The Banned said:
So you think the following is not making a mockery of Catholics?
"It's easy. Rome is right because Rome says it's right.
If it looks like Rome is contradicting itself (as is in this case), it's because Rome either reinterpreted what was said or we just can't trust the words said.
So trust Rome because Rome says it's right and Rome decides what is right."
These are official documents and in no way vague statements? If you think that's accurate, there is no point in discussing anything further with you.. At least when I make a caricature of sola scriptura I do it by saying that I'm intentionally making a caricature of solo scriptura. You seem to be serious about your above comment. I don't know how you can be that blind.
As for the rest of it, I have answered you above. You never responded to any of it. I've never said the church didn't say it. I've acknowledged it. So you are either lying, or refusing to read. If you can't see how a document addressing specific heresies in a specific time may apply differently to people born 600 hundred years later in much different faith and political conditions, I don't know what to tell you. I've added to context that any individual who actually wanted to engage in a conversation would find noteworthy. You don't have that desire. I find it hard to believe that you are dense enough not to catch on at this point. And since it's you and only you, I think it proves that it's intentional. You only want to impugn the Catholic Church, so I'll let you have at it.
Do I think they make a mockery? No I don't? Was it blunt? Yes.
I've posted 3 things. 2 popes and 1 council.
In each of those we learned:
1. Those outside the church are destined for eternal fire (Council of Florence)
Quote:
It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives[/quote
2. There is no salvation outside the Church (Unam Sanctum)
Quote:
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3].
3. Then we have the question of who a heretic is. (Exsurge Domine)Quote:
In virtue of our pastoral office committed to us by the divine favor we can under no circumstances tolerate or overlook any longer the pernicious poison of the above errors without disgrace to the Christian religion and injury to orthodox faith. Some of these errors we have decided to include in the present document; their substance is as follows:
33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
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We could of course look through more councils and documents, but this is clearly different than what francis is saying. It's a completely 180.
While you guys want to define heretic a certain way, we know with absolute certain that Rome historically viewed Luther, Hus, Calvin, etc as heretics.
Hus, a fellow Christian, was burned alive at the stake.
Luther had a wanted "dead or alive" order on him.
So it's indisputable that Rome killed fellow Christians as heretics and would have killed more if they could.
But now you guys want us to believe that Rome has not held that position. The only way you achieve that is to say you're right on this because a bishop says this is right. You've removed any ability to objectively review the words at the councils. You've removed ability to even trust the words because you'll say they don't mean what they mean. What are we left with? Well as has been said many times, laymen can't make these calls, only the bishop. Or said simply, Rome is right because Rome has to be right.
But if you think that's wrong, I'm all ears on how we can objectively assess these councils and pope's words and actions without relying on a bishop to tell us what is right or wrong?
