AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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TeddyAg0422 said:

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God also desired Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree, yet they did

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Good point. And indicates man can choose to reject God. I guess that would be "hell" as God is all good. But that is a far different concept from the ECT hell I was taught in Sunday school. Or read in Dante or Milton.

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I see you're still in here strawmanning. Very few people in this thread, if any, have argued that hell is eternal conscious torment. What we've argued is that, whatever the consequences for rejecting God are, they are eternal. Not everyone gets into heaven. The fact that you keep redirecting the argument to be about eternal conscious torment when nobody is arguing that is confirmation that you've realized you are wrong about everyone getting into heaven.

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Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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Dwight Lyman Moody, perhaps the greatest evangelist in America believed in ECT. He was once said to have been at a table of believers talking about hell in a casual and nonchalant manner. He looked straight into their faces and said, "Gentlemen, the next time you speak of hell, it is my hope you will do so with tears in your eyes".

https://www.jesussite.com/resources/articles-papers/hell

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dermdoc said:

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Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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Dwight Lyman Moody, perhaps the greatest evangelist in America believed in ECT. He was once said to have been at a table of believers talking about hell in a casual and nonchalant manner. He looked straight into their faces and said, "Gentlemen, the next time you speak of hell, it is my hope you will do so with tears in your eyes".

https://www.jesussite.com/resources/articles-papers/hell

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And yet the apostles never mentioned hell in the Acts of the Apostles. And obviously, you are an infernalist, correct?

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

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There's a lot of presuppositions in your post. I will just say Matt 22:1-14 stands out to me as more than exclusion from a feast. That's if we're just skimming parables to see if Christ says anything about judgment, and assuming he's creating a theological treatise from which to build an eschatological framework (which He isn't, so this isn't the way to evaluate claims of hell imo).

That said, the safer spiritual exercise is to leave judgment in his purview. There is a lake of fire for Sheol and demons. If we become more godly by participating in His works, and more demonic by participating in theirs, why wouldn't some end up there?

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Agree on leaving it to God. And there is obviously punishment. Scripture says God is love and desires to save all.

i am not God and obviously His ways are above ours. The problem is with the concept of eternal conscious punishment. What sin would deserve that? How is that love? Or couple with a desire to save all?

And as I have stated, to my knowledge Matt 25:46 is the only Scripture that possibly mentions eternal punishment. And that is a very disputed translation.

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You keep saying "eternal conscious punishment/torment". Is the only torment or punishment the type where God is actively applying it? Can the torment not be the personal distress over the state one finds themselves in (separation from God)?

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AginKS said:

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The reason I don't believe in unlimited Atonement; or that Christ died for every human: is because I don't believe God; as a holy and righteous judge, would engage in "double jeopardy." IF Christ paid for the sins of the entire world throughout history, then punishment of hell for any human would be unjust and immoral. However, we know for a fact human souls go to hell (verses listed below). Therefore, particular (limited) Atonement is moral, just and Scripturally supported with verses I've listed previously.

As for hell, there plenty of verses throughout Scripture stating it's eternal, those there are conscious, and it's a torment. It's intellectually dishonest to say otherwise. Does God send them there? Scripture makes it abundantly clear He does. Does He create people to go to hell? That's something I/we don't know.
Isaiah 66:24 (God speaking about those who rebel against Him)
Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. Matthew alone recorded that Jesus talked about hell at several significant times, including Matthew 5:21-26, 7:13-14, 8:12, 13:2430, 36-43, 13: 4752, 16:13-20, 18:1-9, 22:1-14, 25:14-30, and 25:31-46.
Mark 9:47-48
Luke 12:5; 12:46; 13:27; 16:23-24 & 26;
Colossians 1:21-22
2 Thessalonians 1:9
2 Peter 2:4, 3:9
Jude 1:7 & 12-13,
Revelation 1:18, 20:14-15, 14:10 -11; 21:8; 20:10

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Quote:

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I might add, we have a Calvinist on here saying that I am committing slander by saying Washer, Lawson, and Sproul are/were Calvinists.

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dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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The reason I don't believe in unlimited Atonement; or that Christ died for every human: is because I don't believe God; as a holy and righteous judge, would engage in "double jeopardy." IF Christ paid for the sins of the entire world throughout history, then punishment of hell for any human would be unjust and immoral. However, we know for a fact human souls go to hell (verses listed below). Therefore, particular (limited) Atonement is moral, just and Scripturally supported with verses I've listed previously.

As for hell, there plenty of verses throughout Scripture stating it's eternal, those there are conscious, and it's a torment. It's intellectually dishonest to say otherwise. Does God send them there? Scripture makes it abundantly clear He does. Does He create people to go to hell? That's something I/we don't know.
Isaiah 66:24 (God speaking about those who rebel against Him)
Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. Matthew alone recorded that Jesus talked about hell at several significant times, including Matthew 5:21-26, 7:13-14, 8:12, 13:2430, 36-43, 13: 4752, 16:13-20, 18:1-9, 22:1-14, 25:14-30, and 25:31-46.
Mark 9:47-48
Luke 12:5; 12:46; 13:27; 16:23-24 & 26;
Colossians 1:21-22
2 Thessalonians 1:9
2 Peter 2:4, 3:9
Jude 1:7 & 12-13,
Revelation 1:18, 20:14-15, 14:10 -11; 21:8; 20:10

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Did you read any of the Christian Universalism verses I posted? And don't lie please. In fact, I would bet nobody on here has read the verses I posted or any of the links.

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Zobel said:

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I'm not an Armenian.

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Zobel said:

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AginKS said:

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The reason I don't believe in unlimited Atonement; or that Christ died for every human: is because I don't believe God; as a holy and righteous judge, would engage in "double jeopardy." IF Christ paid for the sins of the entire world throughout history, then punishment of hell for any human would be unjust and immoral. However, we know for a fact human souls go to hell (verses listed below). Therefore, particular (limited) Atonement is moral, just and Scripturally supported with verses I've listed previously.

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This is some crazy stuff man.

On the face this is circular reasoning by assuming atonement automatically cancels sin-debt for everyone covered, then declares hell unjust if anyone is punished which is just using limited atonement's own definition to "prove" limited atonement.

But also imposes human logic on God by assuming double jeopardy (a human legal principle) as binding on divine justice, assuming God "shouldn't" allow provisional payment for all while still punishing unbelievers.

And you here define atonement narrowly as payment, assuming again your own theology. Here atonement is strictly automatic, unconditional debt cancellation rather than covering, expiation, or provision applied conditionally through faith. So begging the question.

You skip by conditional application, where Christ's death is sufficient for all but taken hold of only by the faithful. In that framework unbelief leaves sins unpaid, so hell isn't double punishment, it's punishment for unatoned sin.

The argument is inconsistent even on its own terms as this view of limited atonement struggles with the same "delay" issue (elect under wrath pre-faith) but doesn't apply its strict payment logic consistently.

But the biggest concern by far is the use of human intuitions about justice over or ignoring scriptural language of provision, conditional forgiveness, and multi-faceted atonement terms (covering, expiation, propitiation).

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Zobel said:

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Autocorrect typo, but I'm neither.

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AginKS said:

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Quote:

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I might add, we have a Calvinist on here saying that I am committing slander by saying Washer, Lawson, and Sproul are/were Calvinists.

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Nope, you said that it's "only Calvinists who preach ECT.." to why I say is wrong because Catholics, EO, Anglicans, CoE, and Lutherans all do as well. My statement of labeling your comment as slanderous had nothing to do with Washer, Lawson, and RC Sproul; all of whom I acknowledged as Calvinists and preach ECT - as the Christian church has for 2000 years, but with your saying it's ONLY Calvinists.

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dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

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He may not be but there are a lot of pastors, especially of the Calvinist bent, who preach that. Jonathan Edwards was the model for that.

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Wrong. Jonathan Edwards understood what hell is: eternal separation from God.
I'm a Calvinist and understand Romans 1:18-31 to say hell where the souls of those who are/were self-decieved and decievwd others being stubbornly unrepentant for their sins go.. since God also clearly states, "vengeance is Mine." Also " Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Hell is everyone's default destination if not for the grace of God by sending His Son, His work on the cross and saving us from that eternal separation from Himself.

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Have you read Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God? Do you believe a loving God who created every person would hold them like a spider over the forest of hell? Have you read what Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, R C Sproul have said about God actively administering the punishment? Washer said that we believers and all of creation would applaud watching the damned go to ECT hell.

There is much more than eternal separation being preached by these guys. Who are all Calvinists.

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First, no they aren't all Calvinsts; simply slander to say it is.
Secondly, apparently you don't understand what true separation from God really is or haven't thought about it too deeply. If you think the world is bad currently (or has been historically - think of the hedonism of S&G or Rome): those are/were picnics compared to what man can sink to if unrestrained by God. Therefore, separation from Him is ECT hell.

And yes, I have read "Sinners in the Hands Of An Angry God" as part of my studies. Modern ears cringe at the idea that God is sovereign, righteous, just and holy and; as such, is 100% morally, ethically, and just to be wrathful towards sin and those steadfastly refuse to repent and ask forgiveness.

To those who say Calvinism is demonic, I'd say Arminianism is since it seeks to indebt God to each person for making their (correct) decision - while simultaneously they are dead (spiritually) in their trespasses of sin. Arminians won't admit this, but this decision/work is exactly what it logically works out to be.
It also makes man the determining factor of who is saved which is in direct opposition to Ephesians 1:3-6, "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
As can be seen, God adopts us - not the other way around - and He did so before the world was created.

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Google search says Washer, Lawson, and the late RC Sproul were all Calvinists. Are they committing slander also? This is strange.

And seems prideful to me to suggest the reason I don't believe as you is because I have not thought about it "too deeply". Or do not understand what "separation" from God means. If you are a pastor, you might choose your words more carefully.

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dermdoc said:

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TeddyAg0422 said:

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How dare you quote scripture!! You should be basing your theology on how you feel emotionally, not on what Jesus says the overwhelming majority of Church leaders have affirmed for two thousand years!

But I guess if we're going to be logical, I'll once again present Matthew 25:46. "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Just curious, did you even look up the original Greek for the word kolasis which is the word translated by most, not all, for punishment. Or aioniosis, which is the word translated by most, but not all for eternal?

And as far as quoting Scripture

God desires to save everyone (Roman 11:32; I Timothy 2 3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)

God is sovereign (Jeremiah 33:17; Luke 1:37; Romans 9; Ephesians 1:11)

Jesus is the savior of all (John 1:7; 12-32; Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; Hebrews 2:9

Jesus is the savior of non believers in addition to believers (1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2)

God must become all in all (1 Corinthians 15: 23-28)

God punishes for correction (Deut 8:5; Job 5: 17-18; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Revelation 3:19; Hebrews 12)

There will be evangelism in hell (Revelation 22:2,17)

All will eventually accept Jesus as Lord (Isaiah 45:22-25; Phil 2:10-11; Revelation 5:13)

And there are more if you are truly interested. A good resource is tentmakers.org.

May God bless you as you read His Word.

Shalom.

Oh, and anyone who knows me would find it hilarious that you believe I base things on feelings and emotions. Especially fellow doctors. That is for liberals and I am definitely not one.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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A lot of your Pauline texts, from my understanding, are using "all" to show the inclusion of the gentiles being grafted into the promise that had been only given to Israel. Not literally every single human being.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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It is getting better. I need to find a priest to present myself and be deemed clean.

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dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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Quote:

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I might add, we have a Calvinist on here saying that I am committing slander by saying Washer, Lawson, and Sproul are/were Calvinists.

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Nope, you said that it's "only Calvinists who preach ECT.." to why I say is wrong because Catholics, EO, Anglicans, CoE, and Lutherans all do as well. My statement of labeling your comment as slanderous had nothing to do with Washer, Lawson, and RC Sproul; all of whom I acknowledged as Calvinists and preach ECT - as the Christian church has for 2000 years, but with your saying it's ONLY Calvinists.

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I just re read the whole thread and I never said it's only Calvinists who preach ECT hell. And granted, I only listed Calvinist preachers and you posted they were not. Maybe you meant differently but here is your post.

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