Israel removes cross from grave of Christian soldier who died in Gaza

3,814 Views | 68 Replies | Last: 29 days ago by Zobel
UTExan
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" Israel is for the preservation of modern jews. Period. End of story. Everything else they do flows from that point…"

Duh. That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you. The historical genocide against the Jews from every place they have resided is the predicate reason for their very existence as a nation state. History has not yet proved them wrong.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
Zobel
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Ohh, so that's why it's ok for them to do an ethnic cleansing
one MEEN Ag
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UTExan said:

" Israel is for the preservation of modern jews. Period. End of story. Everything else they do flows from that point…"

Duh. That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you. The historical genocide against the Jews from every place they have resided is the predicate reason for their very existence as a nation state. History has not yet proved them wrong.


How many grievances does my father have to suffer before I'm allowed to kill a man as retribution? Israel has become what they suffered through. This isn't surprising. This is what any group once victimized gets into power does. 'Never again' became 'never again to us'. You give Israel carte blanche to attack, and kill to protect their ethnostate. I don't condone their worldview nor their genocidal tendencies to protect their ethnostate.

And they don't care. Because they don't share the same presuppositions about society (all men are equal) that are downstream of Christ. Because they don't have Christ.
Quo Vadis?
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Also, let's not act like the Jews are persecuted for no reason. I'll give you "persecuted" and while nothing they did could justify some of the treatment they received, they pissed off a lot of people over the years.

From persecuting Christians, to killing and rampaging across Christian Najran, to opening the gates of Toledo, and charging usurious rates to non-jews; they gave their persecutors plenty of ammunition.

The commonly told joke is, if you've been kicked out of a bar; the bar might be the problem; if you've been kicked out of 110; you might be the problem
one MEEN Ag
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Zobel said:

Ohh, so that's why it's ok for them to do an ethnic cleansing
When you join Israel, its THE ethnic cleansing.
When you join any other country its AN ethnic cleansing.
one MEEN Ag
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Israel hates anything cross shaped so much there is a push to specifically use versions of the + sign that do not have an either a bottom or top leg. In kids math. They'll tell you about it being latin tradition that made it a plus sign, but its a convienent excuse.

Not surprised that a cross on a grave is seen as huge issue.
UTExan
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one MEEN Ag said:

UTExan said:

" Israel is for the preservation of modern jews. Period. End of story. Everything else they do flows from that point…"

Duh. That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you. The historical genocide against the Jews from every place they have resided is the predicate reason for their very existence as a nation state. History has not yet proved them wrong.


How many grievances does my father have to suffer before I'm allowed to kill a man as retribution? Israel has become what they suffered through. This isn't surprising. This is what any group once victimized gets into power does. 'Never again' became 'never again to us'. You give Israel carte blanche to attack, and kill to protect their ethnostate. I don't condone their worldview nor their genocidal tendencies to protect their ethnostate.

And they don't care. Because they don't share the same presuppositions about society (all men are equal) that are downstream of Christ. Because they don't have Christ.


You could ask the Israelis: the 1948 independence declaration was met by 5 professionallly trained Arab armies who were determined to "drive the Jews" into the sea, a phrase repeated by Arab radio throughout the 1950s, 1960s and even into the 1970s, if the CIA's FBIS transcripts are accurate. The Israelis certainly have their share of problems with their own extremists: the settlers who trespass on Palestinian lands or just take them by force without Israeli government intervention are prime examples. The Haredi also shut down neighborhood streets in Jerusalem on Shabbat. It doesn't approach the viciousness of the October 7 attacks which targeted civilians. Perhaps it is the stories of the violent repression received at the hands of Catholic and Orthodox Christians historically and the current genocidal ideology of their enemies which informs their current views about their status in the world. The difference of course, is that there are Israelis who actively seek peace with their neighbors. There are a few Palestinians who seek peace as well. These people are not at the center of government for their respective sides, being pushed to the margins by the ongoing warfare. I doubt the region will see peace until King Jesus returns to set up His government and reign for a thousand years as described in Revelation 20 and Zechariah 14.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
barbacoa taco
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ramblin_ag02 said:

The numbers won't change. The state of Israel has made it clear over 75 years that a wide Jewish majority is the single most important thing about that state. The situation with the Palestinians has nothing to do with the fact that they are specifically Muslims, only that they aren't Jews. They can't let the Palestinians be part of Israel, because then the Jewish numerical majority would be threatened. If the number of Christians in Israel ever came near to outnumbering Jews, we'd see a similar sort of response from the state of Israel.
And this is exactly why ethnostates are a very bad idea.
barbacoa taco
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one MEEN Ag said:

UTExan said:

" Israel is for the preservation of modern jews. Period. End of story. Everything else they do flows from that point…"

Duh. That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you. The historical genocide against the Jews from every place they have resided is the predicate reason for their very existence as a nation state. History has not yet proved them wrong.


How many grievances does my father have to suffer before I'm allowed to kill a man as retribution? Israel has become what they suffered through. This isn't surprising. This is what any group once victimized gets into power does. 'Never again' became 'never again to us'. You give Israel carte blanche to attack, and kill to protect their ethnostate. I don't condone their worldview nor their genocidal tendencies to protect their ethnostate.

And they don't care. Because they don't share the same presuppositions about society (all men are equal) that are downstream of Christ. Because they don't have Christ.
And this will go down as one of the great tragedies of the last century. Never again should truly mean NEVER AGAIN.
UTExan
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Quo Vadis? said:

Also, let's not act like the Jews are persecuted for no reason. I'll give you "persecuted" and while nothing they did could justify some of the treatment they received, they pissed off a lot of people over the years.

From persecuting Christians, to killing and rampaging across Christian Najran, to opening the gates of Toledo, and charging usurious rates to non-jews; they gave their persecutors plenty of ammunition.

The commonly told joke is, if you've been kicked out of a bar; the bar might be the problem; if you've been kicked out of 110; you might be the problem


Well, the Europeans forbade them from various occupations so they gravitated to banking, finance and trade in gold, jewels and other means of fungible exchange. They allied themselves at various times with Muslim and Christian rulers to insure survival. Your blaming of Jewish victims here is about a vile a form of antisemitism as it is possible to read on a public forum and simply exemplifies the historical hatred of Jews resident in the tradition one claims to embrace. And it also highlights the fact that a homeland for Jews as promised by God is the only solution to their persecution.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
Quo Vadis?
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UTExan said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Also, let's not act like the Jews are persecuted for no reason. I'll give you "persecuted" and while nothing they did could justify some of the treatment they received, they pissed off a lot of people over the years.

From persecuting Christians, to killing and rampaging across Christian Najran, to opening the gates of Toledo, and charging usurious rates to non-jews; they gave their persecutors plenty of ammunition.

The commonly told joke is, if you've been kicked out of a bar; the bar might be the problem; if you've been kicked out of 110; you might be the problem


Well, the Europeans forbade them from various occupations so they gravitated to banking, finance and trade in gold, jewels and other means of fungible exchange. They allied themselves at various times with Muslim and Christian rulers to insure survival. Your blaming of Jewish victims here is about a vile a form of antisemitism as it is possible to read on a public forum and simply exemplifies the historical hatred of Jews resident in the tradition one claims to embrace. And it also highlights the fact that a homeland for Jews as promised by God is the only solution to their persecution.



What did I say that was anti-Semitic? Was anything false?

Also, nowhere except in certain offshoots of evangelical Christianity is the modern nation-state of Israel the biblical Israel. The biblical Israel is the Church, not the pro-abortion gay capital of the levent.
747Ag
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Quo Vadis? said:

UTExan said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Also, let's not act like the Jews are persecuted for no reason. I'll give you "persecuted" and while nothing they did could justify some of the treatment they received, they pissed off a lot of people over the years.

From persecuting Christians, to killing and rampaging across Christian Najran, to opening the gates of Toledo, and charging usurious rates to non-jews; they gave their persecutors plenty of ammunition.

The commonly told joke is, if you've been kicked out of a bar; the bar might be the problem; if you've been kicked out of 110; you might be the problem


Well, the Europeans forbade them from various occupations so they gravitated to banking, finance and trade in gold, jewels and other means of fungible exchange. They allied themselves at various times with Muslim and Christian rulers to insure survival. Your blaming of Jewish victims here is about a vile a form of antisemitism as it is possible to read on a public forum and simply exemplifies the historical hatred of Jews resident in the tradition one claims to embrace. And it also highlights the fact that a homeland for Jews as promised by God is the only solution to their persecution.



What did I say that was anti-Semitic? Was anything false?

Also, nowhere except in certain offshoots of evangelical Christianity is the modern nation-state of Israel the biblical Israel. The biblical Israel is the Church, not the pro-abortion gay capital of the levent.

As much as I disagree with Mark Shea on many things, he has a point in this 3yo post.

BluHorseShu
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nortex97 said:

Military cemeteries generally have pretty strict rules about gravestones. I think this one's basically a nothingburger.
all U.S. cemeteries allow religious symbols on markers.
BluHorseShu
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Zobel said:

Quote:

So Arabs can have several ethnic homelands, Persians can have an ethnic homeland, Armenians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis and Turks can have an ethnic homeland, Japanese can have an ethnic homeland and Koreans can have 2 ethnic homelands, but Jews cannot?

Cool cool cool cool cool, so where is the ethnic homeland for white people? Like, maybe Germans?
New Braunfels
747Ag
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BluHorseShu said:

Zobel said:

Quote:

So Arabs can have several ethnic homelands, Persians can have an ethnic homeland, Armenians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis and Turks can have an ethnic homeland, Japanese can have an ethnic homeland and Koreans can have 2 ethnic homelands, but Jews cannot?

Cool cool cool cool cool, so where is the ethnic homeland for white people? Like, maybe Germans?
New Braunfels

I'm partial to Muenster and Lindsay. Up there in Cooke County, you've got West Germany and East Germany.
one MEEN Ag
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BluHorseShu said:

Zobel said:

Quote:

So Arabs can have several ethnic homelands, Persians can have an ethnic homeland, Armenians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis and Turks can have an ethnic homeland, Japanese can have an ethnic homeland and Koreans can have 2 ethnic homelands, but Jews cannot?

Cool cool cool cool cool, so where is the ethnic homeland for white people? Like, maybe Germans?
New Braunfels


It's full. There's some lebensraum east of new braunfels though.
UTExan
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Quo Vadis? said:

UTExan said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Also, let's not act like the Jews are persecuted for no reason. I'll give you "persecuted" and while nothing they did could justify some of the treatment they received, they pissed off a lot of people over the years.

From persecuting Christians, to killing and rampaging across Christian Najran, to opening the gates of Toledo, and charging usurious rates to non-jews; they gave their persecutors plenty of ammunition.

The commonly told joke is, if you've been kicked out of a bar; the bar might be the problem; if you've been kicked out of 110; you might be the problem


Well, the Europeans forbade them from various occupations so they gravitated to banking, finance and trade in gold, jewels and other means of fungible exchange. They allied themselves at various times with Muslim and Christian rulers to insure survival. Your blaming of Jewish victims here is about a vile a form of antisemitism as it is possible to read on a public forum and simply exemplifies the historical hatred of Jews resident in the tradition one claims to embrace. And it also highlights the fact that a homeland for Jews as promised by God is the only solution to their persecution.



What did I say that was anti-Semitic? Was anything false?

Also, nowhere except in certain offshoots of evangelical Christianity is the modern nation-state of Israel the biblical Israel. The biblical Israel is the Church, not the pro-abortion gay capital of the levent.


Christians were grafted into Israel. Romans 11 explains this. Branches were pruned, but the root remains. Isaiah 11, Jeremiah 29, Ezekiel 20 (41-42) and Ezekiel 37 make this clear about a promise to the nearly moribund Jews that they would once again be brought back into their own land. Never, IIRC, does God completely write off Israel despite their idolatry. His promise to them is about His integrity, not their worthiness.
Additionally, Amos 9 describes God's keeping of His people and His provision for them.

“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
Quo Vadis?
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UTExan said:

Quo Vadis? said:

UTExan said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Also, let's not act like the Jews are persecuted for no reason. I'll give you "persecuted" and while nothing they did could justify some of the treatment they received, they pissed off a lot of people over the years.

From persecuting Christians, to killing and rampaging across Christian Najran, to opening the gates of Toledo, and charging usurious rates to non-jews; they gave their persecutors plenty of ammunition.

The commonly told joke is, if you've been kicked out of a bar; the bar might be the problem; if you've been kicked out of 110; you might be the problem


Well, the Europeans forbade them from various occupations so they gravitated to banking, finance and trade in gold, jewels and other means of fungible exchange. They allied themselves at various times with Muslim and Christian rulers to insure survival. Your blaming of Jewish victims here is about a vile a form of antisemitism as it is possible to read on a public forum and simply exemplifies the historical hatred of Jews resident in the tradition one claims to embrace. And it also highlights the fact that a homeland for Jews as promised by God is the only solution to their persecution.



What did I say that was anti-Semitic? Was anything false?

Also, nowhere except in certain offshoots of evangelical Christianity is the modern nation-state of Israel the biblical Israel. The biblical Israel is the Church, not the pro-abortion gay capital of the levent.


Christians were grafted into Israel. Romans 11 explains this. Branches were pruned, but the root remains. Isaiah 11, Jeremiah 29, Ezekiel 20 (41-42) and Ezekiel 37 make this clear about a promise to the nearly moribund Jews that they would once again be brought back into their own land. Never, IIRC, does God completely write off Israel despite their idolatry. His promise to them is about His integrity, not their worthiness.
Additionally, Amos 9 describes God's keeping of His people and His provision for them.




He doesn't write off Israel, he perfects it. His sacrifice on the cross was as much for Jew as it was gentile. Salvation has come to the Jews, just as it came for all of mankind. The salvation is Jesus Christ and the Church which is His body.

Pre-resurrection Judaism was marked by their waiting for the Messiah. Post resurrection Judaism was marked by their rejection of Christ as the Messiah. There is no two ways around it. I've never understood this weird dichotomy where conservative Jews will argue that post destruction of the temple they are forbidden from having a homeland, while Dispensationalist prots will argue that God was thinking of Bibi Netanyahu while making his promise to Abraham's descendants.
BonfireNerd04
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Zobel said:

So no objection to Europeans waging war on other ethnicities in Europe, driving them out?


Remember that 15 million Germans east of the Oder-Neisse Line were forcibly relocated after WW2, as collective punishment for Germany starting a war of genocidal aggression.

But for some reason, Israel displacing 5% of the number of people at the same time was a "genocide".
Zobel
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Arguing for ethnic cleansing is a weird take but at least you're honest about it.

The weird thing is by this logic you don't object to any war of ethnic cleansing. It's not wrong, it's morally neutral.

And nobody said genocide.
Zobel
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Christians were not grafted into Israel. Gentiles were. Christians are Israel.

Modern day Jews are not. Israel the nation state is not.
UTExan
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Zobel said:

Christians were not grafted into Israel. Gentiles were. Christians are Israel.

Modern day Jews are not. Israel the nation state is not.

Really???
Could you quote scripture on that point or is that tradition?
Because Jews seem to have identified as being Israel since the time of Jacob.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
Zobel
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The Jews didn't exist in the time of Jacob. Jew comes from Judaean, the residents of Judah.

Romans 11 says the gentiles were grafted in, not Christians. The branches broken off were the northern tribes of Israel, who were scattered into the gentiles. It is one of the most often repeated themes of the prophets - that Israel and Judah would become one.

The nation of Israel was a mixed multitude, one of the first high priests was literally a black African. It was never only about the ethnic descendants of Israel. If you are part of the faithful, you are a child of Abraham and heir to the promise.

Just like st paul says, not all who are of Israel are Israel. Israel is the faithful people of God. That's why the same word for the church, ecclesia, is used as to describe the assembly of the people of God in the OT. It's why St. Peter quotes to Christians the promises of Deuteronomy about being the people of God.

The scriptural evidence is literally the entirety of the prophets and NT.
BonfireNerd04
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Zobel said:

Arguing for ethnic cleansing is a weird take but at least you're honest about it.

The weird thing is by this logic you don't object to any war of ethnic cleansing. It's not wrong, it's morally neutral.

And nobody said genocide.


I'm not arguing that ethnic cleansing is always good, but when that ethnicity's fundamental value is to want yours dead, and they reject multiple attempts at a peaceful settlement, then their forced removal becomes a matter of national self-defense and thus morally justified.

So, yes, I fully support Israel's right to expel the Palestinians, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat it.
Zobel
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What is the Jewish desire vis a vis the people who were living in the holy land prior to 1920? This has been their exact intent all along. It didn't end up being ethnic cleansing, it started that way.


What'd your position on the Mexican Reconquista?
UTExan
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Zobel said:

The Jews didn't exist in the time of Jacob. Jew comes from Judaean, the residents of Judah.

Romans 11 says the gentiles were grafted in, not Christians. The branches broken off were the northern tribes of Israel, who were scattered into the gentiles. It is one of the most often repeated themes of the prophets - that Israel and Judah would become one.

The nation of Israel was a mixed multitude, one of the first high priests was literally a black African. It was never only about the ethnic descendants of Israel. If you are part of the faithful, you are a child of Abraham and heir to the promise.

Just like st paul says, not all who are of Israel are Israel. Israel is the faithful people of God. That's why the same word for the church, ecclesia, is used as to describe the assembly of the people of God in the OT. It's why St. Peter quotes to Christians the promises of Deuteronomy about being the people of God.

The scriptural evidence is literally the entirety of the prophets and NT.


Actually Jew comes from Judah, the eldest son of Jacob. And just as then, so today, there are black Jews. In fact, it was a major IDF operation to bring African Jews from Ethiopia to Israel. You see them today in the IDF and the Border Police as well as everyday life in business and commerce.
If you check those scriptural verses I quoted above, you see God promising to bring them "back" from the lands where they have been exiled and scattered. That sounds a lot more like people who have been banished and forced to leave their homeland than it does a universal church.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
BonfireNerd04
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Zobel said:

What is the Jewish desire vis a vis the people who were living in the holy land prior to 1920? This has been their exact intent all along. It didn't end up being ethnic cleansing, it started that way.


Israel made them a blanket offer of citizenship, and at least 150,000 Arabs chose to take it. Of course, many others chose instead to collaborate with other Arabs in waging a war of extermination against Israel, but what do you want Israel to have done about that?

Quote:

What'd your position on the Mexican Reconquista?


I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. You mean what would I do if Mexico somehow reconquered Texas and started persecuting us gringos?
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

Actually Jew comes from Judah, the eldest son of Jacob. And just as then, so today, there are black Jews. In fact, it was a major IDF operation to bring African Jews from Ethiopia to Israel. You see them today in the IDF and the Border Police as well as everyday life in business and commerce.
Of course Jew comes from Judah, but they weren't Jews in the past. They were Israel, and Hebrews. They became "Jews" when Israel split into Israel and Judah, and the tribes who were a part of the kingdom of Judah were Judaeans.

This history doesn't begin in the twentieth century.

When Israel was formed, it was not just the family of Jacob. It also included people from other tribes and nations - Midianites, Canaanites, Egyptians, and Libyans. The point wasn't to say "black people can be Jewish" the point was that Israel - the Israel of God - was never about blood. Being a child of Abraham was never about blood. It is about what you did. The Lord says as much.

Quote:

If you check those scriptural verses I quoted above, you see God promising to bring them "back" from the lands where they have been exiled and scattered. That sounds a lot more like people who have been banished and forced to leave their homeland than it does a universal church.
Israel in the prophets is about the northern kingdom. For example, in Isaiah 11, "He will gather the exiles of Israel" specifically is talking about the diaspora that happened when Israel was depopulated by the Assyrians in 2 Kings 17. That's why it says "the remnant of his people who remain from Assyria". Likewise Ezekiel 20 - "gather you out of the countries which you are scattered" is talking about restoring the lost tribes scattered by the Assyrians - "there all the house of Israel, all of them" is the key. ALL of Israel means all the tribes, which by the time of St Paul's writing had been gone for centuries. They were not Jews in diaspora, they were Israel tribes that had been destroyed, dead. That's what the prophecy of the dry bones is about - " these bones are the whole house of Israel" - the whole house, ALL the tribes. They were dead and gone.

And again in Ezekiel 37, the Lord explains it "I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel associated with him, and I will put them together with the stick of Judah. I will make them into a single stick, and they will become one in My hand." Meaning the northern tribes will be restored to Judah. And he goes on "I will take the Israelites out of the nations to which they have gone, and I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land."

This is NOT about Jews being Jews scattered after the Roman conquest. Those are all Judaeans, they are all Jews. It is about the tribes of Israel of the Northern Kingdom being lost to the point that they had become gentiles. Ezekiel 37 cannot be about Judaea, because it is explicitly about Ephraim, not Judah.

St Paul teaches that the gentiles coming from the nations to faith in Christ, in Yawheh, ARE these lost tribes. That's why he says "Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking". Not the Judaeans. St Paul always makes a distinction between the Judaeans, Israel, and All Israel. The lost tribes are the branches broken off. The gentiles coming in are grafted in, "and in this way all Israel will be saved."

Jeremiah 29 is about the Judaean exile in Persia and their subsequent return. That already happened.
Zobel
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Quote:

Israel made them a blanket offer of citizenship, and at least 150,000 Arabs chose to take it. Of course, many others chose instead to collaborate with other Arabs in waging a war of extermination against Israel, but what do you want Israel to have done about that?
History didn't start in whatever year you're talking about it.

The Zionists immigrated en masse to a place which already had people living there. When that became illegal, they did it illegally. When they didn't get what they wanted through legal means, they resorted to mob violence and terrorism. When the UN and British stewards threw their hands up, war broke out, and they drove out the civilian population.

It is ethnic cleansing. The Arabs didn't start it. They're going to lose. But this does not give Israel moral justification.

The Arabs could just as rightly say "I'm not arguing that ethnic cleansing is always good, but when that ethnicity's fundamental value is to want yours gone or subjugated as a permanent minority and political underclass, and they reject multiple attempts at a peaceful settlement, then their forced removal becomes a matter of national self-defense and thus morally justified."

If you can't say both have equal claim, you're just a hypocrite. I on the other hand say everyone sucks here.

Quote:

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. You mean what would I do if Mexico somehow reconquered Texas and started persecuting us gringos?
yes. what if they immigrated in numbers, illegally and otherwise, and started bombing hotels, market places, police stations? Throwing grenades at workers lined up to go into their jobs or at buses? All good?
UTExan
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Zobel said:


Quote:

Actually Jew comes from Judah, the eldest son of Jacob. And just as then, so today, there are black Jews. In fact, it was a major IDF operation to bring African Jews from Ethiopia to Israel. You see them today in the IDF and the Border Police as well as everyday life in business and commerce.
Of course Jew comes from Judah, but they weren't Jews in the past. They were Israel, and Hebrews. They became "Jews" when Israel split into Israel and Judah, and the tribes who were a part of the kingdom of Judah were Judaeans.

This history doesn't begin in the twentieth century.

When Israel was formed, it was not just the family of Jacob. It also included people from other tribes and nations - Midianites, Canaanites, Egyptians, and Libyans. The point wasn't to say "black people can be Jewish" the point was that Israel - the Israel of God - was never about blood. Being a child of Abraham was never about blood. It is about what you did. The Lord says as much.

Quote:

If you check those scriptural verses I quoted above, you see God promising to bring them "back" from the lands where they have been exiled and scattered. That sounds a lot more like people who have been banished and forced to leave their homeland than it does a universal church.
Israel in the prophets is about the northern kingdom. For example, in Isaiah 11, "He will gather the exiles of Israel" specifically is talking about the diaspora that happened when Israel was depopulated by the Assyrians in 2 Kings 17. That's why it says "the remnant of his people who remain from Assyria". Likewise Ezekiel 20 - "gather you out of the countries which you are scattered" is talking about restoring the lost tribes scattered by the Assyrians - "there all the house of Israel, all of them" is the key. ALL of Israel means all the tribes, which by the time of St Paul's writing had been gone for centuries. They were not Jews in diaspora, they were Israel tribes that had been destroyed, dead. That's what the prophecy of the dry bones is about - " these bones are the whole house of Israel" - the whole house, ALL the tribes. They were dead and gone.

And again in Ezekiel 37, the Lord explains it "I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel associated with him, and I will put them together with the stick of Judah. I will make them into a single stick, and they will become one in My hand." Meaning the northern tribes will be restored to Judah. And he goes on "I will take the Israelites out of the nations to which they have gone, and I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land."

This is NOT about Jews being Jews scattered after the Roman conquest. Those are all Judaeans, they are all Jews. It is about the tribes of Israel of the Northern Kingdom being lost to the point that they had become gentiles. Ezekiel 37 cannot be about Judaea, because it is explicitly about Ephraim, not Judah.

St Paul teaches that the gentiles coming from the nations to faith in Christ, in Yawheh, ARE these lost tribes. That's why he says "Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking". Not the Judaeans. St Paul always makes a distinction between the Judaeans, Israel, and All Israel. The lost tribes are the branches broken off. The gentiles coming in are grafted in, "and in this way all Israel will be saved."

Jeremiah 29 is about the Judaean exile in Persia and their subsequent return. That already happened.


Nope and nope. You replace Israel with the church when in fact Paul says in Romans 11:12 "Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration bring?" (NET)

Why would Israel need to be restored if they were the church? And why take a preterist position regarding Biblical prophecy when many of these prophecies have yet to be fulfilled? Ezekiel 38 and 39 for instance, have yet to be fulfilled. The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17:1) has yet to be fulfilled.
Zechariah 12:6-
" In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own placeJerusalem."
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
Zobel
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AG
Israel has multiple meanings in the scriptures.

Israel is a person.
Israel is a nation - the people of God.
Israel is a kingdom that rebelled against Judah, and those tribes.

Israel the nation that is the people of God is the same as the church. The same scriptures spoken to Israel in the Torah are spoken to gentile Christians by St Paul and St Peter, e.g., "you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood".
Discussed here:
https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3242460

Israel the kingdom and its tribes were destroyed. They were scattered by the Assyrians. That is why they needed to be restored.

Again - read Ezekiel 37. Joseph / Ephraim and the tribes of Israel associated with him are not Judah. NONE of the Jews scattered in the diaspora are of those tribes. It literally cannot be talking about the Judaeans - the Judaeans are all from Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

UTExan
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Then I suggest we let events play out over the next few decades or so. By your logic the current state of Israel did NOT come into existence because of prophecy, but by fiat, opportunism and "invasive Zionism".
We will likely never agree on the Biblical scriptures regarding Israel and the Jews, much less the Rapture or dispensationalism. In the end, it really does not matter because God will do what God intends to do.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
BonfireNerd04
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Zobel said:

History didn't start in whatever year you're talking about it.
History didn't start with the Bar Kochba Revolt, either?

Zobel said:

The Zionists immigrated en masse to a place which already had people living there.
And, how exactly is that any worse from China settling Tibet with Han people, the USSR settling stolen Finnish territory with Russians, or the USA resettling White people on seized Indian land?

History is full of conquests and migrations, but for some reason Palestinian apologists only want to talk about one.

Zobel said:

When that became illegal, they did it illegally.
So, why did the British restrict immigration to Palestine, again?

Zobel said:

When they didn't get what they wanted through legal means, they resorted to mob violence and terrorism.
I'm sure that King George III would use similar terminology to describe the American Patriots. I guess the one consist lesson from history is: If you want to start a revolution, you need to make damn sure that you can win it.

Zobel said:

When the UN and British stewards threw their hands up, war broke out,
Funny that you say "war broke out" passively, instead of "the Arabs started a war".

Zobel said:

and they drove out the civilian population.
A population which Israel rationally saw as an existential thread.

Zobel said:

The Arabs could just as rightly say "I'm not arguing that ethnic cleansing is always good, but when that ethnicity's fundamental value is to want yours gone or subjugated as a permanent minority and political underclass, and they reject multiple attempts at a peaceful settlement, then their forced removal becomes a matter of national self-defense and thus morally justified."

Except for the minor detail that the Jews accepted the 1947 UN partition plan, instead of insisting on a racially pure state "from the river to the sea".

Zobel said:

yes. what if they immigrated in numbers, illegally and otherwise, and started bombing hotels, market places, police stations? Throwing grenades at workers lined up to go into their jobs or at buses? All good?
Of course not. We should deport them.

And if Mexico were persistent for 75 years in launching rockets and paragliders onto Texas civilian population, it might be worth considering permanently occupying part of Mexico to ensure that they couldn't attack again.
Zobel
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AG
The difference is, in the case of Israel the "Mexicans" won and you're cheering them driving out the gringos.

Quote:

History is full of conquests and migrations, but for some reason Palestinian apologists only want to talk about one.
I'll talk about any of them. Conquest and genocide is wrong. Now you go.
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