dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

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No my friend. God is love. Sometimes I almost think some want people to go to "Hell". And I believe Edwards thought that also.

And that would definitely not be Orthodox.

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God is love but he's also many other things.

Was it love when Uzzah touched the ark and immediately died?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

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You asked any Orthodox folks about that?

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Maybe not "orthodox" by their flawed reasoning but orthodox in the true sense of what it is supposed to be.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

---

No my friend. God is love. Sometimes I almost think some want people to go to "Hell". And I believe Edwards thought that also.

And that would definitely not be Orthodox.

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God is love but he's also many other things.

Was it love when Uzzah touched the ark and immediately died?

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Was there any reference to Uzzah going to ECT hell? Huge difference. God can do what He wants. ECT hell is not what He wants. Wages of sin is death is one thing. ECT hell is another.
You want to
Concentrate on God's wrath which is true. But ultimately God is love. Remember that as you raise your kids.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Quote:

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Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation.

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I'm no sure if that is the case:

Quote:

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Colossians 1:20 (NIV): "...and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross".
Romans 5:18 (NIV): "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people".
1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV): "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive".
Philippians 2:10-11 (NIV): "...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord...".
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV): "...He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".

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Only He knows, ultimately, but I strongly empathize with Derm's position on this.

I'm mostly persuaded to the idea of a postmortem burning away of impurities that belief in Christ can allow you to bypass. But, the notion of ultimate reconciliation fits quite well with my conceptualizaion of the Divine Father.

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The Colossians verse does not speak to eternal consequences for non-believers one way or another.

The 2 Peter verse states that God is patient because he wants everybody to come to repentance. That does not mean everybody will, and the implication is that those who do not will perish.

The 1 Corinthians verse states that in Christ all will be made alive. It does not say all will be made alive, including those who rejected Christ.

The Philippians verse also doesnt have anything to do with the fate of non-believers after death. All people will know and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord upon death, including those who rejected him in life.

If you're a Christian, I would recommend going by what Jesus says:

John 3:16 (NIV): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Matthew 25:46 (NIV): "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 18:8 (NIV): "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."

Matthew 25:41 (NIV): "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Directed at unbelievers).

Matthew 10:28 (NIV): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:42 (NIV): "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 7:13 (NIV): "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Matthew 7:19 (NIV): "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Luke 13:3 (NIV): "But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

John 3:18 (NIV): "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 8:24 (NIV): "If you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

Mark 9:43 (NIV): "It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

Jesus speaks clearly, and repeatedly, of "perishing," "eternal fire," "eternal punishment," "destruction," "condemnation," and "death" for those who reject God. These are not temporary. They are permanent.

AozorAg said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Quote:

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Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation.

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I'm no sure if that is the case:

Quote:

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Colossians 1:20 (NIV): "...and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross".
Romans 5:18 (NIV): "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people".
1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV): "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive".
Philippians 2:10-11 (NIV): "...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord...".
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV): "...He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".

---

Only He knows, ultimately, but I strongly empathize with Derm's position on this.

I'm mostly persuaded to the idea of a postmortem burning away of impurities that belief in Christ can allow you to bypass. But, the notion of ultimate reconciliation fits quite well with my conceptualizaion of the Divine Father.

---

The Colossians verse does not speak to eternal consequences for non-believers one way or another.

The 2 Peter verse states that God is patient because he wants everybody to come to repentance. That does not mean everybody will, and the implication is that those who do not will perish.

The 1 Corinthians verse states that in Christ all will be made alive. It does not say all will be made alive, including those who rejected Christ.

The Philippians verse also doesnt have anything to do with the fate of non-believers after death. All people will know and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord upon death, including those who rejected him in life.

If you're a Christian, I would recommend going by what Jesus says:

John 3:16 (NIV): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Matthew 25:46 (NIV): "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 18:8 (NIV): "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."

Matthew 25:41 (NIV): "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Directed at unbelievers).

Matthew 10:28 (NIV): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:42 (NIV): "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 7:13 (NIV): "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Matthew 7:19 (NIV): "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Luke 13:3 (NIV): "But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

John 3:18 (NIV): "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 8:24 (NIV): "If you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

Mark 9:43 (NIV): "It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

Jesus speaks clearly, and repeatedly, of "perishing," "eternal fire," "eternal punishment," "destruction," "condemnation," and "death" for those who reject God. These are not temporary. They are permanent.

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Everything you posted does no talk about eternal punishment. Except maybe Matthew 25 46. That is the lynchpin for ECT hell.

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light_bulb said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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light_bulb said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

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Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

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I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

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And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

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I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

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You lose at the words "I don't think".

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I have no idea what you are saying.

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You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

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He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

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To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

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First of all, define hell.

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If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

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Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

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Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

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You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

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Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

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You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

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Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

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Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

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I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

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3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

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I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

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Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

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First, Jesus talks about eternal punishment, and hell specifically. I would prioritize that over what Paul says.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so focused on Acts.

Philippians 3:1819: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

2 Thessalonians 1:89: "[He will come in] flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction"

Ephesians 5:56: "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

Paul makes quite clear that those who reject God will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be eternally destroyed.

Again, I don't agree with annihilationism, but I can understand why some people subscribe to it because there are passages that talk about destruction and death as opposed to eternal punishment. Either way, whatever the consequence is for rejecting God, scripture (including both Jesus and Paul) makes abundantly clear that it is permanent, not a temporary corrective process that ends up at the same place as salvation through Christ.

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Every verse you mentioned talks of eternal destruction. And it is all salvation through Christ.

Scripture is much more affirmative on
Annihilationism and ultimate reconciliation than ECT hell.

And can I get a link where Paul mentioned ECT hell? Or any of the apostles in Acts?

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Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation. You are twisting it to your own end of desiring ultimate reconciliation.

You seem not to be reading what I'm saying. I've already stated that I think annihilationism is a justifiable position even though I don't agree with it. Paul does talk more in terms of annihilationism. I'm not going to look up verses where the apostles talk about eternal torment in hell because Jesus himself talks about it, and that's infinitely superior.

My point is that, whether it's eternal torment or actual spiritual death, the apostles and Jesus all agree that the consequence for rejecting God is PERMAMENT. Ultimate reconciliation is not biblical. If you were relying on Jesus and the apostles for your position on what happens when somebody who has rejected God dies, I don't think you could possibly believe in ultimate reconciliation.

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Link to where eternal destination is permanent in Scripture. Do you believe Christ harrowed "Hell"? And sorry but it is possible I believe in ultimate reconciliation.

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All of the verses I've quoted to you in this thread, which is about 20, from both Jesus and Paul. Go back and read them. And there are many more. If you don't want to read them or believe them, I can't make you.

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Do you really think I have not read those? Like a thousand times.

We disagree and that's fine. Nobody is going to "hell"!(as much as you might want it) because of our "Hell" theology.

And seriously, why is ECT hell so important to you? Jesus talked very sparingly abut hell. Or heaven.

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What an absurd accusation. I don't want anyone to go to hell, and neither should you. That's why it's important for us, as believers, to acknowledge the permanence of the consequences for rejecting God. If you advertise that people who reject God will just go through some kind of temporary discomfort and corrective process before getting into heaven anyway, what you are broadcasting to non-believers is that they are free to reject God (and Jesus) in this life because the consequences are temporary, and they'll reach heaven regardless. That is simply antithetical to the core tenets of Christianity and contrary to what Jesus himself states over and over in every translation of the Bible.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

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No my friend. God is love. Sometimes I almost think some want people to go to "Hell". And I believe Edwards thought that also.

And that would definitely not be Orthodox.

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God is love but he's also many other things.

Was it love when Uzzah touched the ark and immediately died?

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Was there any reference to Uzzah going to ECT hell? Huge difference. God can do what He wants. ECT hell is not what He wants. Wages of sin is death is one thing. ECT hell is another.
You want to
Concentrate on God's wrath which is true. But ultimately Fod is love. Remember that as you raise your kids.

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I tell my son often of God's love but also tell of his just wrath as Romans 1:18 says. To not tell the whole picture would be unloving of me.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

---

No my friend. God is love. Sometimes I almost think some want people to go to "Hell". And I believe Edwards thought that also.

And that would definitely not be Orthodox.

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God is love but he's also many other things.

Was it love when Uzzah touched the ark and immediately died?

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Was there any reference to Uzzah going to ECT hell? Huge difference. God can do what He wants. ECT hell is not what He wants. Wages of sin is death is one thing. ECT hell is another.
You want to
Concentrate on God's wrath which is true. But ultimately Fod is love. Remember that as you raise your kids.

---

I tell my son often of God's love but also tell of his just wrath as Romans 1:18 says. To not tell the whole picture would be unloving of me.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

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Wrath is one thing. And as a loving father, I have done that. ECT hell, especially pre ordained, is another thing. And something I would never do to to my child.

If I believed as you, I would never have had kids if there was even a chance they could end up in ECT hell. And I would wish I had never been born to miss that possible agony.
In fact, I wish I had been aborted. No way I miss heaven then.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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For the most part, that is the perfect description of American evangelicalism

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Shoot I thought the way was narrow…. Universalism sounds pretty nifty

How dare you quote scripture!! You should be basing your theology on how you feel emotionally, not on what Jesus says the overwhelming majority of Church leaders have affirmed for two thousand years!

But I guess if we're going to be logical, I'll once again present Matthew 25:46. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

TeddyAg0422 said:

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How dare you quote scripture!! You should be basing your theology on how you feel emotionally, not on what Jesus says the overwhelming majority of Church leaders have affirmed for two thousand years!

But I guess if we're going to be logical, I'll once again present Matthew 25:46. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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This isn't an accurate portrayal of the historical veracity or complexity of the argument. Augustine, who himself argued for ECT, freely acknowledged that "very many" early church fathers disagreed with him.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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How dare you quote scripture!! You should be basing your theology on how you feel emotionally, not on what Jesus says the overwhelming majority of Church leaders have affirmed for two thousand years!

But I guess if we're going to be logical, I'll once again present Matthew 25:46. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Just curious, did you even look up the original Greek for the word kolasis which is the word translated by most, not all, for punishment. Or aioniosis, which is the word translated by most, but not all for eternal?

And as far as quoting Scripture

God desires to save everyone (Roman 11:32; I Timothy 2 3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)

God is sovereign (Jeremiah 33:17; Luke 1:37; Romans 9; Ephesians 1:11)

Jesus is the savior of all (John 1:7; 12-32; Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; Hebrews 2:9

Jesus is the savior of non believers in addition to believers (1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2)

God must become all in all (1 Corinthians 15: 23-28)

God punishes for correction (Deut 8:5; Job 5: 17-18; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Revelation 3:19; Hebrews 12)

There will be evangelism in hell (Revelation 22:2,17)

All will eventually accept Jesus as Lord (Isaiah 45:22-25; Phil 2:10-11; Revelation 5:13)

And there are more if you are truly interested. A good resource is tentmakers.org.

May God bless you as you read His Word.

Shalom.

Oh, and anyone who knows me would find it hilarious that you believe I base things on feelings and emotions. Especially fellow doctors. That is for liberals and I am definitely not one.

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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If I believed as you, I would never have had kids if there was even a chance they could end up in ECT hell. And I would wish I had never been born to miss that possible agony.
In fact, I wish I had been aborted. No way I miss heaven then.

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Simply put… you are stuck in your own feelings, all scripture be damned.

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No, I researched a lot of Scripture. In my opinion, there is much more Scriptural support for annihilationism and ultimate reconciliation than ECT hell.

And I have spent years studying this. It is not based on feelings. Just honest searching. I think it is somewhat insulting to imply that ultimate reconciliation proponents are basing their conclusions on emotions and feelings. These are smart, well read folks.

If you are really interested, I suggest checking out tentmakers.org for Scriptural references and articles.

Silent For Too Long said:

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TeddyAg0422 said:

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How dare you quote scripture!! You should be basing your theology on how you feel emotionally, not on what Jesus says the overwhelming majority of Church leaders have affirmed for two thousand years!

But I guess if we're going to be logical, I'll once again present Matthew 25:46. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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This isn't an accurate portrayal of the historical veracity or complexity of the argument. Augustine, who himself argued for ECT, freely acknowledged that "very many" early church fathers disagreed with him.

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Exactly. I really wish some of the Christians with different views than me would read one of the books I linked. Or do a little Google searching on ultimate reconciliation in the early church. I highly recommend the web site tentmakers.org for Scriptural references and articles. You may or may not come to the same conclusion as I did. Which is fine.

Scripture does not say hell theology, or thank goodness any theology other than the simple Gospel, determines salvation.

And I truly wish everyone could have the peace and joy I have found with Christ in me. The best life ever!

Also since I have realized how good God really is and how much He loves me and every person He created, I have been much more vocal about my faith. Pray with a lot of patients daily. Have Bibles and Max Lucado tracts in the waiting room. And I love going to work. Serving the Lord is fun!

I want to reiterate the crux of this is centered upon the (completely unsupported) assumption that in the life of the age to come we will experience time the same way we do now (ie a succession of moments). We experience time because we can change; mortality is a part of that changeability. The fathers say when we die we can no longer repent. I read that as due to no longer being able to or subject to change as we do and are now. So, it would seem experience of time would be accordingly different.

Zobel said:

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I want to reiterate the crux of this is centered upon the (completely unsupported) assumption that in the life of the age to come we will experience time the same way we do now (ie a succession of moments). We experience time because we can change; mortality is a part of that changeability. The fathers say when we die we can no longer repent. I read that as due to no longer being able to or subject to change as we do and are now. So, it would seem experience of time would be accordingly different.

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Agree. I believe the Orthodox view is that we should hope for the salvation of all. And that all people are in the presence of the Lord. For those who know and love the Lord it is bliss. For those who don't it is torment.

I don't know that that necessarily helps in any way. To experience thought is to experience time Or causation in some way. Are heaven and hell thoughtless, experienced? If there is any equivalent then the arguments hold once again and if there isn't the idea of existence at all is highly questionable.

The ignores also the idea of afterlife as described in the early church is that of physical resurrection. So this weird timeless state is at best temporary and we are back where we started argument wise.

Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

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That's easy. I get in. Once with God, we will be totally fulfilled. There will no grief, sorrow, or missing loved ones. We will want for nothing. As important as loved ones are in this life, they aren't even comparable to being with God for eternity. If you're a Christian that's honestly a bizarre question to ask.

dermdoc said:

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TeddyAg0422 said:

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How dare you quote scripture!! You should be basing your theology on how you feel emotionally, not on what Jesus says the overwhelming majority of Church leaders have affirmed for two thousand years!

But I guess if we're going to be logical, I'll once again present Matthew 25:46. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Just curious, did you even look up the original Greek for the word kolasis which is the word translated by most, not all, for punishment. Or aioniosis, which is the word translated by most, but not all for eternal?

And as far as quoting Scripture

God desires to save everyone (Roman 11:32; I Timothy 2 3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)

God is sovereign (Jeremiah 33:17; Luke 1:37; Romans 9; Ephesians 1:11)

Jesus is the savior of all (John 1:7; 12-32; Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; Hebrews 2:9

Jesus is the savior of non believers in addition to believers (1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2)

God must become all in all (1 Corinthians 15: 23-28)

God punishes for correction (Deut 8:5; Job 5: 17-18; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Revelation 3:19; Hebrews 12)

There will be evangelism in hell (Revelation 22:2,17)

All will eventually accept Jesus as Lord (Isaiah 45:22-25; Phil 2:10-11; Revelation 5:13)

And there are more if you are truly interested. A good resource is tentmakers.org.

May God bless you as you read His Word.

Shalom.

Oh, and anyone who knows me would find it hilarious that you believe I base things on feelings and emotions. Especially fellow doctors. That is for liberals and I am definitely not one.

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You have to ignore the direct teachings of Jesus in order to reach the conclusion that all people eventually go to heaven no matter what.

Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

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Where did that question come from??

88Warrior said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

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Where did that question come from??

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Curiosity?

AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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TeddyAg0422 said:

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How dare you quote scripture!! You should be basing your theology on how you feel emotionally, not on what Jesus says the overwhelming majority of Church leaders have affirmed for two thousand years!

But I guess if we're going to be logical, I'll once again present Matthew 25:46. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

---

Just curious, did you even look up the original Greek for the word kolasis which is the word translated by most, not all, for punishment. Or aioniosis, which is the word translated by most, but not all for eternal?

And as far as quoting Scripture

God desires to save everyone (Roman 11:32; I Timothy 2 3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)

God is sovereign (Jeremiah 33:17; Luke 1:37; Romans 9; Ephesians 1:11)

Jesus is the savior of all (John 1:7; 12-32; Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; Hebrews 2:9

Jesus is the savior of non believers in addition to believers (1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2)

God must become all in all (1 Corinthians 15: 23-28)

God punishes for correction (Deut 8:5; Job 5: 17-18; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Revelation 3:19; Hebrews 12)

There will be evangelism in hell (Revelation 22:2,17)

All will eventually accept Jesus as Lord (Isaiah 45:22-25; Phil 2:10-11; Revelation 5:13)

And there are more if you are truly interested. A good resource is tentmakers.org.

May God bless you as you read His Word.

Shalom.

Oh, and anyone who knows me would find it hilarious that you believe I base things on feelings and emotions. Especially fellow doctors. That is for liberals and I am definitely not one.

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You have to ignore the direct teachings of Jesus in order to reach the conclusion that all people eventually go to heaven no matter what.

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Disagree. Did you read any of the Scriptures I linked? Did you at least look at the meaning of kolasis and timoria?

And I guess you think St. Gregory, who was
considered one of the greatest theologians ever and believed in ultimate reconciliation, ignored the teachings of Jesus?
I am not saying you are wrong. And I could be. But you are making some pretty strong accusations which I believe are false.

And you don't have to read anything I linked or look up the Greek words I mentioned.

But at least give me the courtesy of reading or looking at something before making some pretty damning accusations. The Scriptures I posted are from the Bible just like you use. Thank you.

And for what's worth "heaven" or paradise is the intermediate state before Christ returns and we get our new bodies and live with Him forever in the New Jerusalem on the new earth.

AozorAg said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

---

That's easy. I get in. Once with God, we will be totally fulfilled. There will no grief, sorrow, or missing loved ones. We will want for nothing. As important as loved ones are in this life, they aren't even comparable to being with God for eternity. If you're a Christian that's honestly a bizarre question to ask.

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Is it?

Quote:

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John 15:13 (NIV): "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends".

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Quote:

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1 Corinthians 10:24 (ESV): "Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor".

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AozorAg said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

---

That's easy. I get in. Once with God, we will be totally fulfilled. There will no grief, sorrow, or missing loved ones. We will want for nothing. As important as loved ones are in this life, they aren't even comparable to being with God for eternity. If you're a Christian that's honestly a bizarre question to ask.

---

Do you always judge other Christian's faith? Seems like a pattern.

The fruits of the Spirit are peace, joy, love, patience, kindness, meekness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control.

I meditate on those all the time.

dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

---

That's easy. I get in. Once with God, we will be totally fulfilled. There will no grief, sorrow, or missing loved ones. We will want for nothing. As important as loved ones are in this life, they aren't even comparable to being with God for eternity. If you're a Christian that's honestly a bizarre question to ask.

---

Do you always judge other Christian's faith? Seems like a pattern.

The fruits of the Spirit are peace, joy, love, patience, kindness, meekness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control.

I meditate on those all the time.

---

I'm not judging, and haven't judged, your faith or anyone's faith. I said it's a bizarre question if you're a Christian. I haven't judged whether he is or is not a Christian.

Silent For Too Long said:

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AozorAg said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

---

That's easy. I get in. Once with God, we will be totally fulfilled. There will no grief, sorrow, or missing loved ones. We will want for nothing. As important as loved ones are in this life, they aren't even comparable to being with God for eternity. If you're a Christian that's honestly a bizarre question to ask.

---

Is it?

Quote:

---

John 15:13 (NIV): "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends".

---

Quote:

---

1 Corinthians 10:24 (ESV): "Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor".

---

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Those are great verses that are relevant during a person's life. They have no application after death.

Condemning yourself to hell for all eternity cannot be in any way equated to dying for a friend in this life or seeking the good of others in this life. If that's what you're getting at, then I guess I just have to reject your hypothetical entirely because it's both impossible and utterly nonsensical. Hypotheticals can certainly be useful for exploring and testing the validity of arguments, but not when the hypothetical itself is absurd, which this one is.

Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

---

Again, there is no "traditional' understanding of the nature of the punishment (which you have called torture). There have many disagreements. The only formal teaching of the church is the eternal aspect of that status in the afterlife.

So if all of my loved ones are left out, I believe it's because they wanted to be left out. I know I was questioned on this earlier, but we have myriad examples here in this life of people intentionally choosing not to do what they know is objectively good for them. I have no solid reason to believe it will happen after this life.

That is one acceptable view of the nature of the "punishment". There are other views that can be held without veering from orthodoxy. "Assured Universalism" has been condemned by the ancient churches, so that's one I can't get on board with. Best you can get to is "hopeful universalism", but for me there is enough evidence that no matter what evidence they are presented with, some people will never abandon their autonomy to follow God's will

AozorAg said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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AozorAg said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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For those of you holding to the traditional understanding of eternal torture, I have a curious hypothetical.

Let's say you get to the pearly gates and St. Peter gave you an option. You get in, but everyone you have ever loved is left out, or vice versa....what would you choose?

---

That's easy. I get in. Once with God, we will be totally fulfilled. There will no grief, sorrow, or missing loved ones. We will want for nothing. As important as loved ones are in this life, they aren't even comparable to being with God for eternity. If you're a Christian that's honestly a bizarre question to ask.

---

Is it?

Quote:

---

John 15:13 (NIV): "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends".

---

Quote:

---

1 Corinthians 10:24 (ESV): "Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor".

---

---

Those are great verses that are relevant during a person's life. They have no application after death.

Condemning yourself to hell for all eternity cannot be in any way equated to dying for a friend in this life or seeking the good of others in this life. If that's what you're getting at, then I guess I just have to reject your hypothetical entirely because it's both impossible and utterly nonsensical. Hypotheticals can certainly be useful for exploring and testing the validity of arguments, but not when the hypothetical itself is absurd, which this one is.

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Agreed…it was a nonsensical question…

There is nothing absurd about it. It is the trolley problem writ large.

If you don't want to wrestle with bigger and deeper questions I'm honestly not sure why you are posting on the Religion and Philosophy board to begin with.