before the Fall
Our Thoughts
Outer Boroughs
Planet LDS
Ponder It
Provo Pulse
Speak Up For Truth
Splendid Sun
Straight and Narrow Blog
Sunstone Blog
The Iron Rod
The Spinozist Mormon
Theory of Everything
Truth + Way + Life
United Bretheren

LDS Perspective
LDS Review
Mark Hansen
Melissa's Book Reviews
My World
Orson's Telescope
The Only True and Living Nathan
Thoughtful Spot

Affiliations and Agglomerations

A Soft Answer LDS Blog List
LDS Blog-Ring List
LDS Women Blog Ring
Planet LDS
The Singles Blogward

Less Actives

A Good Oman
Book of Jordan
Doctrinal.net
Ebenezer Orthodoxy
Intellecxhibitionist
Joseph's Journal
Let Us Reason
Life According to Jordan
Seeking for Righteousness
Sons of Mosiah
The Metaphysical Elders
Things to Act
Virtual Theology

In the Spirit World

Book of Mormon Diary
Mormon Blog . Net
The Kolob Network
Tutissima Cassis
Wump Blog

---

http://www.timesandseasons.org/


[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 1/31/2006 8:27p).]

American Religious Identification Survey conducted a survey of over 50,000 random American households and asked them what religion they consider themselves apart of. There was no prompt, no suggestion - just the open ended question.
Mormon:
1990
2.5million
2001
2.8million

Church of Christ (what I grew up)
1990
1.8mm
2002
2.6mm

Catholic
1990
46mm
2001
51mm

Non-Denominational (I guess I would say this, but consider myself part of the Emerging Church)
1990
195,000
2001
2,489,000

No Religion
1990
13mm
2001
27mm

Scientology
1990
44,000
2002
55,000

So there was about a 12% growth in people who identify themselves as Mormons.

The official Church Statistics show that there is well over five million members in the US and a total of over 12 million world wide. There are more members now living outside the US than in and it has been that way for several years. The Church is moving over the world and is established in over 165 countries. that "little stone cut out of the mountain without hands..."

Anybody going to the "recruiting party" tonight? If you are, look me up. My name is Bob Dunn from Dallas.

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 2/1/2006 9:33a).]

quote:

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The official Church Statistics show that there is well over five million members in the US and a total of over 12 million world wide.

---

That's fine. A Catholic parish has many more members on its roles than actually show up every Sunday too. (as is true with any church.)

These are the numbers for people who identify themselves as Mormons.

The Mormon Church also still counts members who have asked to be removed - over 100,000 per year - as Mormons.


How many members do you have at your temple? What is your average attendance like on Sunday? How many are considered in good standing because they are paying their full tithe?

Patriarch, what is your story?

Can you share with us how you decided to leave the LDS church? I am sure it was a difficult decision.

Modano

Sorry for the the delay. I just saw this.

My story is not nearly as exciting as most of the ones you might read on the internet. But, if I wait to compose something that would be interesting to read, I'd never do it, so here is a little bit of my history:

Other than my immediate family (mom and brother), no one else in my family has ever been a member of the LDS church. In addition, I wasn't an active member when I left, so I didn't have to deal with the social difficulties that come with many mormons when they leave.

I joined the LDS church as a convert when I was 10 along with my mom and brother. We attended frequently but moved a lot so were never that tied into a particular ward or branch. I did attend seminary (morning scripture study) all 4 years of high school. I memorized a lot of scripture, but did not go on a mission. I've been to a couple of different temples, both times baptized as a proxy for 10 to 15 folks. I stop attending when I went to college (and a couple years after that as well).

My wife and I married without ever really discussing our beliefs. Neither of us were active in a church when we married. When we decided to attend church, we collided. She had been raised in a bible church, mostly listening to Bob Thieme on tape.

I became tired of reading all of the anti-mormon information that people gave me, so I instead began an in depth study of the Mormon church from its standpoint. I purchased all of the basic religion books that are used at BYU for undergraduate students. They are essentially scripture study/commentary guides for the OT, NT, Book of Mormon, and D&C. I went through each one, studying that particular book as I went, praying before, during and after the study -- using the test in Moroni and James. I wanted to know what to believe. I wanted to know what Mormons believed, not what some anti-cult evangelical thought mormons believed.

I then studied a little church history and how we got our Bible today. I studied how we got our canon and what evidence supports the canon and the scripture. I studied methods of interpretation. I then did a similar thing for the mormon scriptures and modern revelation.

More convincing to me than the evidence about the questionable credibility of Joseph Smith was the different way in which the Bible and LDS scriptures are proven to be inspired and were received by us.

We have no transcripts to support Mormon scriptures, save that used to support the book of Abraham. The LDS position on that particular transcript (now) is not that it was translated, but somehow used to give JS revelation.

My faith is based in part on the fact that the Bible is inerrant and inspired. If mormon scripture (and modern revelation) were truly scripture, then it would not conflict with the bible. It does. In those cases, an LDS' answer is that the Bible was not translated correctly. This despite the overwhelming evidence supporting the vast majority of the contents of the bible. It makes no logical or rational sense to me for an LDS to take this position on the bible, yet dismiss the problems with the book of abraham.

I think it is extraordinarily difficult for any life long member of the LDS church to leave. I think I was able to do because I had not been entrenched in the lifestyle and we did not have many close friends or family in the church. I believe many mormons are simply brainwashed (as are many christians in other denominations). I don't think the leaders of the mormon church do this intentionally, in some evil premeditated plan, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way. A lot of people are operating on someone else's faith, whether it be their parents, their spouse, or John Calvin. Mormons really believe their church is true. At least one Sunday of every month, the entire worship service is devoted to bearing and listening to others bear their testimony (i.e., "I know the church is true. I know the bom is the Word of God, etc." ). If you hear anything enough, you will believe it.

I'm rambling, but I'm not sharing anything different than all of the folks like you and others try to share with mormons. Unless they want to investigate the church for themselves, and examine the evidence of both christainity and the LDS church, they will will never see the light. The feeling associated with the truthfulness of the mormon church is strong. I even have my doubts at time. What if that feeling is the Holy Spirit? Have I rejected the Holy Spirit? -- only if you believe the Holy Spirit requires you to ignore logic and reason. God is a God of order. I don't believe setting aside those aspects of our soul is consistent with his attributes.

I left the mormon church about 5 or 6 years ago. I now question every belief and every passage I read. I want to know what scripture teaches about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I want to know whether a particular belief I have is biblical. It is sometimes exhausting to do so. But, as I recently read in a book I am currently going through, everyone has a "lifelong duty to conform one's beliefs to the Word of God, to always be growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. When it comes to the issue of God's character and love, one must allow the Bible to define one's beliefs."

[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 2/1/2006 10:45p).]

Patriarch, you are a brave man.....one thing I believe, is if you seek God, He will reveal Himself to you....

even if you seek Him because He chose you before the foundation of the world

Patriarch, thanks. That is a pretty inspiring story. Your commitment to study, prayer and investigation is impressive.

I was re-reading the Gospel of Luke last night. With all the LDS discussion on this forum, I kind of had Mormons on the brain. Anyway, as I read all of the rich historical detail in Luke's gospel, it struck me just how different the Bible and the BoM are. Just think about the towns...Nazareth, Capernaum, etc. All of those towns are known to have existed. I doubt that there has been a legitimate shred of evidence of any town/city discussed in the BoM. That just defies reality. Broad civilizations do not hide. They leave traces of themselves. Somehwere!

Anyway, thanks for your testimony.

Patriarch,

Thanks for that story. I won't try to trivialize it, since I know it took some guts, even though you say it wasn't as hard as for a life-long member. For your sincere desire to know the truth, I commend you.

quote:

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My faith is based in part on the fact that the Bible is inerrant and inspired.

---

This troubled me though. You will never get any true student of the Bible to believe that the Bible we have today, in any form, is truly inerrant and without many troubling changes. You say that the Book of Mormon can't be true if it in any way conflicts with what the Bible says? I say based on that, the Bible itself can't be true. Despite popular protests on this board by some of the uninformed, the Bible we have now is not 99% or more unchanged from the original texts. And it's a piece of cake to prove that, hardly worth anyone's time. Therefore, I believe your faith regarding this is build on a foundation of sand, if you will.

I hope you know I say these things with a large amount of respect for you. It seems that instead of blindly buying in to the anti-rhetoric like most on this board do, you at least sought God in the way that you knew how. I know that one day you will know the truth more firmly than you ever thought you could, if you continue to follow the Lord and stay in his care. And thanks for your contributions on this board, they are welcome and a breath of fresh air.

quote:

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It seems that instead of blindly buying in to the anti-rhetoric like most on this board do, you at least sought God in the way that you knew how.

---

I thought you and ibmmagg were getting angry at the condesending rhetoric towards Mormons that many Christians have spouted off on here. If that is the case, why are you paying back lash for lash by saying that if Patriarch studies and figures out that the BOM is false, he must be blindly buying into the anti-mormon rhetoric.

At least attempt to be consistant, even if your church founders were not.

Liam:

quote:

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You say that the Book of Mormon can't be true if it in any way conflicts with what the Bible says? I say based on that, the Bible itself can't be true.

---

There's a big difference between simple scribal errors and doctrinals teachings which contradict previous doctrinal teachings.

quote:

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You say that the Book of Mormon can't be true if it in any way conflicts with what the Bible says? I say based on that, the Bible itself can't be true.

---

The Bible isnt the one that is changing itself to meet with societal standards like the Mormons have done with their doctrine concerning polygamy and race relations.

quote:

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Despite popular protests on this board by some of the uninformed

---

Again with the condesending rhetoric. Why do you believe that only you can be right and everyone else is uninformed?

quote:

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by saying that if Patriarch studies and figures out that the BOM is false, he must be blindly buying into the anti-mormon rhetoric.

---

What? I in fact said the opposite about Patriarch. I commended him for NOT blindly buying into anything....Whether it's pro-Mormon or anti-Mormon or anything you choose.

Bracy

quote:

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There's a big difference between simple scribal errors and doctrinals teachings which contradict previous doctrinal teachings.

---

Not when the errors are the cause.

No - you were saying that about everyone but Patriarch. You were acting exactly in the same manner that you complained about Christians acting. Condesending and rude.

quote:

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blindly buying in to the anti-rhetoric like most on this board

---

Are you a prophet? How can you possibly know if anyone else has taken the time to study like Patriarch? You are grouping people into places where you have no knowledge and in doing so you are being condesending and rude - exactly what you were complaining about the last couple of days.

Liam:

quote:

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Not when the errors are the cause.

---

What scribal errors do you believe are the cause of contradicting doctrinal teachings in scripture?

^^

Everything that isnt convieniant to the docrtines made up by the false prophets of Mormon.

quote:

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The Bible isnt the one that is changing itself to meet with societal standards like the Mormons have done with their doctrine concerning polygamy and race relations.

---

Again, you're embarassing yourself by taking this stance. Please stop.

quote:

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Again with the condesending rhetoric. Why do you believe that only you can be right and everyone else is uninformed?

---

I'm sorry if you see it that way. But it's true that much is spewed about MY Church on here that is both uninformed and ignorant of facts, contexts, or truths. I'm here to correct that. I apologize if it seems condescending.

quote:

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Are you a prophet? How can you possibly know if anyone else has taken the time to study like Patriarch? You are grouping people into places where you have no knowledge and in doing so you are being condesending and rude - exactly what you were complaining about the last couple of days.

---

Guitarsoup

I apologized to you already about this, so I won't again unless you need me to. One of the drawbacks of posting on an anonymous forum is that tone is not adequately conveyed. I'm guilty of lashing out when there's probably no cause myself, so I understand. No disrespect intended, fair enough?

However, as an intelligent observer, I can with a high degree of certainty ascertain when someone is informed about MY religion and when they're not. It's not rocket science, especially when it's been happening for years. No, I'm not a Prophet and don't claim any divine wisdom as far as what everyone has studied or not studied. I don't need to be on this board. The difference between you and Patriarch is a huge amount of knowledge about the real LDS beliefs and practices, and I can immediately see that from your comments. That's why when he makes a statement about what I believe, I know that he actually knows what he's talking about, instead of what his youth minister or pastor has instructed him to believe.

You dont correct it. In fact, you dont even address it. What you do it make condesending comments, maybe a personal attack and move on. You have yet to address any of the issues I have brought up.

You havent challenged a single issue that I have brought up.

The Mormon church was racist for almost 150 - wouldnt allow blacks to be priests until 1978. According to the BOM, blacks are black because it is the mark of Cain and Ham. That is racist, and is the exact same ideas that led people to believe it was ok to have slaves - because they were less than humans because they were black.

You dont address the fact that polygamy occurred after 1862 - when the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act was signed into law by Abraham Lincoln. Smith and Young said to follow the laws of the land, but obviously that only applied to the convieniant ones. Not the ones that would prevent them from marrying lots of women or even children.

You dont address the fact that there was a state law in Illinois in 1833 that said Bigamy was illegal, yet Mormons there still practiced it there.

You dont address the fact that Woodruff stated in 1890 that Mormons would FINALLY follow the US laws on polygamy, yet he married another wife in 1897, breaking the law and supposed current Mormon doctrine.

You dont address the fact that the supposed Book of Abraham was proven to be nothing more than the Egyptian Book of Breathings which was dated to be hundreds of years after Abraham lived.

You dont address the fact that the BofMormon has needed over 4,000 changes - some of which purposely tone down the extreme racial rhetoric found within.

Keep skating around the real issues. Maybe the one that needs to study it more isnt Patriarch, me and the other Christians on the board.

Guitarsoup,

You seem to think I'm here to be questioned by you, and to answer your questions immediately...Is that really the case, in your mind? Your questions, every single one of them (perhaps with the exception of the Book of Abraham question) have been answered on this board, usually by me, at LEAST once in the past calendar year. And I'm talking EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

I tire of repeating the same things to every new critic who dreams that he's got the "facts" to finally disprove the Mormons....It's been going on for a long time, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to rehash. Do a little research, use the search function, find the answers, and then we can be on the same page. If you feel that this is skating around the issue, that's your problem. But the answers are there, if you really care about them.

Now, as to the Book of Abraham question, I admittedly am not very current on this, and in my free time plan to do a little research for you and find out the story. Since I've been inundated with your side of it, I have a good place to start.

Liam:

quote:

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You seem to think I'm here to be questioned by you, and to answer your questions immediately...Is that really the case, in your mind? Your questions, every single one of them (perhaps with the exception of the Book of Abraham question) have been answered on this board, usually by me, at LEAST once in the past calendar year. And I'm talking EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

---

Perhaps an answer to my question can be found in one or more of your posts over the past year, I don't know, but when I try to a search for threads from that long ago, I get timeout errors.

Sorry Bracy, I hope it gets fixed soon. I get the same problem, by the way.

You of all people should feel my pain on this. Although you seem to be much more patient than I do about it.

quote:

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You seem to think I'm here to be questioned by you, and to answer your questions immediately...Is that really the case, in your mind

---

You are here, discussing Mormonism. But when questions are asked, you just attack the questioner and move on. I guess you didnt do real good on your mission trip. If you dont want to participate in discussions, then dont participate, but if you have time to act rude or condesending to the questioner, then you probably have time to answer simple questions.

quote:

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Your questions, every single one of them (perhaps with the exception of the Book of Abraham question) have been answered on this board, usually by me, at LEAST once in the past calendar year. And I'm talking EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

---

Then link to the answers. The Texags search function didnt work in answering my questions. If you are getting the same questions and replying with the same answers, bookmark it and link it, if it is such a waste of your time to actually type out a simple response.

I havent read the board all that much in the past, so I dont really know what has gone on with it.

quote:

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I tire of repeating the same things to every new critic who dreams that he's got the "facts" to finally disprove the Mormons

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Then link to where it has been discussed before. If I have questions further than what was asked or answered before, I will post them. If you want to be helpful in that, you are more than welcome to be. ibmagg seems to actually answer things more than you, so if you drop the ball, he could probably help.

quote:

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It's been going on for a long time, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to rehash.

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But you do have the time to make rude and condesending remarks to everyone who has questions about your religion. If you dont have time, dont post.

quote:

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Do a little research, use the search function, find the answers, and then we can be on the same page.

---

I have done a lot of research. The Search function doesnt work all that well. If you are so much smarter and better informed than me, why not attempt to catch me up?

quote:

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The difference between you and Patriarch is a huge amount of knowledge about the real LDS beliefs and practices, and I can immediately see that from your comments. That's why when he makes a statement about what I believe, I know that he actually knows what he's talking about, instead of what his youth minister or pastor has instructed him to believe.

---

And there is where you are wrong. I have studied Mormonism a great deal. I have never once heard it mentioned at any church I have attended, by any youth, college minister or otherwise. The only other religion I have ever studied at a Christian church was Buddhism, and that was because I was preparing to leave for a mission trip to Thailand - which is 95% Buddhist. Part of my preperation for that trip was to understand Buddhism, because that was necessary to know to convey the message of Christ to Buddhists.

quote:

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Although you seem to be much more patient than I do about it.

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From your words and comments, that wouldnt seem to be very difficult.

Liam:

quote:

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You of all people should feel my pain on this. Although you seem to be much more patient than I do about it.

---

You bet I can.

I keep many of my replies saved on my harddrive so that when I'm asked the same questions over and over, I can just copy and paste the response without starting over from scratch each time.

Someday the Emerging Church will be huge and everyone will be attacking me.

What is "guitarsoup?" Is it Kosher?

Its kinda like Voodoo Soup, but with less acid.