Nice summation.The Banned said:PabloSerna said:Here is the quote that seems pretty clear to me:The Banned said:PabloSerna said:
I quoted.
You quoted that they did not hear the gospel of Christ. You will not find a quote that it is not Christ doing the saving. We acknowledge the irregular way they may make it to Heaven, but they will still get there through Jesus. You've stretched the quote into falsehood
"This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience those too may achieve eternal salvation."
There is no stretching. There are some people, as was the audience that the Pope was visiting with that day who are not Christians. He was speaking from this part of the catechism- that is my understanding of the situation.
Vatican II document Gaudium Et Spes teaches similarly on the possibility of salvation:
All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery. (22)
Christ died for all men. United to the paschal mystery. If someone outside of the church is saved, it's still Jesus doing the saving. It shouldn't be difficult for you to amend your prior statement. Can people outside the church go to heaven? Yes. Can they get there without Jesus' death and resurrection? No. To say otherwise is to go against church teaching.
All religions lead to God - Pope Francis
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So I guess there's no way you're going to acknowledge that your statement about what you said I posted was innacurrate? Humility is the foundation of all virtues.PabloSerna said:
Simple question- can man reach eternal salvation outside the church?
Since I know it's pointless to try and get you to directly answer a question unless it serves your agenda, I will answer your question directly:
There is NO limit to what God's grace can achieve if God chosses to pour it out upon someone. So, obviously, the answer to that very specific question must be yes. But we're not talking about what God CAN do. God CAN do anything other than contradict himself or violate his divine nature. We're talking about what God has revealed that he will do.
But none of that says anything about the Pope's inarticulation of what the church actually teaches about this subject. How many times have we had this type of argument because of something he says off the cuff that then gets misconstrued and twisted due to its ambiguity? He has a DUTY to be clear and avoid ambiguities that lead to confusion. I don't recall EVER having arguments like this with fellow Catholics about anything Benedict or JP2 stated. This is a Francis issue plain and simple.
For my fellow Catholics, help me with this please:
As to the question that seems to be behind all of this, doesn't it all start with "does man have free will?" Does God respect each person's free will? If someone is truly invincibly ignorant of the truth, as the church has defined invincible ignorance, but lives the Gospel to the best of their understanding, can they be saved? I think the church has said yes, it is possible. But I think it's also worth pointing out a couple of things about what the church says about the eternal desitiny of each person. The church has never definitively declared that any person is in hell. That doesn't mean no person is in hell. Moreover, the church has never said any person is in heaven other than declared saints. That doesn't mean no person is in heaven other than declared saints. The absence of affirmation is not affirmation of absence. It's simply silence.
If someone who is invincibly ignorant dies and is welcomed by God into his reward, then that is by the grace of God, just like everyone of us who is not incivibly ignorant will only get to heaven by the grace of God. In either case, it is entirely by the grace of God. If someone who is invincibly ignorant lives a life of what is authentic Christian charity and loves God and neighbor exactly as commanded by Jesus is that not the way, the truth and the life? If I feed the hungry, give alms to the poor, clothe the naked and visit the imprisoned and do so because I genuinely will the good of the other, am I not following Jesus even if I don't utter his name? Am I wrong in thinking that the church says that those genuine acts of Christian charity are not possible without the love of God in someone's heart; i.e. the grace of God? I have always thought that the church teaches that God will not damn someone for something that they could not understand (invincible ignorance).
Isn't all of this the other side of the "properly formed conscience" coin? There are very few people in the world today who can claim to be invincibly ignorant.
I am reminded of St. Paul's bolded words in Romans 2 below.
Quote:
Romans 2
12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
PabloSerna said:
You wrote, "Can they get there without Jesus' death and resurrection? No. To say otherwise is to go against church teaching."
Where did I say otherwise?
ETA: cleaned up my question for clarity
Right here:
ETA: You wrote, "Christians hold that Jesus alone is the path to God."
This is the error
If you meant differently, now would be a great time to clear that up
"[Religions] are like different languages in order to arrive at God, but God is God for all. Since God is God for all, then we are all children of God."
I thought the church taught that only baptized Christians are children of God, but that all persons are made in the image and likeness of God?
I thought the church taught that only baptized Christians are children of God, but that all persons are made in the image and likeness of God?
Jesus' "death and resurrection" is known only to those who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ entrusted to his Holy Church and proclaimed to the world as part of the mission.
That is right out of the CCC 849.
But we are talking about people who have not heard the Good News. These are the people, kids attending an interfaith gathering, which that affirmation does not apply (CCC 847). Therefore my point remains valid. God saves them through his grace. It actually reads, "moved by grace"
That is right out of the CCC 849.
But we are talking about people who have not heard the Good News. These are the people, kids attending an interfaith gathering, which that affirmation does not apply (CCC 847). Therefore my point remains valid. God saves them through his grace. It actually reads, "moved by grace"
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
PabloSerna said:
Jesus' "death and resurrection" is known only to those who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ entrusted to his Holy Church and proclaimed to the world as part of the mission.
That is right out of the CCC 849.
But we are talking about people who have not heard the Good News. These are the people, kids attending an interfaith gathering, which that affirmation does not apply (CCC 847). Therefore my point remains valid. God saves them through his grace. It actually reads, "moved by grace"
So those people, who have not heard the good news, are not saved by Christ?
Quo Vadis? said:PabloSerna said:
Jesus' "death and resurrection" is known only to those who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ entrusted to his Holy Church and proclaimed to the world as part of the mission.
That is right out of the CCC 849.
But we are talking about people who have not heard the Good News. These are the people, kids attending an interfaith gathering, which that affirmation does not apply (CCC 847). Therefore my point remains valid. God saves them through his grace. It actually reads, "moved by grace"
So those people, who have not heard the good news, are not saved by Christ?
Pablo, as this is what I'm getting at, I'll wait for you to respond to this one.
You and I would say "Jesus" is God per our understanding of the Trinity and we would agree on the salvific sacrifice that Jesus accomplished in his time here on earth.Quo Vadis? said:PabloSerna said:
Jesus' "death and resurrection" is known only to those who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ entrusted to his Holy Church and proclaimed to the world as part of the mission.
That is right out of the CCC 849.
But we are talking about people who have not heard the Good News. These are the people, kids attending an interfaith gathering, which that affirmation does not apply (CCC 847). Therefore my point remains valid. God saves them through his grace. It actually reads, "moved by grace"
So those people, who have not heard the good news, are not saved by Christ?
Some others may say "Allah" -and CCC 847 would allow that they are "moved by grace" to eternal salvation.
Some others may say "Yahweh" -and CCC 847 would allow that they are "moved by grace" to eternal salvation.
Some others may say "Bhagavan" -and CCC 847 would allow that they are "moved by grace" to eternal salvation.
All of that to say, Jesus is God and God saves.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
It would allow that they may be. But we affirm that they are saved in spite of their ignorance, absolutely not because of it.
Good point. CCC 847 explicitly says, "may achieve eternal salvation."
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This horse is dead.
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This horse is dead.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
There has long been a part of Protestantism saying that a huge bureaucracy is not needed to interpret the simple message of the bible. Sounds like this Pope is coming around to a similar idea, except he still wants the bureaucracy and to be in charge of it.
And what "part" is that?
ETA: There are 5,600 Bishops world-wide. There are 1.390 billion Catholics.
ETA: There are 5,600 Bishops world-wide. There are 1.390 billion Catholics.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
The congregationalist part for sure.
PabloSerna said:
Good point. CCC 847 explicitly says, "may achieve eternal salvation."
+++
This horse is dead.
Can you reference which bible verses CCC847 is based upon??
Bighunter43 said:PabloSerna said:
Good point. CCC 847 explicitly says, "may achieve eternal salvation."
+++
This horse is dead.
Can you reference which bible verses CCC847 is based upon??
Romans 2:14-16. John 15:22-24. I think there are a couple others but these are the couple I remember being pointed to.
And to be clear, it points to the chance that Jesus may save them in an irregular way. It is not something any Christian can rest soundly on.
I would add:
This is Paul speaking in Athens. The RCC cites this among other passages in the 1965 document, Nostra Aetate, as a basis for understanding that man seeks as its end, God.
Acts 17:27, "God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."
Here is the passage about the Law written on the hearts of mankind:
Rom 2:14-16, "(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
This is Paul speaking in Athens. The RCC cites this among other passages in the 1965 document, Nostra Aetate, as a basis for understanding that man seeks as its end, God.
Acts 17:27, "God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."
Here is the passage about the Law written on the hearts of mankind:
Rom 2:14-16, "(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Just read this article that does a way better job of stitching together the various documents and quotes from the RCC's history regarding salvation outside the church (LINK).
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
I'm not agreeing with this even remotely…IF someone could attain Heaven by just being "good" as CCC 847 is pushing…then there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. One could simply just qualify as going to Heaven if they are deemed a "good" person. It doesn't work that way..we are all born sinners, and asking Christ for forgiveness and accepting Him is the ONLY way!! The verses listed just clarify that the Jews had the written law, while Gentiles didn't, but have a conscience to help them distinguish between right and wrong…as such, all are required to seek Christ for Salvation. The guy on the island that never heard of Christ argument …well he will still be held accountable in the end. No man will be able to escape God's judgement….either you've accepted Jesus as Savior or you haven't!! Romans 1:20 says that people are without excuse. This is why the need for missions to go spread the "good news" of Christ is so vital….IF one could just qualify by being of good conscience then what would be the point of going to tell them about Jesus? They wouldn't need to know…in other words, if God gives special treatment to those who haven't ever heard the Word…then why go tell them?? Again….this argument in CCC 847 doesn't hold water…and isn't backed by the entire Gospel!!
You're missing a huge factor: the incarnation. Christ saves mankind by joining His divine nature to human nature. All will be saved from death.
Bighunter43 said:
I'm not agreeing with this even remotely…IF someone could attain Heaven by just being "good" as CCC 847 is pushing…then there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. One could simply just qualify as going to Heaven if they are deemed a "good" person. It doesn't work that way..we are all born sinners, and asking Christ for forgiveness and accepting Him is the ONLY way!! The verses listed just clarify that the Jews had the written law, while Gentiles didn't, but have a conscience to help them distinguish between right and wrong…as such, all are required to seek Christ for Salvation. The guy on the island that never heard of Christ argument …well he will still be held accountable in the end. No man will be able to escape God's judgement….either you've accepted Jesus as Savior or you haven't!! Romans 1:20 says that people are without excuse. This is why the need for missions to go spread the "good news" of Christ is so vital….IF one could just qualify by being of good conscience then what would be the point of going to tell them about Jesus? They wouldn't need to know…in other words, if God gives special treatment to those who haven't ever heard the Word…then why go tell them?? Again….this argument in CCC 847 doesn't hold water…and isn't backed by the entire Gospel!!
You're making a stronger claim than the Catholic Church is making. If someone who has never heard of Jesus through no fault of their own nevertheless is seeking truth (Jesus is truth) we leave open the POSSIBILITY that Jesus will save these people in a unique way we don't fully understand. We also do not say that He does save them. It's one of those open questions that seems to line up with God's merciful nature. They genuinely seek truth. They believe there is a God they are supposed to serve. They just don't know His name. Maybe He saves them. Maybe He doesn't.
Because this is not something we can rely on or should even put a large amount of hope in, we should still continue to evangelize as we know it is the only certain way to get to Heaven. That we can speak confidently on.
The Banned said:Bighunter43 said:
I'm not agreeing with this even remotely…IF someone could attain Heaven by just being "good" as CCC 847 is pushing…then there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. One could simply just qualify as going to Heaven if they are deemed a "good" person. It doesn't work that way..we are all born sinners, and asking Christ for forgiveness and accepting Him is the ONLY way!! The verses listed just clarify that the Jews had the written law, while Gentiles didn't, but have a conscience to help them distinguish between right and wrong…as such, all are required to seek Christ for Salvation. The guy on the island that never heard of Christ argument …well he will still be held accountable in the end. No man will be able to escape God's judgement….either you've accepted Jesus as Savior or you haven't!! Romans 1:20 says that people are without excuse. This is why the need for missions to go spread the "good news" of Christ is so vital….IF one could just qualify by being of good conscience then what would be the point of going to tell them about Jesus? They wouldn't need to know…in other words, if God gives special treatment to those who haven't ever heard the Word…then why go tell them?? Again….this argument in CCC 847 doesn't hold water…and isn't backed by the entire Gospel!!
You're making a stronger claim than the Catholic Church is making. If someone who has never heard of Jesus through no fault of their own nevertheless is seeking truth (Jesus is truth) we leave open the POSSIBILITY that Jesus will save these people in a unique way we don't fully understand. We also do not say that He does save them. It's one of those open questions that seems to line up with God's merciful nature. They genuinely seek truth. They believe there is a God they are supposed to serve. They just don't know His name. Maybe He saves them. Maybe He doesn't.
Because this is not something we can rely on or should even put a large amount of hope in, we should still continue to evangelize as we know it is the only certain way to get to Heaven. That we can speak confidently on.
I agree to an extent with what you are saying…our ways certainly are not God's ways….i think if that person is seeking God, then God will find a way to get that person the Gospel. Just think of Cornelius the centurion in Acts….the Bible clearly said he was a good, God fearing man, but evidently that wasn't enough to get him to Heaven. God used a dream to reveal to Cornelius to send for Peter 30 miles away…Peter came, preached the Gospel and THEN Cornelius was saved. If Peter had never made it there, and Cornelius hadn't heard, would his being a God fearing man have been enough for salvation?? Jesus said plainly…"I am the way the truth and the life, and NO ONE comes to the Father BUT BY ME!" If the Bible is infallible, which it most certainly is, then shouldn't we take God at his own words? He didn't say, unless, you are on Plan B….in which you get a pass because you didn't know….I'm not trying to sound harsh, just that the Bible clearly states the WAY. I pray for people who haven't heard, and that God is able to get his message to them!! Certainly we serve a loving God, and God is also just. I would pray that the "man on the island" so to speak gets a chance to know Jesus through a revelation by God, and your right, maybe he does, and maybe he doesn't….that is entirely up to God. However ….we need to follow the great commission and go tell as many as we can. (But the interpretations in Romans 2:14-16 simply point to ALL whether Jew or Gentile will be held accountable.)
From a non-evangelical - Orthodox - perspective...
First is that the gospel is not what saves a person. The gospel is information, it is a story. It is a proclamation about a great victory won by a King, who is coming to restore justice. The story compels you to action - what must I do to be saved? - but the story itself is just information.
Christ Jesus saves, through faithfulness to Him, and through being joined to Him through the Incarnation and participating in His Resurrection and life by His grace. God does not have to get a person the Gospel. He doesn't have to do anything.
Second is that the scriptures don't say anything about "getting to Heaven". They do talk a great deal about a bodily resurrection.
Third is that being saved is not something that happens exclusively now or exclusively later, but is spoken of in the past, present, and future tenses in the scriptures.
As you correctly point out, Christ Jesus is the way - the One, exclusive way - but as St Gregory said, there are various modes of conduct according to the proportion of faith, but there is but One way, and that a narrow one, even though it is split into many parts. We should remember that the NT is written to Christians. Nowhere in it does it say that non-Christians go to hell. In fact I would ague that all of the warnings to eternal condemnation in it are given to the faithful.
The Great commission was not given to you and me as individuals, but to the Apostles, and to the Church collectively. As my priest is fond of saying, the Apostles were made fishers of men - we are the fish.
First is that the gospel is not what saves a person. The gospel is information, it is a story. It is a proclamation about a great victory won by a King, who is coming to restore justice. The story compels you to action - what must I do to be saved? - but the story itself is just information.
Christ Jesus saves, through faithfulness to Him, and through being joined to Him through the Incarnation and participating in His Resurrection and life by His grace. God does not have to get a person the Gospel. He doesn't have to do anything.
Second is that the scriptures don't say anything about "getting to Heaven". They do talk a great deal about a bodily resurrection.
Third is that being saved is not something that happens exclusively now or exclusively later, but is spoken of in the past, present, and future tenses in the scriptures.
As you correctly point out, Christ Jesus is the way - the One, exclusive way - but as St Gregory said, there are various modes of conduct according to the proportion of faith, but there is but One way, and that a narrow one, even though it is split into many parts. We should remember that the NT is written to Christians. Nowhere in it does it say that non-Christians go to hell. In fact I would ague that all of the warnings to eternal condemnation in it are given to the faithful.
The Great commission was not given to you and me as individuals, but to the Apostles, and to the Church collectively. As my priest is fond of saying, the Apostles were made fishers of men - we are the fish.
Of course the Gospel is the story of Christ and His dying on the cross to save one from the eternal damnation of hell that even Christ preached about. Still…one must admit they are a sinner, confess their sins, and accept Jesus as Savior….there is no other way. IF one cannot point to a specific time in their life when they made that decision….their "salvation" might not be real. I would urge all to examine their heart and seek Christ. And most do interpret the Great Commission as being meant for all believers.
There is no spinning. You simply do not understand some things and are reaching for a conclusion. I'm trying (unsuccessfully) to define for you the difference between a "path to God" and the fullness of the teachings of Jesus Christ. That Aquinas cites heavily the Greek philosophers is well known.
I don't know if this helps- but the "fullness of truth" claim, which I agree makes sense, is regarding the path that Jesus blazed to the top of the mountain. This is where the RCC applies the scripture where Jesus is the gate. This does not apply to other "religions" - just Christians.
I don't know if this helps- but the "fullness of truth" claim, which I agree makes sense, is regarding the path that Jesus blazed to the top of the mountain. This is where the RCC applies the scripture where Jesus is the gate. This does not apply to other "religions" - just Christians.
Unfortunately that is nowhere in the scriptures. The scriptures say we will be judged for what we have done. In fact this is actually taught against - because many will say Lord, Lord and be told to depart.
You can fall off this horse both ways. You are taking the opposite extreme from Pablo. Christ is the only way, and other demon worshipping religions are false. But while we know that the Spirit can be found in the Church, and here we have the mysteries of grace, the promises, and the medicine of immortality, that doesn't mean the Spirit is not at work elsewhere as well.
You can fall off this horse both ways. You are taking the opposite extreme from Pablo. Christ is the only way, and other demon worshipping religions are false. But while we know that the Spirit can be found in the Church, and here we have the mysteries of grace, the promises, and the medicine of immortality, that doesn't mean the Spirit is not at work elsewhere as well.
This doesn't have to be complicated. The criteria is the exact same for non-believers as they are for believers. We are all judged by how Christ-like we are. That signifies a lot of things including wisdom, humility, charity, love, kindness, and self sacrifice. Pagans, Jews and Muslims can be all of those things. Christians can lack those things. But those things and everything else that reflects the character of Christ is necessary to be saved.Quote:
You're making a stronger claim than the Catholic Church is making. If someone who has never heard of Jesus through no fault of their own nevertheless is seeking truth (Jesus is truth) we leave open the POSSIBILITY that Jesus will save these people in a unique way we don't fully understand. We also do not say that He does save them. It's one of those open questions that seems to line up with God's merciful nature. They genuinely seek truth. They believe there is a God they are supposed to serve. They just don't know His name. Maybe He saves them. Maybe He doesn't.
In my professional and personal life, I've had the opportunity to interact with many people of many different cultures. In every one of these cultures, you can find people that reflect all those good things we think when we think of Christ. You can also find plenty that don't. It's a bit hard to explain if you've never had the experience. As a quick example, in most cultures people with wealth are considered to be better than people without. Not just in regards to wealth, but in regards to everything. People are supposed to look down on the less fortunate, expect preferential treatment, and even take advantage of the poor for their own gain. This is considered normal and moral. Christianity teaches the opposite of that. All people are equal, and all people are reflections of God. Any dirty beggar on the street is a perfect representation of Jesus, and they should be treated with mercy and love.
Now you can have this conversation with people of different cultures, and some people will instantly get what you're saying and agree that the poor should be treated well. However, you will never be able to convince other people in that same culture that your morality is correct. Some people just have a Christ-like heart, and some don't. God saves those people that have a Christ-like heart and have the conviction to act on it. The same as He does with Christians.
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Bighunter43 said:The Banned said:Bighunter43 said:
I'm not agreeing with this even remotely…IF someone could attain Heaven by just being "good" as CCC 847 is pushing…then there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. One could simply just qualify as going to Heaven if they are deemed a "good" person. It doesn't work that way..we are all born sinners, and asking Christ for forgiveness and accepting Him is the ONLY way!! The verses listed just clarify that the Jews had the written law, while Gentiles didn't, but have a conscience to help them distinguish between right and wrong…as such, all are required to seek Christ for Salvation. The guy on the island that never heard of Christ argument …well he will still be held accountable in the end. No man will be able to escape God's judgement….either you've accepted Jesus as Savior or you haven't!! Romans 1:20 says that people are without excuse. This is why the need for missions to go spread the "good news" of Christ is so vital….IF one could just qualify by being of good conscience then what would be the point of going to tell them about Jesus? They wouldn't need to know…in other words, if God gives special treatment to those who haven't ever heard the Word…then why go tell them?? Again….this argument in CCC 847 doesn't hold water…and isn't backed by the entire Gospel!!
You're making a stronger claim than the Catholic Church is making. If someone who has never heard of Jesus through no fault of their own nevertheless is seeking truth (Jesus is truth) we leave open the POSSIBILITY that Jesus will save these people in a unique way we don't fully understand. We also do not say that He does save them. It's one of those open questions that seems to line up with God's merciful nature. They genuinely seek truth. They believe there is a God they are supposed to serve. They just don't know His name. Maybe He saves them. Maybe He doesn't.
Because this is not something we can rely on or should even put a large amount of hope in, we should still continue to evangelize as we know it is the only certain way to get to Heaven. That we can speak confidently on.
I agree to an extent with what you are saying…our ways certainly are not God's ways….i think if that person is seeking God, then God will find a way to get that person the Gospel. Just think of Cornelius the centurion in Acts….the Bible clearly said he was a good, God fearing man, but evidently that wasn't enough to get him to Heaven. God used a dream to reveal to Cornelius to send for Peter 30 miles away…Peter came, preached the Gospel and THEN Cornelius was saved. If Peter had never made it there, and Cornelius hadn't heard, would his being a God fearing man have been enough for salvation?? Jesus said plainly…"I am the way the truth and the life, and NO ONE comes to the Father BUT BY ME!" If the Bible is infallible, which it most certainly is, then shouldn't we take God at his own words? He didn't say, unless, you are on Plan B….in which you get a pass because you didn't know….I'm not trying to sound harsh, just that the Bible clearly states the WAY. I pray for people who haven't heard, and that God is able to get his message to them!! Certainly we serve a loving God, and God is also just. I would pray that the "man on the island" so to speak gets a chance to know Jesus through a revelation by God, and your right, maybe he does, and maybe he doesn't….that is entirely up to God. However ….we need to follow the great commission and go tell as many as we can. (But the interpretations in Romans 2:14-16 simply point to ALL whether Jew or Gentile will be held accountable.)
I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I think your statement begs the question of what does "…BUT BY ME!" mean?
Certainly not my statement …those are Jesus' words in John 14:6 in the King James Version. (Except through me in other versions)…..meaning of course that if you want to have eternal life it must come by accepting Christ as your savior….THE way…and the ONLY way.
But that isn't what it says. It doesn't not say no one comes to the Father but by accepting me as their savior. It says but by me.
I agree with Zobel. That's not what it says. That's how your faith tradition says you should understand what is otherwise an ambiguous phrase.Bighunter43 said:
Certainly not my statement …those are Jesus' words in John 14:6 in the King James Version. (Except through me in other versions)…..meaning of course that if you want to have eternal life it must come by accepting Christ as your savior….THE way…and the ONLY way.
Just so I understand, in your understanding there is no salvation outside the church?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
PabloSerna said:
Just so I understand, in your understanding there is no salvation outside the church?
There is no salvation outside of Christ….going to church, good conscience, good heart, however you want to put it isn't going to cut it. We are born sinners, all have sinned and fall short…and need Christ as our savior…sounds pretty simple to me.
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:I agree with Zobel. That's not what it says. That's how your faith tradition says you should understand what is otherwise an ambiguous phrase.Bighunter43 said:
Certainly not my statement …those are Jesus' words in John 14:6 in the King James Version. (Except through me in other versions)…..meaning of course that if you want to have eternal life it must come by accepting Christ as your savior….THE way…and the ONLY way.
Looks about as straight forward as you can get….those are the words of Jesus himself. So could you please explain your interpretation??
As Christians we agree on that because of what Jesus taught the Apostles and disciples that they carried on after Jesus ascended into heaven wouldn't you agree? Do you also agree that this "way" became a church?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
The problem is the mechanistic and exclusive approach.
Christ says He is the only path to the Father. You're saying that "coming to the Father" means salvation. Does it? Is it as simple as that?
You're also saying that coming to the Father must be through the gospel, through accepting Christ as savior, presumably verbal confession.
What the teaching of the Church is that the Church has the fullness of Truth, it is the way with the promises and so forth as I said. But that does not mean that the Spirit of Christ cannot act outside, give grace, and draw people to Himself and the Father - even if they don't know him as Jesus Christ. We know that because He did that in the OT - He drew men to Him and therefore to the Father who knew Him as the Angel of the Lord, the Word of the Lord, but not as Jesus Christ. As He said, Abraham saw my day and rejoiced.
Abraham didn't have "the gospel" but he WAS faithful. That is what saves - faithfulness to God. And a person can be faithful to God even without knowing Him, as St Paul pointed out, which is what Ramblin said. That's why people continually identified Christ in the NT - they knew Him, even if they didn't know Him as Jesus. They recognized Him because they were His sheep.
The message here is simply that there may be people who are living God-pleasing lives in ignorance, even perhaps believing they are worshipping Allah or some other God. He is merciful and gives grace to all, and is the good and perfect Judge.
We who have the scriptures and the teaching of the Apostles have a much greater burden, because we have received more - just as St Paul says in Romans. We will be judged accordingly, by what we have done.
That does NOT mean worshipping Allah or any other false god or demon is salvific. It isn't and can't be.
Christ says He is the only path to the Father. You're saying that "coming to the Father" means salvation. Does it? Is it as simple as that?
You're also saying that coming to the Father must be through the gospel, through accepting Christ as savior, presumably verbal confession.
What the teaching of the Church is that the Church has the fullness of Truth, it is the way with the promises and so forth as I said. But that does not mean that the Spirit of Christ cannot act outside, give grace, and draw people to Himself and the Father - even if they don't know him as Jesus Christ. We know that because He did that in the OT - He drew men to Him and therefore to the Father who knew Him as the Angel of the Lord, the Word of the Lord, but not as Jesus Christ. As He said, Abraham saw my day and rejoiced.
Abraham didn't have "the gospel" but he WAS faithful. That is what saves - faithfulness to God. And a person can be faithful to God even without knowing Him, as St Paul pointed out, which is what Ramblin said. That's why people continually identified Christ in the NT - they knew Him, even if they didn't know Him as Jesus. They recognized Him because they were His sheep.
The message here is simply that there may be people who are living God-pleasing lives in ignorance, even perhaps believing they are worshipping Allah or some other God. He is merciful and gives grace to all, and is the good and perfect Judge.
We who have the scriptures and the teaching of the Apostles have a much greater burden, because we have received more - just as St Paul says in Romans. We will be judged accordingly, by what we have done.
That does NOT mean worshipping Allah or any other false god or demon is salvific. It isn't and can't be.
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