rak1693 said:

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Both as in predestination and free will.

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Oh I agree with them. Both concepts are Biblical. But you have to view them through the lens of the character of God as reveled in Jesus. I do not think double pre destination is Biblical based upon the revealed
Character of God through Jesus.

10andBOUNCE said:

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The question is why you chose and others did not, given similar circumstances.

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Because that is what free will means. We are presented information and we make a decision.
I can choose to be fat or thin. I can choose to drive or walk. Why is the decision to believe the Gospel different?

Who is this "Hod" you keep speaking of? Some other name for the Arminian God?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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And why won't the reformed posters respond to your question as to why would God set out to create men to be eternally tormented?

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Kind of an unfair way to state it. Sounds almost like gaslighting.

I have already stated that whether or not you believe in X, Y or Z type of agency for salvation, there will be men apart from God. Whether or not it is man choosing it or God, he is allowing some to perish.

Why is he doing so? It isn't for us to know.

Romans 9:14-23
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

Lord Answers Job
Job 38:1-7
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Dress for action[a] like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements, surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job's Confession and Repentance
Job 42:1-3
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.

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Ahh. We don't know why

But you're sure you're one of the elect?

The Lord is the only one who knows who is written in the Book of Life. So, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain. We can hold a high degree of confidence however. Just my two cents shooting from the hip.

I find it interesting that you can go to a church where the staff holds reformed beliefs, but you may not be able to tell their reformed theology from their sermons. However, when in a small group or in getting to know the staff or leadership, you come to understand their true beliefs. It seems they struggle to preach what they hold internally - because they likely struggle with it too, but want so bad to think they are part of a predetermined few called the elect. If they did preach their theology, a quick synopsis of such a sermon might be something like: I'm glad all of you showed up today. I've got some great news for very few of you and some terrible news for the vast majority of you. There is a God and His only begotten Son is Jesus. You and all mankind are really bad creatures who are wrapped up in sin. Because of sin, Jesus died on a cross to pay for the sins of some people. However, Jesus only died on the cross for very few people. Those people may not even have wanted anything to do with Jesus, but that doesn't matter because He chose them to be saved. If you are one of these chosen who have somehow won the eternal lotto, go live whatever type of life you want to here on earth, because you have been predetermined to go to heaven for eternity. The bad news, He didn't die for the vast majority of mankind and those people are predestined to go spend eternity in a place called hell. If you are one of these unfortunate people, there is nothing you can do. You have no hope. You can't trust in Jesus even if you want to - because your eternal destiny has been determined. So, you better enjoy your time on earth because your eternity will be a literal hell. I know this won't go over well with my reformed believers, the replies should be interesting.

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Lord is the only one who knows who is written in the Book of Life. So, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain. We can hold a high degree of confidence however. Just my two cents shooting from the hip.

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Why are you highly confident you're one of the elect?

How 'bout your wife and kids? How confident are you they are among the elect?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The question is why you chose and others did not, given similar circumstances.

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Because that is what free will means. We are presented information and we make a decision.
I can choose to be fat or thin. I can choose to drive or walk. Why is the decision to believe the Gospel different?

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What we choose is always driven by our desires. So what has shaped your desires more than others in a similar environment that allowed you to make the choice to submit the Christ?

Agreed.

Even if your post can come across as a little less than charitable to the reformed posters here, the content is correct. Even if we changed the hypothetical homily to "Jesus died to save most people" we still end up with the fact that some segment of the population is lost due to the fault of Adam and Eve and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. Jesus brought a life boat to the ship wreck and intentionally left them behind.

I think most of the unsaved people at this point should be more than happy to live life however they want. What's the harm? Even the saved person. You're going no matter what, so why show up for church anymore? Or tithe? Or any of that? And if the answer is "God has called you and you can't help but want to follow Him" then why would any feelings towards sin be feelings we shouldn't act on?

I think most of us know, deep down, that this just doesn't line up with our lived realities. I know, as a Christian, I am actively choosing to do good or evil. Do those good actions get me to Heaven? No. Am I doing good because it just sounds fun to me? No. God is the one laying it all on my heart but he's not animating me in a way that I have no control over. In a weird way this lines up with materialists and how they believe we don't really have any control over our destinies. We just react to how we feel vs what God is making us do.

If this doesn't align with reformed posters beliefs here, I'm happy to be corrected.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The question is why you chose and others did not, given similar circumstances.

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Because that is what free will means. We are presented information and we make a decision.
I can choose to be fat or thin. I can choose to drive or walk. Why is the decision to believe the Gospel different?

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What we choose is always driven by our desires. So what has shaped your desires more than others in a similar environment that allowed you to make the choice to submit the Christ?

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Aligns perfectly with my last post. It's the same thought process as atheist materialists.

Why would the Bible and church fathers constantly tell us to say no to our fleshly desires if all we are are sums of our personal preferences at the time?

Captain Pablo said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Lord is the only one who knows who is written in the Book of Life. So, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain. We can hold a high degree of confidence however. Just my two cents shooting from the hip.

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Why are you highly confident you're one of the elect?

How 'bout your wife and kids? How confident are you they are among the elect?

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Because I believe in my heart and have professed with my mouth that Jesus is my savior and Lord.

Both my wife and son are in the same boat. However my 10 yo son has really yet to have his desires and affections changed by his recent professed faith. So while I believe his profession was genuine, the evidence will hopefully follow soon as proof.

The Banned said:

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I know, as a Christian, I am actively choosing to do good or evil. Do those good actions get me to Heaven? No. Am I doing good because it just sounds fun to me? No. God is the one laying it all on my heart but he's not animating me in a way that I have no control over.

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No disagreements here.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The question is why you chose and others did not, given similar circumstances.

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Because that is what free will means. We are presented information and we make a decision.
I can choose to be fat or thin. I can choose to drive or walk. Why is the decision to believe the Gospel different?

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What we choose is always driven by our desires. So what has shaped your desires more than others in a similar environment that allowed you to make the choice to submit the Christ?

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I had a desire to know God. I really do not know why this is so hard.

I am trying to go a little deeper. Why is it you have a desire to follow Christ and others to rebel?

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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I know, as a Christian, I am actively choosing to do good or evil. Do those good actions get me to Heaven? No. Am I doing good because it just sounds fun to me? No. God is the one laying it all on my heart but he's not animating me in a way that I have no control over.

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No disagreements here.

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Then how is actively choosing to do good or evil different than actively choosing to believe in the faith or not?

10andBOUNCE said:

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I am trying to go a little deeper. Why is it you have a desire to follow Christ and others to rebel?

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The same reason I make any decision. I have desires and I make a decision.
Why do I choose to eat Blue Bell ice cream? Or go to Aggie fb and baseball.

I just do. Now maybe that was predestined by God that I like those things.

This is getting nonsensical.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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I know, as a Christian, I am actively choosing to do good or evil. Do those good actions get me to Heaven? No. Am I doing good because it just sounds fun to me? No. God is the one laying it all on my heart but he's not animating me in a way that I have no control over.

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No disagreements here.

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Then how is actively choosing to do good or evil different than actively choosing to believe in the faith or not?

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The difference is that in our fallen state prior to regeneration, we have no moral ability to do good (for God) and are dead to sin. It is only God who can instill in us a new heart

Ezekiel 36:26-27
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2 is really a closed case for me. We were dead and the Spirit worked in us and made us alive. It was not our own doing and nothing we can boast of.

If it is my choice ultimately, surely I can boast a little bit, right?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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And why won't the reformed posters respond to your question as to why would God set out to create men to be eternally tormented?

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Kind of an unfair way to state it. Sounds almost like gaslighting.

I have already stated that whether or not you believe in X, Y or Z type of agency for salvation, there will be men apart from God. Whether or not it is man choosing it or God, he is allowing some to perish.

Why is he doing so? It isn't for us to know.

Romans 9:14-23
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

Lord Answers Job
Job 38:1-7
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Dress for action[a] like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements, surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job's Confession and Repentance
Job 42:1-3
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.

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How is it gaslighting?

Double predestination is pretty clearly defined. At some point, if you are a dp proponent, you have to say God is creating beings he will never give a chance for salvation so they are doomed to hell. And they have no chance to have any other destiny.
It does not matter why or anything else. The end result is the same and makes God into a monster. There can be no other conclusions in my opinion.

And I would never let my kids or grand kids grow up with Reformed theology because I think it gives them a horrific picture of the character of God.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I am trying to go a little deeper. Why is it you have a desire to follow Christ and others to rebel?

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The same reason I make any decision. I have desires and I make a decision.
Why do I choose to eat Blue Bell ice cream? Or Aggie fb and baseball.

I just do. Now maybe that was predestined by God that I like those things.

This is getting nonsensical.

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I don't understand why its nonsensical to try and understand why we do the things we do.

God is god and there is not anything he could ever do that would make him into a monster. As long as He is glorified, that's all that matters.

dermdoc said:

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why would God set out to create men to be eternally tormented

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This phrasing is essentially labeling my beliefs as accepting the false idea that God "sets out" to create men to be eternally damned. I reject that completely.

Edit: not your quote, but answering why this is essentially gaslighting

10andBOUNCE said:

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God is god and there is not anything he could ever do that would make him into a monster. As long as He is glorified, that's all that matters.

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So He is glorified when people He created have no chance to not suffer eternal torment. How is He glorified by that? Sounds like Molech.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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why would God set out to create men to be eternally tormented

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This phrasing is essentially labeling my beliefs as accepting the false idea that God "sets out" to create men to be eternally damned. I reject that completely.

Edit: not your quote, but answering why this is essentially gaslighting

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Okay passes over. Whatever the end result is the same. Whether active or passive. And God created those poor damned folks.

Refer back to Job...good luck trying to stand toe to toe with God and understanding his ways.

We can do a proof text quote off if we want, but trying to avoid that because each verse comes down to interpretation. There are plenty of verses I can turn to that show one must have faith as an action, not a possession or state of being thrust upon someone.

To your last point, no. Why would anyone who has come to believe in Jesus boast about it? Part of believing in Jesus is knowing you didn't earn it. I chose to let God have any glory my life gives Him. From my perspective, it's way easier to boast about being one of the lucky ones He loved enough to pick over those losers He left to rot.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Lord is the only one who knows who is written in the Book of Life. So, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain. We can hold a high degree of confidence however. Just my two cents shooting from the hip.

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Why are you highly confident you're one of the elect?

How 'bout your wife and kids? How confident are you they are among the elect?

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Because I believe in my heart and have professed with my mouth that Jesus is my savior and Lord.

Both my wife and son are in the same boat. However my 10 yo son has really yet to have his desires and affections changed by his recent professed faith. So while I believe his profession was genuine, the evidence will hopefully follow soon as proof.

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Did you make that profession of your own choice? Was it your decision?

But what if God has chosen for you to not be one of the elect? If God has made that decision for you, would not anything you do be futile?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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why would God set out to create men to be eternally tormented

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This phrasing is essentially labeling my beliefs as accepting the false idea that God "sets out" to create men to be eternally damned. I reject that completely.

Edit: not your quote, but answering why this is essentially gaslighting

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In your belief structure, did God intentionally create Adam and Eve to sin or no? If allowing people to go to hell is to show the world His glory, He had to intentionally introduce sin into the world, no? If He is not relying on our cooperation with Him, then He had to have been the active power in them choosing the fruit, yes?

If He intentionally brought sin into the world, then it doesn't matter if He passes people over or not. If He didn't, then Adam and Eve had the ability to reject Him

Captain Pablo said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Lord is the only one who knows who is written in the Book of Life. So, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain. We can hold a high degree of confidence however. Just my two cents shooting from the hip.

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Why are you highly confident you're one of the elect?

How 'bout your wife and kids? How confident are you they are among the elect?

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Because I believe in my heart and have professed with my mouth that Jesus is my savior and Lord.

Both my wife and son are in the same boat. However my 10 yo son has really yet to have his desires and affections changed by his recent professed faith. So while I believe his profession was genuine, the evidence will hopefully follow soon as proof.

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Did you make that profession of your own choice? Was it your decision?

But what if God has chosen for you to not be one of the elect? If God has made that decision for you, would not anything you do be futile?

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I would add, if you lose the faith 20 years from now (as many have) does that mean this entire time you were just deluded?

Will have to circle back later. Friday Happy Hour is calling. Even reformed guys can have a little fun.

Peace to everyone.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Refer back to Job...good luck trying to stand toe to toe with God and understanding his ways.

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Nobody can stand toe to toe with God. When I stand before him I will ask for mercy. Scripture says He will show mercy if asked.

The Banned said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Lord is the only one who knows who is written in the Book of Life. So, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain. We can hold a high degree of confidence however. Just my two cents shooting from the hip.

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Why are you highly confident you're one of the elect?

How 'bout your wife and kids? How confident are you they are among the elect?

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Because I believe in my heart and have professed with my mouth that Jesus is my savior and Lord.

Both my wife and son are in the same boat. However my 10 yo son has really yet to have his desires and affections changed by his recent professed faith. So while I believe his profession was genuine, the evidence will hopefully follow soon as proof.

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Did you make that profession of your own choice? Was it your decision?

But what if God has chosen for you to not be one of the elect? If God has made that decision for you, would not anything you do be futile?

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I would add, if you lose the faith 20 years from now (as many have) does that mean this entire time you were just deluded?

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Well, yeah, but even before that, if the decision for your damnation was made long before your birth, what is the point of professing faith?

If your damnation was already predestined, would any subsequent professional faith not be futile?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Will have to circle back later. Friday Happy Hour is calling. Even reformed guys can have a little fun.

Peace to everyone.

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I am ready for a bourbon myself. Have a great weekend.

If there are only two potential places - heaven/hell - for an eternal soul to go and some are predetermined to go to heaven then the others are predetermined to go to hell no matter what word gymnastics (pass over) are used. The reason pass over is said is because reformed feel uncomfortable with a god that has predestined most of his like kind creations to a terrible eternity in hell apart from Him.

I have determined that I was elected to enjoy the pre destined Angel's Envy.

My question what responsibility does a Christian have who drives off the lost through his/her behavior?