Yeah I know that. But that doesn't answer my question.

I've given this analogy before, so apologies if you have already heard it.

If I say, "Fish swim in the sea." and later learn that whales are in fact not fish but mammals- does that mean that my previous understanding was wrong or "inferior" to quote you? No. It just means that now I understand that fish and mammals swim in sea.

You're the one that used the words diminished and better. You just seem uncomfortable with the logical conclusions to what you're saying.

Dermdoc, thanks for posting this very interesting article.

What is your interpretation of the great white throne judgment as described in Rev 20:11-15 as it relates to heaven or hell being a state of mind? This scripture seems to indicate that God is taking an action.

Aggies76 said:

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Dermdoc, thanks for posting this very interesting article.

What is your interpretation of the great white throne judgment as described in Rev 20:11-15 as it relates to heaven or hell being a state of mind? This scripture seems to indicate that God is taking an action.

---

Depends on how you interpret it. Is it a literal white throne and lake of fire? And what does fire mean in Biblical terms?

Is it a purification process or punitive punishment?

I personally think this Scripture is allegorical and should not be taken literally.

And I believe that people are "judged" by being exposed to God's presence.

God can not sin and is just.

All that being said, Revelation has been translated so many different ways by so many people smarter than me, who knows?

I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one.

dermdoc said:

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Aggies76 said:

---

Dermdoc, thanks for posting this very interesting article.

What is your interpretation of the great white throne judgment as described in Rev 20:11-15 as it relates to heaven or hell being a state of mind? This scripture seems to indicate that God is taking an action.

---

Depends on how you interpret it. Is it a literal white throne and lake of fire? And what does fire mean in Biblical terms?

Is it a purification process or punitive punishment?

I personally think this Scripture is allegorical and should not be taken literally.

And I believe that people are "judged" by being exposed to God's presence.

God can not sin and is just.

All that being said, Revelation has been translated so many different ways by so many people smarter than me, who knows?

I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one.

---

Derm, love reading this from you:

"I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one."


Curious how you think this squares with salvation by faith alone? It seems Luther, Calvin et al stood for the proposition that it was forensic, declaratory in nature and not an actual transformation. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

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Aggies76 said:

---

Dermdoc, thanks for posting this very interesting article.

What is your interpretation of the great white throne judgment as described in Rev 20:11-15 as it relates to heaven or hell being a state of mind? This scripture seems to indicate that God is taking an action.

---

Depends on how you interpret it. Is it a literal white throne and lake of fire? And what does fire mean in Biblical terms?

Is it a purification process or punitive punishment?

I personally think this Scripture is allegorical and should not be taken literally.

And I believe that people are "judged" by being exposed to God's presence.

God can not sin and is just.

All that being said, Revelation has been translated so many different ways by so many people smarter than me, who knows?

I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one.

---

Derm, love reading this from you:

"I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one."


Curious how you think this squares with salvation by faith alone? It seems Luther, Calvin et al stood for the proposition that it was forensic, declaratory in nature and not an actual transformation. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

---

I think the Western church and especially America, doubled down on justification and being "saved" rather than the process of becoming more Christ like through theosis/sanctification and glorification when we die and are in the presence of the Lord.

"Sinners in the hands of an angry God" and "turn or burn" theology.

What are we being "saved" from? God is good. We are essentially being saved from our sin nature so we can become more Christ like and produce fruit. And be filled with joy and abundance of life.

Or you can reject God's grace and eventually creat your own "hell" with the complete absence of God or good.

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Aggies76 said:

---

Dermdoc, thanks for posting this very interesting article.

What is your interpretation of the great white throne judgment as described in Rev 20:11-15 as it relates to heaven or hell being a state of mind? This scripture seems to indicate that God is taking an action.

---

Depends on how you interpret it. Is it a literal white throne and lake of fire? And what does fire mean in Biblical terms?

Is it a purification process or punitive punishment?

I personally think this Scripture is allegorical and should not be taken literally.

And I believe that people are "judged" by being exposed to God's presence.

God can not sin and is just.

All that being said, Revelation has been translated so many different ways by so many people smarter than me, who knows?

I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one.

---

Derm, love reading this from you:

"I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one."


Curious how you think this squares with salvation by faith alone? It seems Luther, Calvin et al stood for the proposition that it was forensic, declaratory in nature and not an actual transformation. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

---

I think the Western church and especially America, doubled down on justification and being "saved" rather than the process of becoming more Christ like through theosis/sanctification and glorification when we die and are in the presence of the Lord.

"Sinners in the hands of an angry God" and "turn or burn" theology.

What are we being "saved" from? God is good. We are essentially being saved from our sin nature so we can become more Christ like and produce fruit. And be filled with joy and abundance of life.

Or you can reject God's grace and eventually creat your own "hell" with the complete absence of God or good.

---

I think you are correct. We are saved from the effects of sin but more importantly we are saved for union with our creator, which is why we were created in the first place.

I just don't see how that can be squared with the soteriology of faith alone as understood by the original reformers.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Aggies76 said:

---

Dermdoc, thanks for posting this very interesting article.

What is your interpretation of the great white throne judgment as described in Rev 20:11-15 as it relates to heaven or hell being a state of mind? This scripture seems to indicate that God is taking an action.

---

Depends on how you interpret it. Is it a literal white throne and lake of fire? And what does fire mean in Biblical terms?

Is it a purification process or punitive punishment?

I personally think this Scripture is allegorical and should not be taken literally.

And I believe that people are "judged" by being exposed to God's presence.

God can not sin and is just.

All that being said, Revelation has been translated so many different ways by so many people smarter than me, who knows?

I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one.

---

Derm, love reading this from you:

"I do believe salvation is an ontological event and not a judicial one."


Curious how you think this squares with salvation by faith alone? It seems Luther, Calvin et al stood for the proposition that it was forensic, declaratory in nature and not an actual transformation. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

---

I think the Western church and especially America, doubled down on justification and being "saved" rather than the process of becoming more Christ like through theosis/sanctification and glorification when we die and are in the presence of the Lord.

"Sinners in the hands of an angry God" and "turn or burn" theology.

What are we being "saved" from? God is good. We are essentially being saved from our sin nature so we can become more Christ like and produce fruit. And be filled with joy and abundance of life.

Or you can reject God's grace and eventually creat your own "hell" with the complete absence of God or good.

---

I think you are correct. We are saved from the effects of sin but more importantly we are saved for union with our creator, which is why we were created in the first place.

I just don't see how that can be squared with the soteriology of faith alone as understood by the original reformers.

---

I think faith is the starting point for a lifelong journey and process.

" What are we being "saved" from? God is good."

This is a wonderful insight that I feel reflects a level of spiritual knowledge that Christ was trying to relate in his ministry. Not that the rituals are unimportant, because they are a way to engage man at a physical level (bread and wine for example) that reinforce a metaphysical reality.

However, to get so caught up with rituals and lose sight of your brother/sister in need is what I feel Christ came to clear up.

The same can be said for the mission. As you said, God is "good". The more we conform our will and fallen nature to God's plan for us- the more we can reflect God's plan for all of mankind. We don't lose anything in doing this, rather we become more like he envisioned us to be.

We are being saved from our fallen nature.

Derm, you won't like this, but Sproul's answer of what we need saving from is God's wrath.

We need a savior because it helps us shed our sinful nature? That doesn't really compute for me. We need a savior so we don't endure God's wrath.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Derm, you won't like this, but Sproul's answer of what we need saving from is God's wrath.

We need a savior because it helps us shed our sinful nature? That doesn't really compute for me. We need a savior so we don't endure God's wrath.

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Depends on how you define God's "wrath". God is immutable, without change. He is love, just, and wants to save all people as defined by Scripture.

I believe "wrath" is simply God's burning love on people who reject Him. Like it says in the op. Kind of like kindness to enemies heaps burning coals on their heads. Or why Jesus instructed us to love our enemies. Evil does not like love or good, so it is like "hell" for them.

So what are we to do with the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" references?

10andBOUNCE said:

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So what are we to do with the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" references?

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They reject God and that is the result. And extreme remorse. Self induced not God induced.

The Reformed/Calvinist soteriology comprises a fairly small fraction of soteriology beliefs in Christianity.

And if you read the original link that was the guy's point. The Reformed/Calvinist soteriology is so different from the rest of Christianity that it is like a different Gospel and belief system.