Free Will & Salvation

9,026 Views | 183 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by BusterAg
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Yes.

Romans 9:21-23
English Standard Version
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

In Paul's introduction, he is addressing "the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus."

I guess that would be my answer of who "us" is.
How do you interpret all men. Seems much more definitive.
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dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Yes.

Romans 9:21-23
English Standard Version
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
The key words there are "what if". Paul never states God did that. It is like you have predetermined that Calvinism is correct and read all Scripture through that lens.

I actually tried to make Calvinism make sense. But reading the Bible in its entirety a lot of times convinced me otherwise. I could be wrong and acknowledge that. Does not affect my salvation,

This discussion has been ongoing for centuries. And we will not solve it here.
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The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

Yes.

Romans 9:21-23
English Standard Version
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory


What is God patiently enduring? Wouldn't He be enduring His own choice of intentionally not saving the damned? "Those people that I intentionally have not helped are really pissing me off!"
Mostly Peaceful
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Yes.

Romans 9:21-23
English Standard Version
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
The key words there are "what if". Paul never states God did that.
I think that's the point. Paul is answering the objection he knows he is going to face over what he just said about Jacob and Esau, but he can't comprehend the relationship between God's sovereignty and free will either. He isn't saying this is what God does, but he is asking so what if it is? What if God may do something that seems totally unjust to us? Does that mean He's unjust? Of course not. Who are we to question His judgment?

In his conclusion, Paul wants his readers to consider this, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord,or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."


dermdoc
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Mostly Peaceful said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Yes.

Romans 9:21-23
English Standard Version
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
The key words there are "what if". Paul never states God did that.
I think that's the point. Paul is answering the objection he knows he is going to face over what he just said about Jacob and Esau, but he can't comprehend the relationship between God's sovereignty and free will either. He isn't saying this is what God does, but he is asking so what if it is? What if God may do something that seems totally unjust to us? Does that mean He's unjust? Of course not. Who are we to question His judgment?

In his conclusion, Paul wants his readers to consider this, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord,or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."



I agree completely. And it is not a question of His judgement. It is a question of His character.

I believe Paul is awestruck that God could treat us that way but because of His mercy and love He does not.

And that theme is echoed over and over again in the OT. Paul was a learned Jew who would have thought in those terms.
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10andBOUNCE
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The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Yes.

Romans 9:21-23
English Standard Version
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory


What is God patiently enduring? Wouldn't He be enduring His own choice of intentionally not saving the damned? "Those people that I intentionally have not helped are really pissing me off!"
Again, we can't always put all of this into human terms so we can understand deeply spiritual things too great for our own understanding.

There may be a concise answer here but all I know is that there are things beyond our comprehension.
dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Yes.

Romans 9:21-23
English Standard Version
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory


What is God patiently enduring? Wouldn't He be enduring His own choice of intentionally not saving the damned? "Those people that I intentionally have not helped are really pissing me off!"
Again, we can't always put all of this into human terms so we can understand deeply spiritual things too great for our own understanding.

There may be a concise answer here but all I know is that there are things beyond our comprehension.
Completely agree. That is why how we perceive God's character, even as limited as we are, is so important. If you believe in double predestination, that is a whole different character than what I see is revealed in Jesus Christ.
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BusterAg
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AG
You guys might like looking into the overviews of the existentialists. Kierkegaard and Barth are my favorites, but best to stick to summaries than dig through all of the verbose writings of these two.

Keep in mind that, though God is omniscient, we have examples of him changing his mind throughout the Bible.

I think an example here is the story of Ahab. 1 Kings 21.

He was a king, Jezebel was his queen.

He wanted Naboth's vineyard, but Naboth didn't want to sell his vineyard to Ahab. When Jezebel learns of this, she frames Naboth for blasphemy, and has Naboth stoned to death, and encourages Ahab to go and take the vineyard.

While Ahab is taking possession of the vineyard, Elisha tells Ahab that he will die in the vineyard, and his blood will be licked up by dogs there, and wipe out all of Ahab's decendants.

Ahab was very sorry, put on sackcloth, repented.

God tells Elisha, hey, look Ahab repented. Because of that, God changed his mind, and told Elisha that the destruction of Ahab's family wouldn't happen in his lifetime, and that the prophecy of him dying at the same place Naboth was stoned did not come to fruition.

Did God lie to Ahab? No. IMO, God told Ahab what was going to happen, and had every intention on fulfilling his promise. But, Ahab had free will, and Ahab chose to repent. So, God changed his mind, and tricked him into dying in battle on a future date.

There are many other examples. Jonah and Nineveh, Naoh and the flood, Moses interceding for Israel, among others.

These are stories of God making a prophesy, which he obviously knows will pass, and then changes his mind about the prophesy based on the repentance of sin. I don't see how you can see all of these examples and come to the conclusion that salvation for us is completely different, where God made up our minds for us on whether or not we will accept salvation. I just doesn't compute for me. I guess you could weasel it in there that God knew he was going to change his prophesy, and that is why he gave it, but that just doesn't seem to read into the character that we are reading about in these stories.

So, no, I do think that we have the ability to accept or reject God's grace. It assumes that there is some amount of chaos in the world, and that "everything happens for a reason" is not necessarily true. The fact that free will and omnipotence both exist is a great mystery, and something a temporal, finite human mind can really understand. Soren Kierkegaard described this as the "qualitative infinite difference" between God and man. God is not bound by time, or 4 dimensions, and is not limited quantitatively. He is perfectly God, so can be perfectly qualitative, and still be right. The failure of us being able to wrap our brains around that is a biological failure of our capabilities, not some paradox than can't be true.
 
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