I will say your Reformed description of PSA is much less harsh than I have read. As FTACof88 said, it seems like you are taking out the penal part of it.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And edited to add, why the need to change theology that had been in place for centuries?

---

My take...theology up to that point was fairly basic as the main focus had been on who Christ was/is as well as the basics of the Trinity. There simply was not time for these church fathers to spend crafting detailed systematic theology material until much later. Not saying it was all basic and rudimentary, but the focus was more so on fighting early heresy and not so much diving into the depths of the great doctrines that we have today.

---

Disagree. And you might say, in your opinion, the great Reformed doctrines. The majority of Christendom do not agree with those doctrines. Which means nothing as all I care about is what is correct.
And I really appreciate the more civil tone of this thread now. By both of us.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

The full context from Augustine's sermon is worth noting instead of a carefully selected excerpt. Augustine reflects on the hope and glory of the cross of Christ, describing how "by his death, Jesus performed the most wonderful exchange with us. Through us, he died; through him, we shall live." This is the framework within which the quote lives, not a courtroom, but a loving exchange.

Doing some research and borrowing heavily from others here, the word "punishment" is at the heart of this issue, so we should look deeper at that.

Augustine is affirming:
Christ truly bore something that belonged to sinners, suffering and death, which are the consequence of sin introduced into the world by the Fall.
This was a genuine act of substitution rooted in love.
The cross is real, costly, and accomplishes something on our behalf.

Augustine is NOT affirming:
That God the Father was wrathful toward God the Son.
That divine punishment was transferred to Christ as a legal transaction.
That the cross was primarily about satisfying a divine need to punish someone due to an exigency of God's nature.

The key distinction is this: death and suffering entered the world as the consequence of sin. Christ, who is sinless, freely entered into that fallen condition and bore its full weight. He did not need to bear it, he chose to accept it out of love.

Augustine asks what believers may "promise themselves as the gift of God's grace, when for their sake God's only Son, co-eternal with the Father, was not content only to be born as man from human stock but even died at the hands of the men he had created." The emphasis is astonishment at love, not satisfaction of legal wrath.

On the other hand, PSA as systematized by Calvin insists that:

1. God's wrath demands punishment.
2. That punishment is legally transferred to Christ.
3. Christ absorbs divine anger in our place.

Augustine's framework is meaningfully different. Augustine writes that "by the greater and more admirable grace of the Savior, the punishment of sin is turned to the service of righteousness. For then it was proclaimed to man, 'If you sin, you shall die'; now it is said to the martyr, 'Die, that you sin not.'" The punishment Augustine is talking about is death itself, the condition of fallen human nature, not a divine legal sentence being executed against Christ.

Augustine is squarely within the tradition of what theologians call the "wonderful exchange" (admirabile commercium). This is where Christ takes what is ours (sin's consequences: suffering, death, abandonment), and gives us what is His (righteousness, life, divine sonship). This is definitely substitutionary language, but it operates within a theology of love and participation, not divine retribution as an exigent demand from God's nature.

So does that quote from Augustine support elements of PSA? The sincere answer from my perspective is yes, sort of. Augustine's language anticipates some of the logic that the Reformers would later develop, and that is precisely why the Reformers love to point to him so heavily. But there is a crucial gap between:
Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

Calvin's take introduces a problematic internal division within the Trinity that Augustine never advocated, as though the Father is against the Son. We must defer to the classical theology view that the entire Trinity acts in unity in the work of redemption. The cross is not the Father punishing the Son; it is the Son freely offering Himself to the Father on behalf of humanity in an act of perfect obedience and love that heals the rupture sin caused.

Augustine's quote is not evidence for PSA as Calvin articulated it. It is evidence that the Church has always understood the cross as deeply substitutionary but within a theology of love, sacrifice, healing, and participation rather than a purely legal/forensic framework of wrath-transfer.

The cross is both more demanding and more beautiful than PSA allows. It is not a legal settlement. That is a relatively recent innovation. The correct answer is that it is a divine love story in which God enters fully into the worst of what it means to be fallen humanity, and transforms it from within.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because it drastically changes the character of God as revealed by Jesus.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

And this is what these discussions always come down to. The character of God.

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

---

I object to the premise as assuming facts that are most definitely not in evidence.

But to respond to the question- An act of invaluable sacrificial love that is fully accepted by the Trinity, whose imprimatur is then revealed to Creation by the Resurrection.

As for justification as a legal term, law, as humans understand it, is a reflection of divine justice, not the other way around. To make divine justice primarily legal is to subordinate God to a framework external to Himself, which is a category error of the highest order.

Justice fundamentally is giving to each person what is his due. This is a relational and ontological concept long before it is ever a legal one. For God, justice is not conformity to an external law because God does not answer to a law above Himself. God's justice flows from His very nature and we experience it in a limited way as creatures. God is Being itself. He is Goodness itself. His justice is simply the expression of who God is in relation to creation.

The attempt to shoehorn human concepts of legal or forensic justice into a soteriology is frankly at the heart of the matter. It makes God subject to a law outside Himself ("God simply must pour out his wrath upon someone!"). If God must punish sin because a legal code demands it, then that legal code is higher than God. This is theologically absurd based on God's nature. God's nature is the standard, not a courtroom above Him.

As shown above again and again, it fractures the unity of the Trinity. A purely legal framework implies the Father demands punishment and the Son receives it. This introduces tension within God. But the Trinity acts in perfect unity, without any inconsistency or tension. The Son does not appease an angry Father; the entire Godhead acts in one loving will toward redemption.

It reduces salvation to a transaction. If sin is primarily a legal debt and the cross is primarily a payment, then salvation becomes a commercial exchange rather than a healing, a restoration, a participation in divine life. Without diverting down a rabbit trail, theosis is the heart of salvation, not merely being saved from hell. This is exactly why the Eastern tradition and the Catholic tradition at its deepest speaks of salvation as theosis: being transformed into God's likeness, not merely having a legal record cleared.

Finally, it misunderstands what sin actually is. Sin is not merely the breaking of a rule. It's a wound in human nature, a disordering of the will, a rupture in the relationship with God. What sin requires is not merely punishment but healing. Christ comes as the Divine Physician, not only as the condemned substitute.

God's justice is:
Relational - restoring right order between creature and Creator
Ontological - flowing from God's very nature as Truth, Goodness, Beauty and Being
Medicinal - oriented toward healing what sin has broken
Inseparable from love - in God, justice and mercy are not in tension; they are two expressions of the same infinite love.

God's justice is never separated from His mercy. The cross is not God's mercy overcoming His justice. It's God's justice and mercy expressed simultaneously and perfectly in one supreme act of love.

Wanna see the love of the Trinity? Look at Jesus nailed to the cross, writhing in unimaginable, utter agony. This is why Catholics have crucifixes. We proclaim Christ crucified along with St. Paul because it shows us how much we are loved.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

---

I think I know what justice is. And I do not why you have started being snarky with me, I do not think justice is creating people pre ordained to hell. I do not think that is the character of God as revealed in Jesus. And that is where we will never agree. God is just. And full of mercy. And therefore He loves everyone He created, And everybody gets a chance to accept Him and have eternal life in bliss.
This is exactly why CS Lewis rejected Calvinism.
And I am going to take a break again. The tone has gotten too testy for my liking

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

---

I object to the premise as assuming facts that are most definitely not in evidence.

But to respond to the question- An act of invaluable sacrificial love that is fully accepted by the Trinity, whose imprimatur is then revealed to Creation by the Resurrection.

As for justification as a legal term, law, as humans understand it, is a reflection of divine justice, not the other way around. To make divine justice primarily legal is to subordinate God to a framework external to Himself, which is a category error of the highest order.

Justice fundamentally is giving to each person what is his due. This is a relational and ontological concept long before it is ever a legal one. For God, justice is not conformity to an external law because God does not answer to a law above Himself. God's justice flows from His very nature and we experience it in a limited way as creatures. God is Being itself. He is Goodness itself. His justice is simply the expression of who God is in relation to creation.

The attempt to shoehorn human concepts of legal or forensic justice into a soteriology is frankly at the heart of the matter. It makes God subject to a law outside Himself ("God simply must pour out his wrath upon someone!"). If God must punish sin because a legal code demands it, then that legal code is higher than God. This is theologically absurd based on God's nature. God's nature is the standard, not a courtroom above Him.

As shown above again and again, it fractures the unity of the Trinity. A purely legal framework implies the Father demands punishment and the Son receives it. This introduces tension within God. But the Trinity acts in perfect unity, without any inconsistency or tension. The Son does not appease an angry Father; the entire Godhead acts in one loving will toward redemption.

It reduces salvation to a transaction. If sin is primarily a legal debt and the cross is primarily a payment, then salvation becomes a commercial exchange rather than a healing, a restoration, a participation in divine life. Without diverting down a rabbit trail, theosis is the heart of salvation, not merely being saved from hell. This is exactly why the Eastern tradition and the Catholic tradition at its deepest speaks of salvation as theosis: being transformed into God's likeness, not merely having a legal record cleared.

Finally, it misunderstands what sin actually is. Sin is not merely the breaking of a rule. It's a wound in human nature, a disordering of the will, a rupture in the relationship with God. What sin requires is not merely punishment but healing. Christ comes as the Divine Physician, not only as the condemned substitute.

God's justice is:
Relational restoring right order between creature and Creator
Ontological flowing from God's very nature as Truth, Goodness, Beauty and Being
Medicinal oriented toward healing what sin has broken
Inseparable from love in God, justice and mercy are not in tension; they are two expressions of the same infinite love.

God's justice is never separated from His mercy. The cross is not God's mercy overcoming His justice. It's God's justice and mercy expressed simultaneously and perfectly in one supreme act of love.

Wanna see the love of the Trinity? Look at Jesus nailed to the cross, writhing in unimaginable, utter agony. This is why Catholics have crucifixes. We proclaim Christ crucified along with St. Paul because it shows us how much we are loved.

---

Amen and amen. It is like we are worshipping different Gods. And your definition of salvation is spot on. Salvation is ontological not judicial.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

---

Wanna see the love of the Trinity? Look at Jesus nailed to the cross, writhing in unimaginable, utter agony. This is why Catholics have crucifixes. We proclaim Christ crucified along with St. Paul because it shows us how much we are loved.

---

A lot of people were crucified in those days.

What made Christ's crucifixion different (and writhing in unimaginable agony) is the full weight and punishment of sin laid upon him. Yes, the physical death was part of it, but Christ didn't sweat drops of blood in the garden while he was pleading with the Father to take the cup from him because he was about to suffer only physically, like many others who received that death sentence. He knew what he was about to drink.

I have no problem with your crucifixes and proclaiming Christ crucified to remind us of that great love.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

---

I do not think justice is creating people pre ordained to hell.

---

That would not be my definition of justice either.

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

---

I object to the premise as assuming facts that are most definitely not in evidence.

But to respond to the question- An act of invaluable sacrificial love that is fully accepted by the Trinity, whose imprimatur is then revealed to Creation by the Resurrection.

As for justification as a legal term, law, as humans understand it, is a reflection of divine justice, not the other way around. To make divine justice primarily legal is to subordinate God to a framework external to Himself, which is a category error of the highest order.

Justice fundamentally is giving to each person what is his due. This is a relational and ontological concept long before it is ever a legal one. For God, justice is not conformity to an external law because God does not answer to a law above Himself. God's justice flows from His very nature and we experience it in a limited way as creatures. God is Being itself. He is Goodness itself. His justice is simply the expression of who God is in relation to creation.

The attempt to shoehorn human concepts of legal or forensic justice into a soteriology is frankly at the heart of the matter. It makes God subject to a law outside Himself ("God simply must pour out his wrath upon someone!"). If God must punish sin because a legal code demands it, then that legal code is higher than God. This is theologically absurd based on God's nature. God's nature is the standard, not a courtroom above Him.

As shown above again and again, it fractures the unity of the Trinity. A purely legal framework implies the Father demands punishment and the Son receives it. This introduces tension within God. But the Trinity acts in perfect unity, without any inconsistency or tension. The Son does not appease an angry Father; the entire Godhead acts in one loving will toward redemption.

It reduces salvation to a transaction. If sin is primarily a legal debt and the cross is primarily a payment, then salvation becomes a commercial exchange rather than a healing, a restoration, a participation in divine life. Without diverting down a rabbit trail, theosis is the heart of salvation, not merely being saved from hell. This is exactly why the Eastern tradition and the Catholic tradition at its deepest speaks of salvation as theosis: being transformed into God's likeness, not merely having a legal record cleared.

Finally, it misunderstands what sin actually is. Sin is not merely the breaking of a rule. It's a wound in human nature, a disordering of the will, a rupture in the relationship with God. What sin requires is not merely punishment but healing. Christ comes as the Divine Physician, not only as the condemned substitute.

God's justice is:
Relational restoring right order between creature and Creator
Ontological flowing from God's very nature as Truth, Goodness, Beauty and Being
Medicinal oriented toward healing what sin has broken
Inseparable from love in God, justice and mercy are not in tension; they are two expressions of the same infinite love.

God's justice is never separated from His mercy. The cross is not God's mercy overcoming His justice. It's God's justice and mercy expressed simultaneously and perfectly in one supreme act of love.

Wanna see the love of the Trinity? Look at Jesus nailed to the cross, writhing in unimaginable, utter agony. This is why Catholics have crucifixes. We proclaim Christ crucified along with St. Paul because it shows us how much we are loved.

---

Salvation is ontological not judicial.

---

Do you think there will be any judgement on the last day? We are told the Father has given judgement over to Christ.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

---

He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

---

I think I know what justice is. And I do not why you have started being snarky with me

---

Nothing to do with being snarky, I am just getting confused as we use words like "justice" and "judge" and all the sudden all of our human ideas of the justice system no longer apply to it. If anything it probably should have been directed towards FTAC and not you. Scripture has all sorts of descriptions that aid people in understanding in a way we actually live our lives. Some are very outdated obviously. Why is the legal and justice part seem to not apply with how we are being instructed? It feels like the very general definition of "justice" and "judge" have kind of flown out the window here.

This is not attempting to change any ones mind as that rarely happens, but I have been very curious to try to come to some understanding, but it aint happening.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

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He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

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https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

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Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

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Again, thank you!

Also...

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Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

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Agree. God is immutable.

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I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

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I think I know what justice is. And I do not why you have started being snarky with me

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Nothing to do with being snarky, I am just getting confused as we use words like "justice" and "judge" and all the sudden all of our human ideas of the justice system no longer apply to it. If anything it probably should have been directed towards FTAC and not you. Scripture has all sorts of descriptions that aid people in understanding in a way we actually live our lives. Some are very outdated obviously. Why is the legal and justice part seem to not apply with how we are being instructed? It feels like the very general definition of "justice" and "judge" have kind of flown out the window here.

This is not attempting to change any ones mind as that rarely happens, but I have been very curious to try to come to some understanding, but it aint happening.

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And it ain't happening with me on Reformed/Calvinist theology. I just do not get it. So we will leave at that and remain brothers in Christ. Shalom.

Edited to ask if you are an engineer? Love them to death but they sure think differently than me.

Do you mean that? You just said its like we are worshipping different Gods.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Do you mean that? You just said its like we are worshipping different Gods.

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I said that because i can not make sense of your theology. It came from frustration. I will say I read all of your links and Scriptures. I was a little disappointed when you asked me for Scripture references other than 1 Timothy 2 3-4. I have listed Christian universalist scriptures which obviously you never read or even noticed. We just have a total theological disconnect. Thank goodness we both know the Lord.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

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He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

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https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

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Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

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Agree. God is immutable.

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I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

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I object to the premise as assuming facts that are most definitely not in evidence.

But to respond to the question- An act of invaluable sacrificial love that is fully accepted by the Trinity, whose imprimatur is then revealed to Creation by the Resurrection.

As for justification as a legal term, law, as humans understand it, is a reflection of divine justice, not the other way around. To make divine justice primarily legal is to subordinate God to a framework external to Himself, which is a category error of the highest order.

Justice fundamentally is giving to each person what is his due. This is a relational and ontological concept long before it is ever a legal one. For God, justice is not conformity to an external law because God does not answer to a law above Himself. God's justice flows from His very nature and we experience it in a limited way as creatures. God is Being itself. He is Goodness itself. His justice is simply the expression of who God is in relation to creation.

The attempt to shoehorn human concepts of legal or forensic justice into a soteriology is frankly at the heart of the matter. It makes God subject to a law outside Himself ("God simply must pour out his wrath upon someone!"). If God must punish sin because a legal code demands it, then that legal code is higher than God. This is theologically absurd based on God's nature. God's nature is the standard, not a courtroom above Him.

As shown above again and again, it fractures the unity of the Trinity. A purely legal framework implies the Father demands punishment and the Son receives it. This introduces tension within God. But the Trinity acts in perfect unity, without any inconsistency or tension. The Son does not appease an angry Father; the entire Godhead acts in one loving will toward redemption.

It reduces salvation to a transaction. If sin is primarily a legal debt and the cross is primarily a payment, then salvation becomes a commercial exchange rather than a healing, a restoration, a participation in divine life. Without diverting down a rabbit trail, theosis is the heart of salvation, not merely being saved from hell. This is exactly why the Eastern tradition and the Catholic tradition at its deepest speaks of salvation as theosis: being transformed into God's likeness, not merely having a legal record cleared.

Finally, it misunderstands what sin actually is. Sin is not merely the breaking of a rule. It's a wound in human nature, a disordering of the will, a rupture in the relationship with God. What sin requires is not merely punishment but healing. Christ comes as the Divine Physician, not only as the condemned substitute.

God's justice is:
Relational restoring right order between creature and Creator
Ontological flowing from God's very nature as Truth, Goodness, Beauty and Being
Medicinal oriented toward healing what sin has broken
Inseparable from love in God, justice and mercy are not in tension; they are two expressions of the same infinite love.

God's justice is never separated from His mercy. The cross is not God's mercy overcoming His justice. It's God's justice and mercy expressed simultaneously and perfectly in one supreme act of love.

Wanna see the love of the Trinity? Look at Jesus nailed to the cross, writhing in unimaginable, utter agony. This is why Catholics have crucifixes. We proclaim Christ crucified along with St. Paul because it shows us how much we are loved.

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Salvation is ontological not judicial.

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Do you think there will be any judgement on the last day? We are told the Father has given judgement over to Christ.

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Sure. I think we will be judged on how we loved our neighbor and God. And in your theology with unconditional election, hasn't it all already been pre determined? And we have no say?

That is my fault, I just went back and saw a few I had missed from earlier. I am known to look for things that are in our pantry that I cannot find but are right in front of my face.

While I love all the verses you shared, I didn't really see anything that can make the case that hell is refining only.

10andBOUNCE said:

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That is my fault, I just went back and saw a few I had missed from earlier. I am known to look for things that are in our pantry that I cannot find but are right in front of my face.

While I love all the verses you shared, I didn't really see anything that can make the case that hell is refining only.

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Do you understand I am saying it is punishment but for good? I honestly just think we truly believe Scripture confirms our differing theologies. Which to me means we are wired totally different, By God of course. Shalom.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I surely will not pretend to think there was a clear doctrine of PSA prior to the Reformers. There were breadcrumbs before then, however. Of course Scripture itself is the basis.

Is Augustine misspoken here?

Quote:

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He loved us so much that, sinless himself, he suffered for us sinners the punishment we deserved for our sins. How then can he fail to give us the reward we deserve for our righteousness, for he is the source of righteousness?

---

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/hisdeathisourhopegloryaugustine/

---

Augustine: Christ bore the condition of sinners out of love, healing what was broken.
Calvin: God punished Christ in the sinner's place to satisfy divine wrath.

---

Again, thank you!

Also...

---

Because one cannot be fully reconciled with the other.

---

Agree. God is immutable.

---

I of course agree. What happens to satisfy God who is perfectly just?
(Justice is a legal term by the way)

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I do not think justice is creating people pre ordained to hell.

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That would not be my definition of justice either.

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But isn't that what your theology says? Pre destined from before time to heaven or ECT hell? If not, what is your theology saying? If you can explain what I am missing I would love to hear it.

And the parable of the sheep and goats, the rich man and Lazarus, etc. are pretty clear about what we will be judged on.

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And the parable of the sheep and goats, the rich man and Lazarus, etc. are pretty clear about what we will be judged on.

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Harrumph!!!