Speaking in tongues

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Yukon Cornelius
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8:06a, 8/27/24
AG
I am curious yalls views on speaking in tongues. There's some who claim to be speaking in heavenly language or language the angels speak. And that it's gift and they just start speaking in tongues while in prayer and don't know what they say.

My understanding on speaking in tongues was speaking or being heard in legitimate different languages by people who didn't speak your native language. For example Pentecost when we first see it happen. To me it signified the reversal of tower of Babylon and that God was bringing the nations together.

But maybe there's more to it? Or maybe not?
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jrico2727
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8:18a, 8/27/24
AG
I have always enjoyed this interpretation
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dermdoc
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In reply to Yukon Cornelius • 9:24a, 8/27/24
AG
Yukon Cornelius said:
I am curious yalls views on speaking in tongues. There's some who claim to be speaking in heavenly language or language the angels speak. And that it's gift and they just start speaking in tongues while in prayer and don't know what they say.

My understanding on speaking in tongues was speaking or being heard in legitimate different languages by people who didn't speak your native language. For example Pentecost when we first see it happen. To me it signified the reversal of tower of Babylon and that God was bringing the nations together.

But maybe there's more to it? Or maybe not?


My advice would be to attend a Pentecostal or some Assembly of God churches.

Speaking in tongues for them is not speaking in like German or French but a holy language that has to be interpreted. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I sometimes feel close to this in my private prayer time when the Spirit causes me to babble.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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AGC
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9:30a, 8/27/24
AG
Our tradition doesn't focus on tongues or really emphasize it.

My view would be that we, as Christians, know what is said in heaven: our tradition sings the Sanctus at the Eucharist service (Isaiah 6:3 & Revelation 4:8). Do we need more heavenly language when we can join with angels and archangels in worshiping God?
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Junction71
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10:03a, 8/27/24
AG
I agree with Yukon. They were known, translatable languages.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Junction71 • 10:19a, 8/27/24
AG
Junction71 said:
I agree with Yukon. They were known, translatable languages.


Maybe agree with you at Pentecost. But people thought they were drunk which goes along with the Pentecost tradition. And it seems clear to me that Paul in his letters to Corinth was not talking about known foreign languages.
Paul also stressed that speaking in tongues required an interpreter, which again sounds like a spiritual language rather than a foreign one. He also stated it was a minor gift and that prophecy was a more important gift.
I believe it is a gift of the Spirit still today.
I do not believe it has anything to do with salvation.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Windy City Ag
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In reply to Yukon Cornelius • 10:20a, 8/27/24
AG
Quote:
I am curious yalls views on speaking in tongues.
I know the arguments for it, but I personally believe it is a byproduct of an extreme emotional high that is achieved through Pentecostal or just really, really intense worship and it most any documented case is authentic frontier gibberish masquerading as the language of the Holy Ghost.

I have read many, many accounts of plain old English speakers who claim to have briefly and suddenly been able to speak Mandarin or Swahili to others as part of proselytizing. That, to Yukon's point, if true seems to be a more apt description but I would like to see this actually happen and even then I would be skeptical.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Windy City Ag • 10:25a, 8/27/24
AG
Windy City Ag said:
Quote:
I am curious yalls views on speaking in tongues.
I know the arguments for it, but I personally believe it is a byproduct of an extreme emotional high that is achieved through Pentecostal or just really, really intense worship and it most any documented case is authentic frontier gibberish masquerading as the language of the Holy Ghost.

I have read many, many accounts of plain old English speakers who claim to have briefly and suddenly been able to speak Mandarin or Swahili to others as part of proselytizing. That, to Yukon's point, if true seems to be a more apt description but I would like to see this actually happen and even then I would be skeptical.


I agree with you. And I think that goes along with what Paul wrote.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Yukon Cornelius • 10:53a, 8/27/24
Yukon Cornelius said:
There's some who claim to be speaking in heavenly language or language the angels speak. And that it's gift and they just start speaking in tongues while in prayer and don't know what they say.
What would be the point in that?
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Yukon Cornelius
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:57a, 8/27/24
AG
I don't know
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Martin Q. Blank
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10:59a, 8/27/24
Even if Christians are supposed to communicate with angels, all previous encounters the angels accommodate to the human's language when conversing.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 11:00a, 8/27/24
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Yukon Cornelius said:
There's some who claim to be speaking in heavenly language or language the angels speak. And that it's gift and they just start speaking in tongues while in prayer and don't know what they say.
What would be the point in that?
That is kind of the point Paul made.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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10andBOUNCE
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11:22a, 8/27/24
AG
Doesn't there always need to be someone to translate what is being spoken? Lots of comments here without any scriptural context, so I will provide like the good reformed person I am

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

If there is a heavenly language, I highly doubt there is anyone on earth that can interpret what it is.
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UTExan
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1:00p, 8/27/24
When approaching a controversial topic like this I try to fall back on Romans 14:4.
I don't understand healing ministries either, but they happen inside and outside liturgical churches. As does glossolalia.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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dermdoc
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In reply to UTExan • 1:23p, 8/27/24
AG
UTExan said:
When approaching a controversial topic like this I try to fall back on Romans 14:4.
I don't understand healing ministries either, but they happen inside and outside liturgical churches. As does glossolalia.


Agree. And no judgement at all.
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94chem
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10:27p, 8/27/24
It always brings order and understanding, never disorder and confusion, except at Babel, as already noted. If it brings confusion and disorder, let's call it what it is - sinful, and perhaps a satanic diversion.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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tk111
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2:50p, 8/28/24
AG
The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."
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UTExan
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In reply to tk111 • 3:20p, 8/28/24
tk111 said:
The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."


Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it. Tell it to charismatic Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and all those nondenominational and Pentecostals around the world who could benefit from your words.
Again, if you don't understand it, Romans 14:4 is our best guide here.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to UTExan • 3:34p, 8/28/24

Quote:
Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it.
A summary of the Higher Life movement (which came to prominence around 1900 as tk111 pointed out). If you don't get it, then you haven't received the "second blessing."
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tk111
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In reply to UTExan • 3:43p, 8/28/24
AG
UTExan said:
tk111 said:
The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."


Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it. Tell it to charismatic Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and all those nondenominational and Pentecostals around the world who could benefit from your words.
Again, if you don't understand it, Romans 14:4 is our best guide here.
You realize that by this standard I could come up with anything I want and claim you're lacking knowledge to refute it because you haven't "experienced it" like I did? That's the #1 ploy of that movement - don't fall into that trap.

You're going to have to explain your interpretation of Romans 14:4, because I have a feeling you are "falling back on it" in a way that tears it out of its context. It is not a pass for professing Christians to do whatever they believe is well-meaning, and to not reprove those that we believe have fallen victim to false teaching.

I grew up in pentacostalism/charismaticism. Seen more than my share of "experiences" from both sides of the stage. That's why I gave the brief historical overview of the facts.

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UTExan
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In reply to tk111 • 3:56p, 8/28/24
tk111 said:
UTExan said:
tk111 said:
The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."


Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it. Tell it to charismatic Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and all those nondenominational and Pentecostals around the world who could benefit from your words.
Again, if you don't understand it, Romans 14:4 is our best guide here.
You realize that by this standard I could come up with anything I want and claim you're lacking knowledge to refute it because you haven't "experienced it" like I did? That's the #1 ploy of that movement - don't fall into that trap.

You're going to have to explain your interpretation of Romans 14:4, because I have a feeling you are "falling back on it" in a way that tears it out of its context. It is not a pass for professing Christians to do whatever they believe is well-meaning, and to not reprove those that we believe have fallen victim to false teaching.

I grew up in pentacostalism/charismaticism. Seen more than my share of "experiences" from both sides of the stage. That's why I gave the brief historical overview of the facts.



You gave your personal view because it didn't work for you. The same could be said for highly liturgical church experiences where people from that tradition did not feel a relationship with God came about as a result. The experiences of the British Methodist Revival and the Second Great Awakening underscore the need for many Christians to go beyond the rote formulary worship of their existing church and are chronicled in detail. I doubt those experiences would pass theological muster with some Reform and Catholics here.
It is worth noting that Pentecostalism is the fastest growing Christian movement on earth today.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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UTExan
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 3:58p, 8/28/24
Martin Q. Blank said:

Quote:
Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it.
A summary of the Higher Life movement (which came to prominence around 1900 as tk111 pointed out). If you don't get it, then you haven't received the "second blessing."

The second blessing was, AFAIK, a term used by Wesley to describe his experiences post-Aldersgate.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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dermdoc
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In reply to UTExan • 3:59p, 8/28/24
AG
UTExan said:
tk111 said:
UTExan said:
tk111 said:
The goalposts on tongues have moved so many times in the last 100 years. No one (outside of some very fringe folks here and there) believed the gift of tongues persisted past the apostolic age until 1900. Then the early Pentecostals said the miraculous gifts had re-emerged because the end times were imminent. They (at least some of them) initially genuinely believed they were speaking actual existing languages (in accordance with how they were described in the Bible), and even sent folks to China to quickly find out that they weren't. Lots and lots of 2nd coming predictions came and went.

Someone came up with the bright idea that 1 Cor 13:1 implies some kind of heavenly language that people can become endowed with, and then you had churches populated with 100% English-speakers getting their reason to babble again. Decades of predatory "preachers" looking to make a buck lead the expansion of pentacostalism through this and claims of the gift of healing (John Alexander Dowie, Amy Semple McPhearson, Kathryn Kuhlman, Charles Parham, Seymor, Wigglesworth, etc). Their legacy are the folks like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jesse Duplantis...

The modern charismatic church loves to quote Rom 8:26-27 as some kind proof for incoherent "prayer language" type tongues, but like many other things, just reading the passage in its context shows how much eisegesis is required to believe that. The big push in the last few decades is due mostly to the post-modern urge for emotional mystic spiritualism - something people find very appealing as they look for a tangible "experience."


Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it. Tell it to charismatic Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and all those nondenominational and Pentecostals around the world who could benefit from your words.
Again, if you don't understand it, Romans 14:4 is our best guide here.
You realize that by this standard I could come up with anything I want and claim you're lacking knowledge to refute it because you haven't "experienced it" like I did? That's the #1 ploy of that movement - don't fall into that trap.

You're going to have to explain your interpretation of Romans 14:4, because I have a feeling you are "falling back on it" in a way that tears it out of its context. It is not a pass for professing Christians to do whatever they believe is well-meaning, and to not reprove those that we believe have fallen victim to false teaching.

I grew up in pentacostalism/charismaticism. Seen more than my share of "experiences" from both sides of the stage. That's why I gave the brief historical overview of the facts.



You gave your personal view because it didn't work for you. The same could be said for highly liturgical church experiences where people from that tradition did not feel a relationship with God came about as a result. The experiences of the British Methodist Revival and the Second Great Awakening underscore the need for many Christians to go beyond the rote formulary worship of their existing church and are chronicled in detail. I doubt those experiences would pass theological muster with some Reform and Catholics here.
It is worth noting that Pentecostalism is the fastest growing Christian movement on earth today.
The only problem I have with tongues or healings or whatever is when people tie salvation to the manifestation of those things. And there are a lot of Pentecostals who do.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to UTExan • 4:08p, 8/28/24
UTExan said:
Martin Q. Blank said:

Quote:
Well, if you have never experienced it you probably do not have the totality of knowledge to be able to judge it.
A summary of the Higher Life movement (which came to prominence around 1900 as tk111 pointed out). If you don't get it, then you haven't received the "second blessing."

The second blessing was, AFAIK, a term used by Wesley to describe his experiences post-Aldersgate.
That must make you a Methodist. No wonder you like this stuff.
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Yukon Cornelius
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In reply to UTExan • 6:05p, 8/28/24
AG
Could the growth be attributed to "itchy war doctrine"?

What's the benefit of speaking or making sounds that literally sound like gibberish that no one has any idea of what is being said?

The alternative interpretation has two very clear benefits. Communication with others and reversal of the Tower of Babel confusion.
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Gaw617
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2:57a, 8/29/24
One of the key reasons for the church is to spread the Gospel. The Gospel is a simple and clear message that Jesus is the Christ and he died to save us from our sin. Why would God want people speaking a bunch of words no one understands in a church service where all the people speak the same language? It doesn't help spread the Gospel, it doesn't help the members of the body of Christ edify him more. Pentacostal movement is the fastest growing movement within Christianity today, it is a false doctrine. Like Jesus warned us many false prophets will come in the last days. Speaking in tongues that we see in that movement has nothing to do with what is referred to in the Bible regarding tongues because those that are doing it are doing it to set themselves apart or above other members of the congregation not to glorify the Father.
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UTExan
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In reply to Gaw617 • 10:00a, 8/29/24
Quote:
Pentacostal movement is the fastest growing movement within Christianity today, it is a false doctrine.
Really? Better tell that to all those charismatic Catholics and legacy Protestant folks who pray in tongues.
The existing religious establishments have always denigrated Pentecostals because they fear the power of a pentecostal movement within their own churches. It exists outside their control.

Sort of reminds me of a 1st century Roman-governed area called Palestine.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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Martin Q. Blank
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10:12a, 8/29/24
From what I gather, there are two abilities to speak in tongues:
1. Foreign languages which can be verified by the hearer.
2. Angelic languages which can't be verified by anyone.

Why has the first ceased, but not the second?
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UTExan
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:19a, 8/29/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
From what I gather, there are two abilities to speak in tongues:
1. Foreign languages which can be verified by the hearer.
2. Angelic languages which can't be verified by anyone.

Why has the first ceased, but not the second?
Why is it important that you know what languages are being spoken if it is the prayer language of a believer?
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to UTExan • 10:24a, 8/29/24
In the words of the apostle Paul, I would like to know if I'm being led astray to mute idols.

And you didn't answer my question.
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UTExan
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:29a, 8/29/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
In the words of the apostle Paul, I would like to know if I'm being led astray to mute idols.

And you didn't answer my question.
It's their relationship with God. They are not forcing anything on you or trying to lead you. That's all in your head. If the pentecostal experience challenges you, ask why and search the scriptures, like the Bereans.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to UTExan • 10:36a, 8/29/24
I'll take that as you don't know why the spiritual gift witnessed at Pentecost has ceased, but this mysterious angelic communication has not.
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tk111
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In reply to UTExan • 10:44a, 8/29/24
AG
UTExan said:
Quote:
Pentacostal movement is the fastest growing movement within Christianity today, it is a false doctrine.
Really? Better tell that to all those charismatic Catholics and legacy Protestant folks who pray in tongues.
The existing religious establishments have always denigrated Pentecostals because they fear the power of a pentecostal movement within their own churches. It exists outside their control.

Sort of reminds me of a 1st century Roman-governed area called Palestine.
No one here is claiming that people did not miraculously speak in tongues - actual existing languages - in first-century Palestine...or Asia Minor...or Rome. You're conflating Biblical history with the present to set up a bizarre strawman, and not really addressing anything anyone here is saying/asking.

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The Lone Stranger
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10:52a, 8/29/24
A lot of interesting opinions, but not so much biblical references. I suggest reading Acts 2, I Corinthians 12, 13,14. Practice doesn't establish truth or doctrine; scripture does.

Don't forget any gift can be abused; that is not proof the gift is invalid.
The Lone Stranger
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UTExan
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 11:59a, 8/29/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
I'll take that as you don't know why the spiritual gift witnessed at Pentecost has ceased, but this mysterious angelic communication has not.

"Angelic communication" =/= praying to angels. Or even necessarily "tongues of angels". The prayer is directed to God in whatever language is employed. I cannot quite figure out the board's fixation on believers praying to God in languages other than their own.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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