dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

---

You don't think we are exposed to the presence of God now? The Israelites who heard Him speak and turned right around and made an idol? Those who were in Jesus' physical presence?

Why would God not be in everyone's presence now, in the way you believe will occur, instead of waiting until the temporal punishment?

If it's the presence of God that is the key, then it's something God must to do for hearts to be changed. They didn't just choose on their own, God has to intervene.

And, if it's the presence of God that changes people's hearts in temporal punishment, and everyone's hearts are changed, then that would mean the presence of God is irresistible.

Therefore, it's not really reformed theology's belief in God needing to change people's hearts, however that may be done, in order for them to be reconciled, or even that He is irresistible, that you have a problem with, but the idea that He may not do that for everyone (eventually).

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

---

You don't think we are exposed to the presence of God now? The Israelites who heard Him speak and turned right around and made an idol? Those who were in Jesus' physical presence?

Why would God not be in everyone's presence now, in the way you believe will occur, instead of waiting until the temporal punishment?

If it's the presence of God that is the key, then it's something God must to do for hearts to be changed. They didn't just choose on their own, God has to intervene.

And, if it's the presence of God that changes people's hearts in temporal punishment, and everyone's hearts are changed, then that would mean the presence of God is irresistible.

Therefore, it's not really reformed theology's belief in God needing to change people's hearts, however that may be done, in order for them to be reconciled, or even that He is irresistible, that you have a problem with, but the idea that He may not do that for everyone (eventually).

---

Fair enough and that is fine if you believe everybody has a free will chance to accept or reject God. If not then under Reformed theology you are believing God knowingly creates people predestined for eternal torment. There is no free will or choice.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

---

And, if it's the presence of God that changes people's hearts in temporal punishment, and everyone's hearts are changed, then that would mean the presence of God is irresistible.

---

So I guess the premise would be that in temporal punishment, there is no more free will. Has to be. Eventually everyone becomes a calvinist!

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

---

And, if it's the presence of God that changes people's hearts in temporal punishment, and everyone's hearts are changed, then that would mean the presence of God is irresistible.

---

So I guess the premise would be that in temporal punishment, there is no more free will. Has to be. Eventually everyone becomes a calvinist!

---

Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at. At the very least, He does something to make everyone choose Him.

In the end, it's God doing something, it's always that way, no matter your theology.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

---

And, if it's the presence of God that changes people's hearts in temporal punishment, and everyone's hearts are changed, then that would mean the presence of God is irresistible.

---

So I guess the premise would be that in temporal punishment, there is no more free will. Has to be. Eventually everyone becomes a calvinist!

---

I can do free will where people decide their fate or Christian Universalism. Can not do present Calvinism/Reformed theology if double predestination coupled with eternal hell of any sort. Means God is preordaining people to hell. And that is not just.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

---

And, if it's the presence of God that changes people's hearts in temporal punishment, and everyone's hearts are changed, then that would mean the presence of God is irresistible.

---

So I guess the premise would be that in temporal punishment, there is no more free will. Has to be. Eventually everyone becomes a calvinist!

---

And that is not just.

---

Says who? You? Are you the arbiter of a Holy God?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is the only theology that says that unless you are of the preordained elect, then you are predestined to ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology teaches that.

---

But I haven't touched on that at all. I haven't been interested in discussing that aspect in this post. There's a big group of us that believe in eternal hell and then you, who believes everyone is ultimately saved, and that's been the point I've been trying to discuss, and the purpose of this post at the start.

---

But isn't that what you believe? That is my gripe with Reformed/Calvinist theology. No other theology says that.
And it is hard for me to parse that away from the concept of ECT hell if you believe in ECt hell and believe are predestined to be sent there. By God.

---

With all due respect, I just don't want to discuss this right now. It's not as simple as answering a quick question or two. It's a lot deeper than that with an understanding of God and all His attributes and our responsibility.

My best attempt to give a quick answer to show good faith is that we all choose sin, and will always choose sin without a heart change, and every sin is immensely offensive to the one true God and requires repentance and reconciliation. If we don't believe in Jesus and remain unrepentant, we justly end up in eternal torment.

Our sin is a debt that we could never, ever repay. Like the king forgiving the debt worth 200,000 years worth of work his servant owed, a debt impossible to repay, God forgives us through His son. Without His mercy, we are delivered to the jailers until our debt is repaid (hell, for eternity, because repayment is not possible).

---

Fair enough. It has been argued for centuries so I doubt we will solve it here.

---

Ok, I have a question for you now…

What happens in the temporal punishment? How and why do people in temporal punishment come to be believers? Why is the second chance enough to turn them into believers that choose God and not this first chance, life here and now?

---

Because God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved. The only other logical conclusion is that God, in His sovereignty, allows free will and ultimate rejection. I do not think double predestination is Biblical.

---

This doesn't answer my questions. People reject God now, go to temporal punishment, then…what? How do they become righteousness enough for Heaven?

---

Post mortem reconciliation. Have you read CS Lewis "The Great Divorce"?

---

No. So please, explain to me. How does someone come to believe in Christ in temporal punishment?

---

Because the punishment is corrective. The person is made aware of their sins and need for Jesus. Just like my dad did to me. Abba. Daddy.
May I ask what the purpose of ECT hell is? God is all good, how does good come from that? All things shall be made new.

---

So, why did God not make them aware of their sins in this life? And how are they made aware?

---

Because they are exposed to the presence of God. God is just and merciful. Do you believe it is just to create people pre destined for eternal torment? And sure God could do that if He desired. Scripture does not say that in my opinion.

---

And, if it's the presence of God that changes people's hearts in temporal punishment, and everyone's hearts are changed, then that would mean the presence of God is irresistible.

---

So I guess the premise would be that in temporal punishment, there is no more free will. Has to be. Eventually everyone becomes a calvinist!

---

And that is not just.

---

Says who? You? Are you the arbiter of a Holy God?

---

Not at all. God can do whatever he wants. But He is just. You posted in this thread that you didn't think it was just if God preordained people to hell. Obviously, taking lives is just from Scripture and makes sense since God created all people.
From the flood, to Sodom and Gomorrah, to the slaughter of the canaanites, etc. it was always death. Which is just as God created them and can destroy them. But no mention of eternal torment. And rightly so because that would be unjust which God is not.
Obviously God can do anything but His character is just.

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

---

First of all, Scripture doesn't say we "end up in Heaven", God comes down to us and we eternally abide with Him in the new Jerusalem. Punishment can be severe like for Judas. Your verse does not say Judas's punishment is eternal.

And no need to ask for forgiveness. You are a wonderful poster. We just disagree on some non salvific issues. Which is fine,

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

---

First of all, Scripture doesn't say we "end up in Heaven", God comes down to us and we eternally abide with Him in the new Jerusalem. Punishment can be severe like for Judas. Your verse does not say Judas's punishment is eternal.

And no need to ask for forgiveness. You are a wonderful poster. We just disagree on some non salvific issues. Which is fine,

---

You're splitting hairs here. You must know what I mean when I say "in Heaven".

And you're missing my point. Oh well.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

---

First of all, Scripture doesn't say we "end up in Heaven", God comes down to us and we eternally abide with Him in the new Jerusalem. Punishment can be severe like for Judas. Your verse does not say Judas's punishment is eternal.

And no need to ask for forgiveness. You are a wonderful poster. We just disagree on some non salvific issues. Which is fine,

---

You're splitting hairs here. You must know what I mean when I say "in Heaven".

And you're missing my point. Oh well.

---

Sorry it is a pet peeve of mine as a lot of Christians seem to have a very non Biblical view of heaven and eternal destinations in general. I know when I was younger I had been taught that when you die you "go to heaven or hell" which I no longer believe is Biblical.
But then again, I was taught a lot of stuff that I no longer believe is Biblical. Why I am a heretic.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

---

First of all, Scripture doesn't say we "end up in Heaven", God comes down to us and we eternally abide with Him in the new Jerusalem. Punishment can be severe like for Judas. Your verse does not say Judas's punishment is eternal.

And no need to ask for forgiveness. You are a wonderful poster. We just disagree on some non salvific issues. Which is fine,

---

You're splitting hairs here. You must know what I mean when I say "in Heaven".

And you're missing my point. Oh well.

---

Sorry it is a pet peeve of mine as a lot of Christians seem to have a very non Biblical view of heaven and eternal destinations in general. I know when I was younger I had been taught that when you die you "go to heaven or hell" which I no longer believe is Biblical.
But then again, I was taught a lot of stuff that I no longer believe is Biblical. Why I am a heretic.

---

Well, for what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of "heaven".

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

---

First of all, Scripture doesn't say we "end up in Heaven", God comes down to us and we eternally abide with Him in the new Jerusalem. Punishment can be severe like for Judas. Your verse does not say Judas's punishment is eternal.

And no need to ask for forgiveness. You are a wonderful poster. We just disagree on some non salvific issues. Which is fine,

---

You're splitting hairs here. You must know what I mean when I say "in Heaven".

And you're missing my point. Oh well.

---

Sorry it is a pet peeve of mine as a lot of Christians seem to have a very non Biblical view of heaven and eternal destinations in general. I know when I was younger I had been taught that when you die you "go to heaven or hell" which I no longer believe is Biblical.
But then again, I was taught a lot of stuff that I no longer believe is Biblical. Why I am a heretic.

---

Well, for what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of "heaven".

---

May I ask what you think Scripture says happens when we die? Because it is nothing like I was taught.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

---

First of all, Scripture doesn't say we "end up in Heaven", God comes down to us and we eternally abide with Him in the new Jerusalem. Punishment can be severe like for Judas. Your verse does not say Judas's punishment is eternal.

And no need to ask for forgiveness. You are a wonderful poster. We just disagree on some non salvific issues. Which is fine,

---

You're splitting hairs here. You must know what I mean when I say "in Heaven".

And you're missing my point. Oh well.

---

Sorry it is a pet peeve of mine as a lot of Christians seem to have a very non Biblical view of heaven and eternal destinations in general. I know when I was younger I had been taught that when you die you "go to heaven or hell" which I no longer believe is Biblical.
But then again, I was taught a lot of stuff that I no longer believe is Biblical. Why I am a heretic.

---

Well, for what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of "heaven".

---

May I ask what you think Scripture says happens when we die? Because it is nothing like I was taught.

---

I think there is a lot of uncertainty about when we die, before Jesus returns. Some think we wait, like a soul sleep, others think our souls go to Heaven. I think the redeemed go straight to Heaven, in God's presence, worshipping and eagerly waiting for Jesus' return and final judgement. The resurrection of the dead occurs at Jesus' second coming where we receive new bodies, there will be the final judgement, and all things, the heavens and the earth, will be created new. We will spend eternity with God in the new Jerusalem.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Forgive me if we've already discussed this, but if everyone ends up in Heaven, why would it have been better for Judas to have never been born? Wouldn't eternity with God be the best of all things, even if there was terrible suffering prior? Better than never being born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

---

First of all, Scripture doesn't say we "end up in Heaven", God comes down to us and we eternally abide with Him in the new Jerusalem. Punishment can be severe like for Judas. Your verse does not say Judas's punishment is eternal.

And no need to ask for forgiveness. You are a wonderful poster. We just disagree on some non salvific issues. Which is fine,

---

You're splitting hairs here. You must know what I mean when I say "in Heaven".

And you're missing my point. Oh well.

---

Sorry it is a pet peeve of mine as a lot of Christians seem to have a very non Biblical view of heaven and eternal destinations in general. I know when I was younger I had been taught that when you die you "go to heaven or hell" which I no longer believe is Biblical.
But then again, I was taught a lot of stuff that I no longer believe is Biblical. Why I am a heretic.

---

Well, for what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of "heaven".

---

May I ask what you think Scripture says happens when we die? Because it is nothing like I was taught.

---

I think there is a lot of uncertainty about when we die, before Jesus returns. Some think we wait, like a soul sleep, others think our souls go to Heaven. I think the redeemed go straight to Heaven, in God's presence, worshipping and eagerly waiting for Jesus' return and final judgement. The resurrection of the dead occurs at Jesus' second coming where we receive new bodies, there will be the final judgement, and all things, the heavens and the earth, will be created new. We will spend eternity with God in the new Jerusalem.

---

I agree with you and think that is Biblical.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

I think there is a lot of uncertainty about when we die, before Jesus returns. Some think we wait, like a soul sleep, others think our souls go to Heaven. I think the redeemed go straight to Heaven, in God's presence, worshipping and eagerly waiting for Jesus' return and final judgement. The resurrection of the dead occurs at Jesus' second coming where we receive new bodies, there will be the final judgement, and all things, the heavens and the earth, will be created new. We will spend eternity with God in the new Jerusalem.

---

I think a lot of that confusion/uncertainty is based on a very human understanding of time as linear (and in one direction). This gets into a philosophical idea/discussion that is distinct from universalism so I don't want to derail this thread by going further but I think that understanding, while based on our human 'condition' and current physics, is a false limitation of God's power and contradicted by much of theoretical physics today.

My father has always believed that when we die we are truly dead until God resurrects us, and that He needs no assistance from us to do so (cremation etc). But he's also always been very entertained by folks ideas of what the resurrected body and heaven will 'look like.' I think folks ideas of time and sequencing are similarly sometimes/often poorly developed. As I get older it's easier for me to just say 'I don't know' more often.

I have come to think that both "soul sleep" and our immediate presence with God might be true. I believe God exists outside of time, and from his perspective, and from the perspective of the dead person, they are immediately with God, perhaps even resurrected immediately, while from our perspective, they are asleep until the resurrection happens. Think about when you fall asleep at night or if you have surgery and are put under, you are totally unaware that hours pass. You just wake up and it's hours later. It could be similar to that. From God's perspective, maybe everything is all happening at the same time. It blows the mind.

Rex Racer said:

---

I have come to think that both "soul sleep" and our immediate presence with God might be true. I believe God exists outside of time, and from his perspective, and from the perspective of the dead person, they are immediately with God, perhaps even resurrected immediately, while from our perspective, they are asleep until the resurrection happens. Think about when you fall asleep at night or if you have surgery and are put under, you are totally unaware that hours pass. You just wake up and it's hours later. It could be similar to that. From God's perspective, maybe everything is all happening at the same time. It blows the mind.

---

I remember, as a child, the idea of eternity almost scared me. It's just so mind boggling. The awe I feel when I think of that or even just the order and workings of creation - phew. It's why I love the final chapters of Job so much. The awe it gives me of our wonderful, powerful God. My mind is so finite, I cannot understand but only a tiny sliver of things.

Jesus is LORD of the living and the dead Roman 14:9 and controls the ultimate fate of all souls. "If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men unto myself" John 12:32. I believe He will do just that. " And God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good…" Genesis 1:31.

Kothmann5 said:

---

Jesus is LORD of the living and the dead Roman 14:9 and controls the ultimate fate of all souls. "If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men unto myself" John 12:32. I believe He will do just that. " And God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good…" Genesis 1:31.

---

Preach on!

dermdoc said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2022/12/05/the-inescapable-love-of-god/
Worth a read in my opinion.

---

I have not not read the book but I am curious whether you are a "hard universalist" or a "hopeful universalist."

Or am I making a false assumption?

TIA

---

I don't know what of these phrases mean but I can tell you that Dermdoc falls under "hopeful"

---

I believe in corrective punishment that is not eternal. So I am a heretic. And please do not worry about mine or my family's eternal destination. We all know the Lord, love our neighbors, love God, and follow Jesus.

---

Like I said, I didn't know what any of those phrases was implying.

It wasn't a criticism. It was more just a commentary on your generally optimistic and cheerful outlook.

I don't agree with you on everything but I do find your demeanor and optimistic nature pleasant.

I've never even heard of the concept of "corrective punishment that is not eternal".

What does that mean to you and where are you deriving the concept?

---

From early church fathers like St. Gregory, St. Clement of Alexandria, and others George MacDonald who was CS Lewis's idol and mentor. Karl Barth. Present day David Bentley Hart, Ilaria Ramelli, Robb Parry, and the above mentioned author Thomas Talbott.
I have posted numerous links in the past and I doubt if anybody who posts on here has explored them.

---

Something came across my feed, so forgive the old bump, but it concerns David Bentley hart. His book was reviewed by Peter Leithart and he offers a condescending response but it should be unpacked before you defer to his belief on universalism:

https://theopolisinstitute.com/leithart_post/good-god-a-response/

Dude doesn't even read the Bible like you do; in fact he rejects the continuity of it, and ignores plain reading and moral teaching for allegory. He reads like a modern liberal scholar rather than church father. Perhaps you do as well, though? I don't think so based on what you said, though. Why should we defer to his theology?

Quote:

---

You ask if I think the YHVH of the Old Testament was "good." First of all, there is no single YHVH in the Hebrew corpus. The various texts that the Second Temple redactors collated into the Torah and Tanakh emanate from various epochs in the development of Canaanite and Israelitic religion, and reflect the spiritual sensibilities of very different moments in the evolution of what would in time become Judaism. Most of the Hebrew Bible is a polytheistic gallimaufry, and YHVH is a figure in a shifting pantheon of elohim or deities. In the later prophets, he is for the most part a very good god, yes, and even appears to have become something like God in the fullest sense. But in most of the Old Testament he is of course presented as quite evil: a blood-drenched, cruel, war-making, genocidal, irascible, murderous, jealous storm-god. Neither he nor his rival or king or father or equal or alter ego (depending on which era of Cannanite and Israelitic religion we are talking about) El (or El Elyon or Elohim) is a good god. Each is a psychologically limited mythic figure from a rich but violent ancient Near Eastern cultureor, more accurately, two cultures that progressively amalgamated over many centuries.

Judaism (as we know it today) and Christianity came into existence in much the same period of Graeco-Roman culture, and both reflect the religious thinking of their time. Neither was ever literalist in the way you apparently are. The only ancient Christian figure whom we can reliably say to have read the Bible in the manner of modern fundamentalists was Marcion of Sinope. He exhibited far greater insight than modern fundamentalists, however, in that he recognized that the god described in the Hebrew Bibleif taken in the mythic terms provided thereis something of a monster and hence obviously not the Christian God. Happily, his literalism was an aberration.

Much of the Judaism of the first century, like the Christianity of the apostolic age, presumed that a spiritual or allegorical reading of the Hebrew texts was the correct one. Philo of Alexandria was a perfectly faithful Jewish intellectual of his age, as was Paul, and both rarely interpreted scripture in any but allegorical ways. Even when, in the New Testament, the history of God's dealings with Israel is united to the saving work of Christas in Acts or Hebrewsit is in the thoroughly reinterpreted and intenerated form that one finds also in the book of Wisdom (a worked audibly echoed in Romans, incidentally).

In short, you want me to account for myself in a way answerable to the hermeneutical practices of communities gestated within a religion born in the sixteenth century. But those practices are at once superstitious and deeply bizarre. They are not Christian in any meaningful way. They are not Jewish either, as it happens. They are a late Protestant invention, and a deeply silly one. From Paul through the high Middle Ages, only the spiritual reading of the Old Testament was accorded doctrinal or theological authority. In that tradition, even "literal" exegesis was not the sort of literalism you seem to presume. Not to read the Bible in the proper manner is not to read it as the Bible at all; scripture is in-spired, that is, only when read "spiritually."

In fact, it is for you to account for your beliefs, since they are so incompatible with the teachings and practices of the ancient church and the New Testament regarding the reading of scripture. And, while we are at it, please go back and read Galatians several times. Then, in fact, read Hebrews. If you cannot see what is going on in those textshow much of ancient Hebrew tradition is rejected and reinterpreted even in being preserved and reclaimedthen you are not paying attention.

---

I will respond if you tell me what you believe Untimate reconciliation is. And I respect the "hell" out of you.

If God loves everyone, then universalism is the only thing that makes sense.