Just making sure I am going about this the proper way using the below example...

Article 2 THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
I. The Apostolic Tradition

The only scripture references given in the catechism are below. I see that it also references DV 7 and 8; Assume that is some kind of council written in modern times?

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16:15
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Just making sure I am going about this the proper way using the below example...

Article 2 THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
I. The Apostolic Tradition

The only scripture references given in the catechism are below. I see that it also references DV 7 and 8; Assume that is some kind of council written in modern times?

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16:15
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

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DV is Dei Verbum, which was one of several documents promulgated by Vatican II.

I simply searched for "authority" and got the following:

https://www.catholiccrossreference.online/catechism/#!/search/Authority

I would also add Matthew 16:18-20.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

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If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

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Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

dermdoc said:

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dermdoc said:

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And I still pray daily for you and your pastor who had the problem. How is that going?

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https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

Is this the guy? Wow. He really needs prayer for a lot of stuff not just the accusations. And how can you preach this stuff and do what he did? Does he not realize that he could be talking about himself in hell? I guess he figures he is one of the "elect" and is saved no matter what.

Where was that type of preaching ever used in the New Testament? It is not found in Acts. Paul and Peter never preached like this. Who does this guy think he is? Where are the fruits of the spirit?

"This may shock you, but God will be in hell, and he will be the one inflicting the wrath".

So in his Calvinist double predestination theology, God not only creates people doomed to eternal torment but also administers the punishment Himself.

Please explore Orthodox/Catholic theology. This is Satanic.

And even though it seems this guy has done some bad things, I do not wish his version of hell on anyone. Even him.

I forgive him for whatever he did, wonder if he would forgive me if I did the same?

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Yeah, I have not been able to find much information until this past weekend. In an article I read this past weekend, per a pastor who has been close with him, sounds like there has been repentance and understanding he is disqualified from any future ministerial position as well as a willingness to make a public statement regarding his current state. However, his counselors are advising against it. Supposedly they are trying to find some middle ground in order to do something public. Basically, who knows at the end of the day, except for God.

I am aware of his fiery (no pun intended as it relates to that article) disposition at times; I read through quickly what you sent but would like to look it over another time or two. End times is something I have not spent a lot of time on personally, but I would imagine his overall views are going to be in line generally with some of the ministries I would typically use. Not sure all would endorse some of the brazen word choices that were cited in that article.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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dermdoc said:

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And I still pray daily for you and your pastor who had the problem. How is that going?

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https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

Is this the guy? Wow. He really needs prayer for a lot of stuff not just the accusations. And how can you preach this stuff and do what he did? Does he not realize that he could be talking about himself in hell? I guess he figures he is one of the "elect" and is saved no matter what.

Where was that type of preaching ever used in the New Testament? It is not found in Acts. Paul and Peter never preached like this. Who does this guy think he is? Where are the fruits of the spirit?

"This may shock you, but God will be in hell, and he will be the one inflicting the wrath".

So in his Calvinist double predestination theology, God not only creates people doomed to eternal torment but also administers the punishment Himself.

Please explore Orthodox/Catholic theology. This is Satanic.

And even though it seems this guy has done some bad things, I do not wish his version of hell on anyone. Even him.

I forgive him for whatever he did, wonder if he would forgive me if I did the same?

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Yeah, I have not been able to find much information until this past weekend. In an article I read this past weekend, per a pastor who has been close with him, sounds like there has been repentance and understanding he is disqualified from any future ministerial position as well as a willingness to make a public statement regarding his current state. However, his counselors are advising against it. Supposedly they are trying to find some middle ground in order to do something public. Basically, who knows at the end of the day, except for God.

I am aware of his fiery (no pun intended as it relates to that article) disposition at times; I read through quickly what you sent but would like to look it over another time or two. End times is something I have not spent a lot of time on personally, but I would imagine his overall views are going to be in line generally with some of the ministries I would typically use. Not sure all would endorse some of the brazen word choices that were cited in that article.

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Please get away from this false theology. You are a great guy, these guys are not. They are using the fear of an unbiblical "hell" to get control.

And if "hell" is such a real thing to this guy, shouldn't he be terrified about what happens to him? Or is it only other "sinners"?

And I sincerely hope he repents. But his theology is not Scripturally based in my opinion. Except in a cynical way.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

---

If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

---

Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

---

What are you getting at here? I am not aware of too many things that God has promised that he would NOT do anymore. One being the Noahic Covenant.

All I was getting at was the idea the God of the Old Testament, the warrior who fought for his people, is still with us. The God that had Israel slaughter every breathing thing. God showing his wrath in this example was good, just for the opposing nations, and loving for his chosen Israel. The wrath you mentioned in your article mentioned how it is "tender." I am not sure how wrath and tenderness can go hand in hand, unless you're referring to God's tenderness towards his chosen people.

Revelation 19:11-16
The Rider on a White Horse
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

I tremble at those words in v15...He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

Not even going to pretend to be anything close to an end times expert, but Jesus making war and bringing about the fury of his wrath? Wowza.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

---

If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

---

Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

---

What are you getting at here? I am not aware of too many things that God has promised that he would NOT do anymore. One being the Noahic Covenant.

All I was getting at was the idea the God of the Old Testament, the warrior who fought for his people, is still with us. The God that had Israel slaughter every breathing thing. God showing his wrath in this example was good, just for the opposing nations, and loving for his chosen Israel. The wrath you mentioned in your article mentioned how it is "tender." I am not sure how wrath and tenderness can go hand in hand, unless you're referring to God's tenderness towards his chosen people.

Revelation 19:11-16
The Rider on a White Horse
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

I tremble at those words in v15...He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

Not even going to pretend to be anything close to an end times expert, but Jesus making war and bringing about the fury of his wrath? Wowza.

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As I have stated before, we have a totally different view of God's character.

And if you listen to guys like the discredited pastor, I tremble for your soul. If he preached that to me and my family, I would stand up and rebuke him while my family left.

Guy is worth 4 mill and committing adultery and telling us how all the "sinners" will be writhing in fire. Wake up! My goodness, you are smart. As Paul said, What kind of spell has been woven over you?

It will be a cold day in hell before I let my kids or grandkids hear guys like this.

And explain to me Jesus's "wrath". Except for when he threw out the Temple merchants (nobody died or went to hell per my Bible) where did Jesus ever advocate anything but love for God and neighbor? Or slaughter anyone?

Who is teaching you this stuff? And how much money do they want? This is cult stuff.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

We are under a new covenant. How many times do I have to post this?

---

If God is immutable, his character, attributes, etc have not changed, ever. What implications are you saying the New Covenant has in regards to God's love and his character? He has made a new way for us to commune with him in Christ. Is his love more robust in the era of the New Covenant?

---

Okay say I have a contract with you that allows me to destroy your property, ruin your job, etc.

I make a new contract where I do not do those things. My character had not changed but the contract has.

---

What are you getting at here? I am not aware of too many things that God has promised that he would NOT do anymore. One being the Noahic Covenant.

All I was getting at was the idea the God of the Old Testament, the warrior who fought for his people, is still with us. The God that had Israel slaughter every breathing thing. God showing his wrath in this example was good, just for the opposing nations, and loving for his chosen Israel. The wrath you mentioned in your article mentioned how it is "tender." I am not sure how wrath and tenderness can go hand in hand, unless you're referring to God's tenderness towards his chosen people.

Revelation 19:11-16
The Rider on a White Horse
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

I tremble at those words in v15...He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

Not even going to pretend to be anything close to an end times expert, but Jesus making war and bringing about the fury of his wrath? Wowza.

---

As I have stated before, we have a totally different view of God's character.

And if you listen to guys like the discredited pastor, I tremble for your soul. If he preached that to me and my family, I would stand up and rebuke him while my family left.

Guy is worth 4 mill and committing adultery and telling us how all the "sinners" will be writhing in fire. Wake up! My goodness, you are smart. As Paul said, What kind of spell has been woven over you?

It will be a cold day in hell before I let my kids or grandkids hear guys like this.

And explain to me Jesus's "wrath". Except for when he threw out the Temple merchants (nobody died or went to hell per my Bible) where did Jesus ever advocate anything but love for God and neighbor? Or slaughter anyone?

Who is teaching you this stuff? And how much money do they want? This is cult stuff.

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Good grief, man. Can you even hear how arrogant you sound?

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Forgive me. I certainly did not mean to. Reading about Lawson made me angry. Sorry I should not have posted. Will take a break.

And apologies to 10andBOUNCE. Will continue to pray for the pastor.

I'm not all that worried about it. That rhetoric has never come up with anything I've listened to, and I was just implying that I'd rather listen to the sermon versus reading a few quotes that were picked out.

I will continue to beat the drum about the end times being very unclear, and anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is probably not someone I will take seriously in that area. It also doesn't mean the rest of their theology is garbage.

Additionally it's pretty crazy we have some holy scripture that is penned by an adulterer and murderer.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm not all that worried about it. That rhetoric has never come up with anything I've listened to, and I was just implying that I'd rather listen to the sermon versus reading a few quotes that were picked out.

I will continue to beat the drum about the end times being very unclear, and anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is probably not someone I will take seriously in that area. It also doesn't mean the rest of their theology is garbage.

Additionally it's pretty crazy we have some holy scripture that is penned by an adulterer and murderer.

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Thanks for your grace. I love God and got angry cause I felt like the pastor besmirched His character.

I will continue to pray for him and all of us.

No worries. It's an overall confusing situation mixed with those references to a confusing subject. He very well could need correction with that specifically, I don't know. I'd also suggest that if you know of a pastor or priest not needing correction, I'm all ears. (Wait, is that the pope? LOL)

TBH I really struggle with some of the perceived arrogance from the Catholic and Orthodox sides. As if they've got it completely nailed down. I don't think anyone has got everything all figured out. Everyone is with error. But I suppose this perceived arrogance may come from all sides at the end of the day.

10andBOUNCE said:

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No worries. It's an overall confusing situation mixed with those references to a confusing subject. He very well could need correction with that specifically, I don't know. I'd also suggest that if you know of a pastor or priest not needing correction, I'm all ears. (Wait, is that the pope? LOL)

TBH I really struggle with some of the perceived arrogance from the Catholic and Orthodox sides. As if they've got it completely nailed down. I don't think anyone has got everything all figured out. Everyone is with error. But I suppose this perceived arrogance may come from all sides at the end of the day.

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Thanks again. Love your posts. You are a good man Charlie Brown and proud to call you my brother in Christ.

Likewise...I appreciate your contributions and know they come from a well intentioned heart.

While we may not all agree with the theology behind Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress, I think we can all appreciate the idea we are on this pilgrimage together to the Celestial City. I look forward to continuing with discussion in what is profitable!