Junction71 said:

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I agree with Yukon. They were known, translatable languages.

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Windy City Ag said:

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I am curious yalls views on speaking in tongues.

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I know the arguments for it, but I personally believe it is a byproduct of an extreme emotional high that is achieved through Pentecostal or just really, really intense worship and it most any documented case is authentic frontier gibberish masquerading as the language of the Holy Ghost.

I have read many, many accounts of plain old English speakers who claim to have briefly and suddenly been able to speak Mandarin or Swahili to others as part of proselytizing. That, to Yukon's point, if true seems to be a more apt description but I would like to see this actually happen and even then I would be skeptical.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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There's some who claim to be speaking in heavenly language or language the angels speak. And that it's gift and they just start speaking in tongues while in prayer and don't know what they say.

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What would be the point in that?

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UTExan said:

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When approaching a controversial topic like this I try to fall back on Romans 14:4.
I don't understand healing ministries either, but they happen inside and outside liturgical churches. As does glossolalia.

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tk111 said:

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The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."

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tk111 said:

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UTExan said:

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tk111 said:

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The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."

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Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it. Tell it to charismatic Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and all those nondenominational and Pentecostals around the world who could benefit from your words.
Again, if you don't understand it, Romans 14:4 is our best guide here.

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You realize that by this standard I could come up with anything I want and claim you're lacking knowledge to refute it because you haven't "experienced it" like I did? That's the #1 ploy of that movement - don't fall into that trap.

You're going to have to explain your interpretation of Romans 14:4, because I have a feeling you are "falling back on it" in a way that tears it out of its context. It is not a pass for professing Christians to do whatever they believe is well-meaning, and to not reprove those that we believe have fallen victim to false teaching.

I grew up in pentacostalism/charismaticism. Seen more than my share of "experiences" from both sides of the stage. That's why I gave the brief historical overview of the facts.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it.

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A summary of the Higher Life movement (which came to prominence around 1900 as tk111 pointed out). If you don't get it, then you haven't received the "second blessing."

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UTExan said:

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tk111 said:

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UTExan said:

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tk111 said:

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The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."

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Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it. Tell it to charismatic Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and all those nondenominational and Pentecostals around the world who could benefit from your words.
Again, if you don't understand it, Romans 14:4 is our best guide here.

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You realize that by this standard I could come up with anything I want and claim you're lacking knowledge to refute it because you haven't "experienced it" like I did? That's the #1 ploy of that movement - don't fall into that trap.

You're going to have to explain your interpretation of Romans 14:4, because I have a feeling you are "falling back on it" in a way that tears it out of its context. It is not a pass for professing Christians to do whatever they believe is well-meaning, and to not reprove those that we believe have fallen victim to false teaching.

I grew up in pentacostalism/charismaticism. Seen more than my share of "experiences" from both sides of the stage. That's why I gave the brief historical overview of the facts.

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You gave your personal view because it didn't work for you. The same could be said for highly liturgical church experiences where people from that tradition did not feel a relationship with God came about as a result. The experiences of the British Methodist Revival and the Second Great Awakening underscore the need for many Christians to go beyond the rote formulary worship of their existing church and are chronicled in detail. I doubt those experiences would pass theological muster with some Reform and Catholics here.
It is worth noting that Pentecostalism is the fastest growing Christian movement on earth today.

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UTExan said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it.

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A summary of the Higher Life movement (which came to prominence around 1900 as tk111 pointed out). If you don't get it, then you haven't received the "second blessing."

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The second blessing was, AFAIK, a term used by Wesley to describe his experiences post-Aldersgate.

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Pentacostal movement is the fastest growing movement within Christianity today, it is a false doctrine.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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From what I gather, there are two abilities to speak in tongues:
1. Foreign languages which can be verified by the hearer.
2. Angelic languages which can't be verified by anyone.

Why has the first ceased, but not the second?

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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In the words of the apostle Paul, I would like to know if I'm being led astray to mute idols.

And you didn't answer my question.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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I'll take that as you don't know why the spiritual gift witnessed at Pentecost has ceased, but this mysterious angelic communication has not.

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