Just making sure I am going about this the proper way using the below example...

Article 2 THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
I. The Apostolic Tradition

The only scripture references given in the catechism are below. I see that it also references DV 7 and 8; Assume that is some kind of council written in modern times?

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16:15
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Just making sure I am going about this the proper way using the below example...

Article 2 THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
I. The Apostolic Tradition

The only scripture references given in the catechism are below. I see that it also references DV 7 and 8; Assume that is some kind of council written in modern times?

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16:15
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

---

DV is Dei Verbum, which was one of several documents promulgated by Vatican II.

I simply searched for "authority" and got the following:

https://www.catholiccrossreference.online/catechism/#!/search/Authority

I would also add Matthew 16:18-20.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

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If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

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Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

dermdoc said:

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dermdoc said:

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And I still pray daily for you and your pastor who had the problem. How is that going?

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https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

Is this the guy? Wow. He really needs prayer for a lot of stuff not just the accusations. And how can you preach this stuff and do what he did? Does he not realize that he could be talking about himself in hell? I guess he figures he is one of the "elect" and is saved no matter what.

Where was that type of preaching ever used in the New Testament? It is not found in Acts. Paul and Peter never preached like this. Who does this guy think he is? Where are the fruits of the spirit?

"This may shock you, but God will be in hell, and he will be the one inflicting the wrath".

So in his Calvinist double predestination theology, God not only creates people doomed to eternal torment but also administers the punishment Himself.

Please explore Orthodox/Catholic theology. This is Satanic.

And even though it seems this guy has done some bad things, I do not wish his version of hell on anyone. Even him.

I forgive him for whatever he did, wonder if he would forgive me if I did the same?

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Yeah, I have not been able to find much information until this past weekend. In an article I read this past weekend, per a pastor who has been close with him, sounds like there has been repentance and understanding he is disqualified from any future ministerial position as well as a willingness to make a public statement regarding his current state. However, his counselors are advising against it. Supposedly they are trying to find some middle ground in order to do something public. Basically, who knows at the end of the day, except for God.

I am aware of his fiery (no pun intended as it relates to that article) disposition at times; I read through quickly what you sent but would like to look it over another time or two. End times is something I have not spent a lot of time on personally, but I would imagine his overall views are going to be in line generally with some of the ministries I would typically use. Not sure all would endorse some of the brazen word choices that were cited in that article.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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dermdoc said:

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And I still pray daily for you and your pastor who had the problem. How is that going?

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https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

Is this the guy? Wow. He really needs prayer for a lot of stuff not just the accusations. And how can you preach this stuff and do what he did? Does he not realize that he could be talking about himself in hell? I guess he figures he is one of the "elect" and is saved no matter what.

Where was that type of preaching ever used in the New Testament? It is not found in Acts. Paul and Peter never preached like this. Who does this guy think he is? Where are the fruits of the spirit?

"This may shock you, but God will be in hell, and he will be the one inflicting the wrath".

So in his Calvinist double predestination theology, God not only creates people doomed to eternal torment but also administers the punishment Himself.

Please explore Orthodox/Catholic theology. This is Satanic.

And even though it seems this guy has done some bad things, I do not wish his version of hell on anyone. Even him.

I forgive him for whatever he did, wonder if he would forgive me if I did the same?

---

Yeah, I have not been able to find much information until this past weekend. In an article I read this past weekend, per a pastor who has been close with him, sounds like there has been repentance and understanding he is disqualified from any future ministerial position as well as a willingness to make a public statement regarding his current state. However, his counselors are advising against it. Supposedly they are trying to find some middle ground in order to do something public. Basically, who knows at the end of the day, except for God.

I am aware of his fiery (no pun intended as it relates to that article) disposition at times; I read through quickly what you sent but would like to look it over another time or two. End times is something I have not spent a lot of time on personally, but I would imagine his overall views are going to be in line generally with some of the ministries I would typically use. Not sure all would endorse some of the brazen word choices that were cited in that article.

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Please get away from this false theology. You are a great guy, these guys are not. They are using the fear of an unbiblical "hell" to get control.

And if "hell" is such a real thing to this guy, shouldn't he be terrified about what happens to him? Or is it only other "sinners"?

And I sincerely hope he repents. But his theology is not Scripturally based in my opinion. Except in a cynical way.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

---

If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

---

Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

---

What are you getting at here? I am not aware of too many things that God has promised that he would NOT do anymore. One being the Noahic Covenant.

All I was getting at was the idea the God of the Old Testament, the warrior who fought for his people, is still with us. The God that had Israel slaughter every breathing thing. God showing his wrath in this example was good, just for the opposing nations, and loving for his chosen Israel. The wrath you mentioned in your article mentioned how it is "tender." I am not sure how wrath and tenderness can go hand in hand, unless you're referring to God's tenderness towards his chosen people.

Revelation 19:11-16
The Rider on a White Horse
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

I tremble at those words in v15...He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

Not even going to pretend to be anything close to an end times expert, but Jesus making war and bringing about the fury of his wrath? Wowza.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

---

If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

---

Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

---

What are you getting at here? I am not aware of too many things that God has promised that he would NOT do anymore. One being the Noahic Covenant.

All I was getting at was the idea the God of the Old Testament, the warrior who fought for his people, is still with us. The God that had Israel slaughter every breathing thing. God showing his wrath in this example was good, just for the opposing nations, and loving for his chosen Israel. The wrath you mentioned in your article mentioned how it is "tender." I am not sure how wrath and tenderness can go hand in hand, unless you're referring to God's tenderness towards his chosen people.

Revelation 19:11-16
The Rider on a White Horse
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

I tremble at those words in v15...He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

Not even going to pretend to be anything close to an end times expert, but Jesus making war and bringing about the fury of his wrath? Wowza.

---

As I have stated before, we have a totally different view of God's character.

And if you listen to guys like the discredited pastor, I tremble for your soul. If he preached that to me and my family, I would stand up and rebuke him while my family left.

Guy is worth 4 mill and committing adultery and telling us how all the "sinners" will be writhing in fire. Wake up! My goodness, you are smart. As Paul said, What kind of spell has been woven over you?

It will be a cold day in hell before I let my kids or grandkids hear guys like this.

And explain to me Jesus's "wrath". Except for when he threw out the Temple merchants (nobody died or went to hell per my Bible) where did Jesus ever advocate anything but love for God and neighbor? Or slaughter anyone?

Who is teaching you this stuff? And how much money do they want? This is cult stuff.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

---

If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

---

Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

---

What are you getting at here? I am not aware of too many things that God has promised that he would NOT do anymore. One being the Noahic Covenant.

All I was getting at was the idea the God of the Old Testament, the warrior who fought for his people, is still with us. The God that had Israel slaughter every breathing thing. God showing his wrath in this example was good, just for the opposing nations, and loving for his chosen Israel. The wrath you mentioned in your article mentioned how it is "tender." I am not sure how wrath and tenderness can go hand in hand, unless you're referring to God's tenderness towards his chosen people.

Revelation 19:11-16
The Rider on a White Horse
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

I tremble at those words in v15...He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

Not even going to pretend to be anything close to an end times expert, but Jesus making war and bringing about the fury of his wrath? Wowza.

---

As I have stated before, we have a totally different view of God's character.

And if you listen to guys like the discredited pastor, I tremble for your soul. If he preached that to me and my family, I would stand up and rebuke him while my family left.

Guy is worth 4 mill and committing adultery and telling us how all the "sinners" will be writhing in fire. Wake up! My goodness, you are smart. As Paul said, What kind of spell has been woven over you?

It will be a cold day in hell before I let my kids or grandkids hear guys like this.

And explain to me Jesus's "wrath". Except for when he threw out the Temple merchants (nobody died or went to hell per my Bible) where did Jesus ever advocate anything but love for God and neighbor? Or slaughter anyone?

Who is teaching you this stuff? And how much money do they want? This is cult stuff.

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Good grief, man. Can you even hear how arrogant you sound?

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Forgive me. I certainly did not mean to. Reading about Lawson made me angry. Sorry I should not have posted. Will take a break.

And apologies to 10andBOUNCE. Will continue to pray for the pastor.

I'm not all that worried about it. That rhetoric has never come up with anything I've listened to, and I was just implying that I'd rather listen to the sermon versus reading a few quotes that were picked out.

I will continue to beat the drum about the end times being very unclear, and anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is probably not someone I will take seriously in that area. It also doesn't mean the rest of their theology is garbage.

Additionally it's pretty crazy we have some holy scripture that is penned by an adulterer and murderer.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm not all that worried about it. That rhetoric has never come up with anything I've listened to, and I was just implying that I'd rather listen to the sermon versus reading a few quotes that were picked out.

I will continue to beat the drum about the end times being very unclear, and anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is probably not someone I will take seriously in that area. It also doesn't mean the rest of their theology is garbage.

Additionally it's pretty crazy we have some holy scripture that is penned by an adulterer and murderer.

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Thanks for your grace. I love God and got angry cause I felt like the pastor besmirched His character.

I will continue to pray for him and all of us.

No worries. It's an overall confusing situation mixed with those references to a confusing subject. He very well could need correction with that specifically, I don't know. I'd also suggest that if you know of a pastor or priest not needing correction, I'm all ears. (Wait, is that the pope? LOL)

TBH I really struggle with some of the perceived arrogance from the Catholic and Orthodox sides. As if they've got it completely nailed down. I don't think anyone has got everything all figured out. Everyone is with error. But I suppose this perceived arrogance may come from all sides at the end of the day.

10andBOUNCE said:

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No worries. It's an overall confusing situation mixed with those references to a confusing subject. He very well could need correction with that specifically, I don't know. I'd also suggest that if you know of a pastor or priest not needing correction, I'm all ears. (Wait, is that the pope? LOL)

TBH I really struggle with some of the perceived arrogance from the Catholic and Orthodox sides. As if they've got it completely nailed down. I don't think anyone has got everything all figured out. Everyone is with error. But I suppose this perceived arrogance may come from all sides at the end of the day.

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Thanks again. Love your posts. You are a good man Charlie Brown and proud to call you my brother in Christ.

Likewise...I appreciate your contributions and know they come from a well intentioned heart.

While we may not all agree with the theology behind Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress, I think we can all appreciate the idea we are on this pilgrimage together to the Celestial City. I look forward to continuing with discussion in what is profitable!

Hell is real...Heaven is real..Purgatory is real....Choose Jesus now, live for Him, forgive everyone from your heart, do what He says to do in the bible.Avoid sin like the plague...Then, on your deathbed, the devil won't have a prayer...

10andBOUNCE said:

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Likewise...I appreciate your contributions and know they come from a well intentioned heart.

While we may not all agree with the theology behind Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress, I think we can all appreciate the idea we are on this pilgrimage together to the Celestial City. I look forward to continuing with discussion in what is profitable!

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Amen.

PabloSerna said:

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Why is the Catholic understanding of Purgatory so difficult to accept?

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Because if purgatory is real, then Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to cover my sins and I have to make up the difference. Purgatory undermines the crucifixion.

The Athanasian Creed is the *best* place to start. Then Lutheran Satire's video on what not to say. (joking but its pretty good honestly)

After that, deep diving gets a little scary, because being wrong on this is being wrong on the identity of God.

I don't think what you said was too harsh. Many "pastors" out there are disqualified and yet continue to pursue teaching despite it, because they have built up a career and money from it. I hesitate to name names, but I can think of several examples that come to mind when I read your post, without even knowing the name of the guy you were talking about...it is your job as the patriarch of your family to be discerning.

The only struggle I have with the idea of hell not being a real physical place, is that we know Heaven is a real physical place. If everyone is in the same physical place...but some are suffering... how can they coexist in the same space.

We know Heaven is a real place, because our souls will be reunited with our physical bodies.. so .. we will be somewhere.

Quote:

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Because if purgatory is real, then Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to cover my sins and I have to make up the difference. Purgatory undermines the crucifixion.

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No, it doesn't....Revelation says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven, and most of us Christians are not 100% clean when we die. Purgatory is how we the saved are cleaned up 100%...And there is this from the bible...

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day[b] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Saved through fire is a description of being cleaned up in purgatory. If you disagree, then please explain...

From Matthew Henry's commentary on 1 Corinthians 3:

There are others whose works shall be burnt (v. 15), whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be discovered, disowned, and rejected, in that day-shall be first manifested to be corrupt, and then disapproved of God and rejected. Note, The great day will pluck off all disguises, and make things appear as they are: He whose work shall be burnt will suffer loss. If he have built upon the right foundation wood and hay and stubble, he will suffer loss. His weakness and corruption will be the lessening of his glory, though he may in the general have been an honest and an upright Christian. This part of his work will be lost, turning no way to his advantage, though he himself may be saved. Observe, Those who hold the foundation of Christianity, though they build hay, wood, and stubble, upon it, may be saved. This may help to enlarge our charity. We should not reprobate men for their weakness: for nothing will damn men but wickedness. He shall be saved, yet so as by fire, saved out of the fire. He himself shall be snatched out of that flame which will consume his work. This intimates that it will be difficult for those that corrupt and deprave Christianity to be saved. God will have no mercy on their works, though he may pluck them as brands out of the burning. On this passage of scripture the papists found their doctrine of purgatory, which is certainly hay and stubble: a doctrine never originally fetched from scripture, but invented in barbarous ages, to feed the avarice and ambition of the clergy, at the cost of those who would rather part with their money than their lusts, for the salvation of their souls. It can have no countenance from this text,
(1.) Because this is plainly meant of a figurative fire, not of a real one: for what real fire can consume religious rites or doctrines?
(2.) Because this fire is to try men's works, of what sort they are; but purgatory-fire is not for trial, not to bring men's actions to the test, but to punish for them. They are supposed to be venial sins, not satisfied for in this life, for which satisfaction must be made by suffering the fire of purgatory.
(3.) Because this fire is to try every man's works, those of Paul and Apollos, as well as those of others. Now, no papists will have the front to say apostles must have passed through purgatory fires.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Quote:

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Because if purgatory is real, then Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to cover my sins and I have to make up the difference. Purgatory undermines the crucifixion.

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No, it doesn't....Revelation says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven, and most of us Christians are not 100% clean when we die. Purgatory is how we the saved are cleaned up 100%...And there is this from the bible...

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day[b] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Saved through fire is a description of being cleaned up in purgatory. If you disagree, then please explain...

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So Christ didn't do enough to save us 100%

swimmerbabe11 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Why is the Catholic understanding of Purgatory so difficult to accept?

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Because if purgatory is real, then Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to cover my sins and I have to make up the difference. Purgatory undermines the crucifixion.

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That belies a misunderstanding of what purgatory means.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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Quote:

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Because if purgatory is real, then Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to cover my sins and I have to make up the difference. Purgatory undermines the crucifixion.

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No, it doesn't....Revelation says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven, and most of us Christians are not 100% clean when we die. Purgatory is how we the saved are cleaned up 100%...And there is this from the bible...

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day[b] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Saved through fire is a description of being cleaned up in purgatory. If you disagree, then please explain...

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So Christ didn't do enough to save us 100%

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Souls in purgatory are 100% saved. They simply are not perfected so they are not ready to realize the end of salvation: communion with God. They require purification because nothing impure can withstand the perfection of God.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I don't think what you said was too harsh. Many "pastors" out there are disqualified and yet continue to pursue teaching despite it, because they have built up a career and money from it. I hesitate to name names, but I can think of several examples that come to mind when I read your post, without even knowing the name of the guy you were talking about...it is your job as the patriarch of your family to be discerning.

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Thank you and I was certainly not trying to be arrogant. I got angry when I read what Lawson said. I do not believe God is in hell inflicting punishment.

And most of the folks he is scaring "the hell out of" are not worth 3-4 mill and in inappropriate sexual relationships. He is preaching this to kids.To me, that is arrogance.

Sorry but still makes me angry. And I forwarded the link to my pastor and I think he had harsher words than me.

so you have to be purified by fire until you are pure enough to get into heaven....therefore... Christ didn't do enough to get you into Heaven alone. This is what you are saying.

Quote:

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So Christ didn't do enough to save us 100%

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No, he didn't...We still have to do our part to get in. That means becoming perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect. And this isn't my idea, it is biblical...

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

So you can either do that here on earth by completely atoning for your sins, or, through God's mercy, you can do it in purgatory.....

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Thanks for sharing that Derm. Really enjoyed it. I agree with it.

The only thing the Catholic Church formally teaches about what we call Purgatory is that it exists. There is no detailed teaching on what or how long it will be. I honestly believe that all Christians believe in Purgatory whether they realizer it or not because when pressed, all Christians will admit that nothing unholy can be in God's presence. If Luther is right and we're all dung heaps covered in the righteousness of Christ's snow, then there will have to be a cleaning up process before we can enter into our eternal fate. It's like spiritual physics or something. The Catholic Church just calls that Purgatory. It's the process or means by which we are purified of disordered attachments (vestiges of sin) that we still have even though we die in God's friendship. Once we are freed from those attachments (made holy), we will enter into eternal bliss and eventually have the beatific vision for eternity.

Purgatory or the purification process or whatever you call it will be "painful" for the reasons so eloquently described in the article.

"For the older brother, the Father's perfect love was painful because it was incompatible with the impurity within his heart."

Eventually we will be rightly ordered and ready to enter into eternity with our Creator.

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In the link to MacDonald's book I gave earlier in this thread, he makes the point that Christ came to save us from our sins, not from the punishment of our sins.

Think about that. Totally different than what a lot of churches teach.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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so you have to be purified by fire until you are pure enough to get into heaven....therefore... Christ didn't do enough to get you into Heaven alone. This is what you are saying.

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Jumping in, if only because I have heard this very question answered- Purgatory is temporal punishment due for sins forgiven.

" is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."

The consequences are death. We still die.
Christ did the work. He went through the fire.
We don't have to do anything but believe and repent.
Anything else is diminishing the work of God.

Well, I also don't believe I have to "do" atonement. I believe, I repent, I have faith in Christ that he did the thing. I can't imagine saying "I mean, yeah, Christ did all this. God the Father sent His ONLY son for this reason, but He still needs me to do a couple sprints to make up that last leg." Why would He send His only son if it wasn't actually good enough to get us into Heaven? Imagine that.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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The consequences are death. We still die.
Christ did the work. He went through the fire.
We don't have to do anything but believe and repent.
Anything else is diminishing the work of God.

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I agree as far as salvation.

To me, Paul in Scripture seems to indicate there may be a purification process where all the "junk" is "burnt" away..

But he makes it clear we are still already saved.

1 Corinthians 3 15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer its loss, but he himself will still be saved, but only as through fire.

dermdoc said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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The consequences are death. We still die.
Christ did the work. He went through the fire.
We don't have to do anything but believe and repent.
Anything else is diminishing the work of God.

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I agree as far as salvation.

To me, Paul in Scripture seems to indicate there may be a purification process where all the "junk" is "burnt" away..

But he makes it clear we are still already saved.

1 Corinthians 3 15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer its loss, but he himself will still be saved, but only as through fire.

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Yeah this is an argument a lot of Catholic apologists make. Everyone who is in purgatory is already saved, they're just being cleaned of their imperfections so they can be made perfect and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Well, I also don't believe I have to "do" atonement. I believe, I repent, I have faith in Christ that he did the thing. I can't imagine saying "I mean, yeah, Christ did all this. God the Father sent His ONLY son for this reason, but He still needs me to do a couple sprints to make up that last leg." Why would He send His only son if it wasn't actually good enough to get us into Heaven? Imagine that.

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Agree. Just curious as a Lutheran if you believe in limited atonement. I do not.