Question for Reformed/Sola Scriptura believers

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dermdoc
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AG
And 1 Timothy 2 5-6 shoots down limited atonement.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men.

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AGC
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AG
Mostly Peaceful said:

AGC said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Please explain. I'm here to learn.


You trotted out sola scriptura and then pivoted to 'prayerful consideration' and consultation of friends and believers when uncertain, which is not the same thing. We jettisoned scripture real quick for a 'modern' problem.

Tradition (democracy through time, as Chesterton calls it) carries far more weight than consulting your friends on a subject because it has more depth and breadth than you can glean from a single generation of believers.

In fact, what makes your selected friends and self-selected pastor any sort of authority in liquid modernity? They're all chosen by you, just like an interpretation, no?
I'm still having a tough time understanding why my position is so egregious. Does sola scriptura hold that Scripture has a definitive answer for every scenario that may arise in life? Spending time in prayer and seeking counsel from other believers is jettisoning Scripture? Maybe I should have included spending time in God's Word.

I feel like we are going round in circles at this point, and that is okay. I genuinely appreciate the conversation as I know I have so much to learn, but that doesn't lend me to be dogmatic in areas lacking strong Scriptural support. I certainly don't agree with being dogmatic in anything that conflicts with Scripture. For example, Mary's perpetual virginity. Not only do I find zero support for this in the Bible, mentions of Jesus' siblings and Matthew 1:24-25 seem like a direct contradiction. But I should believe it anyway because that's the position of the Catholic Church?


Let me back up a bit. I believe this is a crisis of authority.

Christ is the head of the church, His bride and body. In our case, the church is the physical manifestation on earth of His body (being the people, not to be confused with the building). The church has an authority structure, explained in scripture and practiced (bishop, priest, deacon). In terms of authority, we, the laity, submit more or less in that order (Christ on down). So when we talk about doctrine or theology and where it gets decided, it's a question of authority.

What you defer to with sola scriptura isn't the authority structure of the church. That's why if something isn't straightforward in your mind, you go to the actual authority structure (pastor). The church canonized scripture, recognizing it as divinely inspired. The old saying is that Christ left behind a church, not a book. The church created the creeds to address misconceptions. The church instituted the liturgy and worship, making it a meaningful progression as we participate with heaven. The church is also the body of all believers across time, not just in the present.

That, I think, is why it's circular. When you defer to something that Christ didn't leave in charge, and are confused, you then run to something that was left in charge. Sola scriptura is insufficient because it was never meant to be your authority.

I'd also add that Sola scriptura and exegesis are a bit like Harry Potter nowadays. If you speak Latin and own a wand you've got the keys to the kingdom. Speaking Greek or Hebrew though isn't enough to be a Christian, it's not a secret text to unlock with your own understanding, there was always an earthly priesthood.
one MEEN Ag
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AG
Mostly Peaceful said:

Zobel said:

I'm curious why you think everything should be justified by scripture. I don't think that is actually scriptural.

There are several places however that say to submit to your spiritual leaders. And there are many, many references in the scriptures to extra-scriptural traditions which seem to directly refute your stance.

So I'm curious how exactly your approach is coherent as a whole?

Extra-scriptural traditions do not refute my stance unless they are deemed necessary for salvation.
Again, this was the core frame of mind I had to leave at the front door when joining the Orthodox church. Growing up protestant I knew exactly what the 'minimum requirements' were for entering heaven. It was preached basically every sunday across all the different churches I grew up. The minimum requirements played out like this:

-Jesus prayer as a passcode towards once saved always saved
-Baptism as a declaration of faith
-Communion every now and then
-Once you're declared fireproof, guilt trip + entertainment to get you back in the door beyond just easter and christmas.
-But you were once saved always saved, so why rise above being a customer of church?

'Deemed necessary for your salvation' is taking a blade to the corpus of ancient church tradition that is a continuation of the temple practices. Its like an MBA got to decide church doctrine here. Its ALL important. Its all necessary for your salvation. Its the whole point of theosis. how and why are you cutting away from church practices that remained for 1000, 1500, 1700 years?

You are always to be increasing in prayers, fasting, and almsgiving. Confessing your sins to God constantly, and to your priest constantly. Partaking in the holy mysteries that are the sacraments. Asking God for mercy, working on humility. Learning more about the doctrine, church fathers, saints and martyrs. Venerating them, knowing they aren't dead and joining you in worship. Attending more and more services because you are in the house of God and its all good for you.

Thought experiment: Who is the most spiritually devout person in your entire denomination. What do they look like? What does their life look like? Is there even a formal place for people who want to live out their life in devotion to God? What does that place look like and what are they doing there? Does the most 'devout' group in your church just know a lot about God? Or do they spend a lot of time praying and being with God? Just because the pharisees performed rituals with a prideful, judging heart doesn't mean to throw out the rituals, its to throw out the pride.
Mostly Peaceful
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The Banned said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Quote:

Just curious if you are Reformed. And if so, your thoughts on double predestination.

Thanks.

Yes, reformed. In regard to double predestination, I don't believe God desires to damn people to hell as it was described in this thread. I believe the elect are predestined to salvation, and I do not/cannot understand much beyond that at this point. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says that God predestines anyone to hell.


I'm glad you don't believe that. Your tradition certainly did and there is a good chunk of current Calvinist that hold to it. Here is your issue: who interpreted scripture better? You or Calvin? How do we reach that conclusion? Is this an area Christians can agree to disagree? If not, why not?

I don't mean to pepper you with questions but this is a really good example of the issues I have with sola scriptura. If two sets of Christians read the Bible and come to different conclusions on the very nature of God and His desire to save all people, what do we do with that?
I don't want this to turn into a debate on election/predestination. I'll just say that I think Calvin's views are often terribly mischaracterized. Two quotes from Calvin himself:

"It is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world."

"Though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him."

Calvin recognized the sovereignty of God in salvation as well as man's responsibility. He struggled mightily with this tension, as do I and countless other believers.

I remain unconvinced that the perpetual virginity of Mary is anything other than man-made tradition. At what point did "virtually everyone" believe this? And what was the basis for that belief? Is it true that the Protoevangelium of James is the earliest source? Joseph was previously married? Not trying to pepper you with questions either. I fully admit I am rather ignorant on this matter. But Matthew 1:24-25 seems very clear, "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son."

Finally, I am aware that words can have alternate meanings, but there was a word for cousin which Paul uses for the relationship between Mark and Barnabas (Col. 4:10). He calls James Jesus' brother (Gal 1:9).
Mostly Peaceful
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Quote:

-Jesus prayer as a passcode towards once saved always saved
-Baptism as a declaration of faith
-Communion every now and then
-Once you're declared fireproof, guilt trip + entertainment to get you back in the door beyond just easter and christmas.
-But you were once saved always saved, so why rise above being a customer of church?
My experience growing up was very similar, and I couldn't agree more that easy believism is a major problem in many protestant churches today.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Mostly Peaceful said:

Quote:

Just curious if you are Reformed. And if so, your thoughts on double predestination.

Thanks.

Yes, reformed. In regard to double predestination, I don't believe God desires to damn people to hell as it was described in this thread. I believe the elect are predestined to salvation, and I do not/cannot understand much beyond that at this point. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says that God predestines anyone to hell.
God does not damn people to hell nor does he cause people to be evil. However, God does pass over the non elect as seen over and over again throughout scripture.

Now as to the who/what/when/where/why of all of this - that is the secret will of God and not for us to know. Another area of tension that we need to be able to live in and have faith that God is good, just and sovereign.
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

I remain unconvinced that the perpetual virginity of Mary is anything other than man-made tradition. At what point did "virtually everyone" believe this? And what was the basis for that belief?
From as far back as we have records until sometime in the last few centuries. The protestant reformers were unanimous on it as well.
Quote:

Is it true that the Protoevangelium of James is the earliest source? Joseph was previously married?
Explicit extant source? Probably. But itself is likely a recording of earlier traditions. For example, the prototypical icon of the Theotokos has three stars - for her perpetual virginity (before, during, after) going back to very old icons indeed (~5th century). And the prototypical icon of St Joseph the Betrothed is of an old man, not a young one.
Quote:

Not trying to pepper you with questions either. I fully admit I am rather ignorant on this matter. But Matthew 1:24-25 seems very clear, "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son."
"Surely I will be with you always, even until the end of the age." The exact same word (heos) is used here. Will Christ abandon us at the end of the age? Of course not. That isn't what this means. It means up to the time, affirming her virginity. It makes no statement as to what comes after. And this is just one of many, many cases where this language is used in the scripture where "until" can not mean "and then after it is different".

Further the church fathers recognized other prophecies associated with the mother of the Lord, passages like Ezekiel 44:2 "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut" or the parallels between the Theotokos and the Ark of the Covenant. If touching the Ark improperly killed Uzzah, how could a righteous man like St Joseph have approached the human who gave birth to the God Man?

Quote:

Finally, I am aware that words can have alternate meanings, but there was a word for cousin which Paul uses for the relationship between Mark and Barnabas (Col. 4:10). He calls James Jesus' brother (Gal 1:9).
Adelphos is a generic term for relation. There is a specific word for cousin (adelphinos or anepsios) but these are rare. If we look to the Greek scriptures like the Septuagint and other parts of the Greek old testament you see that adelphos is used commonly to mean everything from brother to cousin to kinsman or even countryman, someone of the same tribe or people. Specifically for example we know Lot famously was Abraham's nephew, but he is called his brother using this same term in Genesis 13:8.

Even further, there is no actual affirmation that the brethren of the Lord are the Theotokos Mary's children. Not only does it never say they are her children, it even seems in places that the possessive wording is there to make a distinction, literally "the mother of Him and the brothers of Him". In Acts 1:14 it says literally "Mary the mother of Jesus and with the brothers of Him". Not with her other sons, because she had none.

There is also evidence of this when Christ gives His Mother to be taken into the home of St John - famously, "Woman, behold thy son". It would be shameful for St James or the others to not take care of their own mother. But because she had not other son, the Lord provides for her case, entrusting her to St John.

In other words, the ancient church had and knew the scriptures. If some teaching comes along that presumes for thousands of years the church erred in reading their own scriptures, you can safely assume it is mistaken.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
dermdoc said:

And 1 Timothy 2 5-6 shoots down limited atonement.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men.


I don't know that it shoots down. The interpretation is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all but only applied to the elect.

Matthew 20:26-28
It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-desire-save
Quote:

Let us consider two answers to these questions. First, if "all people" means everyone without exception, the Lord's will is not ultimately done when people reject Him. Yet as Reformed teachers have often said, the Greek word translated "all people" can mean all kinds of people leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on.

Second, if "all people" refers to every person without exception, then universalism is our conclusion only if God's desire to save is absolute. But the Lord desires one thing more than the salvation of all - His glory (Isa. 48:11).
10andBOUNCE
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Mostly Peaceful said:

The Banned said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Calvin recognized the sovereignty of God in salvation as well as man's responsibility. He struggled mightily with this tension, as do I and countless other believers.


Amen to this.
dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Quote:

Just curious if you are Reformed. And if so, your thoughts on double predestination.

Thanks.

Yes, reformed. In regard to double predestination, I don't believe God desires to damn people to hell as it was described in this thread. I believe the elect are predestined to salvation, and I do not/cannot understand much beyond that at this point. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says that God predestines anyone to hell.
God does not damn people to hell nor does he cause people to be evil. However, God does pass over the non elect as seen over and over again throughout scripture.

Now as to the who/what/when/where/why of all of this - that is the secret will of God and not for us to know. Another area of tension that we need to be able to live in and have faith that God is good, just and sovereign.
What happens to the people God "passes over"?

What if your child was "passed over"?

So in your theology, God creates humans who will be "passed over" and spend an eternity in hell?

And they never had a chance for salvation?

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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

And 1 Timothy 2 5-6 shoots down limited atonement.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men.


I don't know that it shoots down. The interpretation is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all but only applied to the elect.

Matthew 20:26-28
It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-desire-save
Quote:

Let us consider two answers to these questions. First, if "all people" means everyone without exception, the Lord's will is not ultimately done when people reject Him. Yet as Reformed teachers have often said, the Greek word translated "all people" can mean all kinds of people leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on.

Second, if "all people" refers to every person without exception, then universalism is our conclusion only if God's desire to save is absolute. But the Lord desires one thing more than the salvation of all - His glory (Isa. 48:11).

You might change it to "the Reformed interpretation is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all but only applied to the elect".

I do not believe any other Christian theological strain interprets it that way.

So the vast majority of Christian theologians do not believe in Reformed theology and specifically double predestination.
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one MEEN Ag
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

And 1 Timothy 2 5-6 shoots down limited atonement.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men.


I don't know that it shoots down. The interpretation is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all but only applied to the elect.

Matthew 20:26-28
It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-desire-save
Quote:

Let us consider two answers to these questions. First, if "all people" means everyone without exception, the Lord's will is not ultimately done when people reject Him. Yet as Reformed teachers have often said, the Greek word translated "all people" can mean all kinds of people leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on.

Second, if "all people" refers to every person without exception, then universalism is our conclusion only if God's desire to save is absolute. But the Lord desires one thing more than the salvation of all - His glory (Isa. 48:11).

I agree but wouldn't use the word elect because of its usage within calvinism. 'For many' is highlighting the point that not all will come to accept Christ and be saved, even though the offer is there for everyone. There will be people the reject Christ. You can't give a ransom for people who don't want to participate in the trade.

I see it as a point against universalism, not for pointing to a narrowly defined predetermined group of people.
Mostly Peaceful
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Thank you for the thoughtful response.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Quote:

Just curious if you are Reformed. And if so, your thoughts on double predestination.

Thanks.

Yes, reformed. In regard to double predestination, I don't believe God desires to damn people to hell as it was described in this thread. I believe the elect are predestined to salvation, and I do not/cannot understand much beyond that at this point. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says that God predestines anyone to hell.
God does not damn people to hell nor does he cause people to be evil. However, God does pass over the non elect as seen over and over again throughout scripture.

Now as to the who/what/when/where/why of all of this - that is the secret will of God and not for us to know. Another area of tension that we need to be able to live in and have faith that God is good, just and sovereign.
What happens to the people God "passes over"?

What if your child was "passed over"?

So in your theology, God creates humans who will be "passed over" and spend an eternity in hel?

And they never had a chance for salvation?


Short answers to these are "I don't know."
I fall back on Job 38
10andBOUNCE
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AG
So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?
The Banned
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Zobel said:


Quote:

I remain unconvinced that the perpetual virginity of Mary is anything other than man-made tradition. At what point did "virtually everyone" believe this? And what was the basis for that belief?
From as far back as we have records until sometime in the last few centuries. The protestant reformers were unanimous on it as well.
Quote:

Is it true that the Protoevangelium of James is the earliest source? Joseph was previously married?
Explicit extant source? Probably. But itself is likely a recording of earlier traditions. For example, the prototypical icon of the Theotokos has three stars - for her perpetual virginity (before, during, after) going back to very old icons indeed (~5th century). And the prototypical icon of St Joseph the Betrothed is of an old man, not a young one.
Quote:

Not trying to pepper you with questions either. I fully admit I am rather ignorant on this matter. But Matthew 1:24-25 seems very clear, "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son."
"Surely I will be with you always, even until the end of the age." The exact same word (heos) is used here. Will Christ abandon us at the end of the age? Of course not. That isn't what this means. It means up to the time, affirming her virginity. It makes no statement as to what comes after. And this is just one of many, many cases where this language is used in the scripture where "until" can not mean "and then after it is different".

Further the church fathers recognized other prophecies associated with the mother of the Lord, passages like Ezekiel 44:2 "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut" or the parallels between the Theotokos and the Ark of the Covenant. If touching the Ark improperly killed Uzzah, how could a righteous man like St Joseph have approached the human who gave birth to the God Man?

Quote:

Finally, I am aware that words can have alternate meanings, but there was a word for cousin which Paul uses for the relationship between Mark and Barnabas (Col. 4:10). He calls James Jesus' brother (Gal 1:9).
Adelphos is a generic term for relation. There is a specific word for cousin (adelphinos or anepsios) but these are rare. If we look to the Greek scriptures like the Septuagint and other parts of the Greek old testament you see that adelphos is used commonly to mean everything from brother to cousin to kinsman or even countryman, someone of the same tribe or people. Specifically for example we know Lot famously was Abraham's nephew, but he is called his brother using this same term in Genesis 13:8.

Even further, there is no actual affirmation that the brethren of the Lord are the Theotokos Mary's children. Not only does it never say they are her children, it even seems in places that the possessive wording is there to make a distinction, literally "the mother of Him and the brothers of Him". In Acts 1:14 it says literally "Mary the mother of Jesus and with the brothers of Him". Not with her other sons, because she had none.

There is also evidence of this when Christ gives His Mother to be taken into the home of St John - famously, "Woman, behold thy son". It would be shameful for St James or the others to not take care of their own mother. But because she had not other son, the Lord provides for her case, entrusting her to St John.

In other words, the ancient church had and knew the scriptures. If some teaching comes along that presumes for thousands of years the church erred in reading their own scriptures, you can safely assume it is mistaken.


Thank you for handling this for me. I believe this is sufficient evidence.

But I have always thought it funny that Mary would have more kids. You just gave birth to God, a perfect child in all aspects, and the you're going to go have normal kids? Seems like a recipe for disaster
10andBOUNCE
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AG
God had a chosen people in Israel in the Old Testament in which his laws and promises were only for. All the other people groups were passed over. Today, the Church is now true Israel, a chosen people, just like it has been from the beginning of time.
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?


Hence the problem Calvinists have with free will. It's hard for me to imagine that I had no choice in the matter to believe. Or that others genuinely believe God just came and decided their fate for them. I think it goes directly against lived experience.

On the other hand, we have a free gift. God offers you salvation and desires you to take it but PERMITS YOU to say no. His will is to let you choose. So His will is still done.
10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

And 1 Timothy 2 5-6 shoots down limited atonement.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men.


I don't know that it shoots down. The interpretation is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all but only applied to the elect.

Matthew 20:26-28
It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-desire-save
Quote:

Let us consider two answers to these questions. First, if "all people" means everyone without exception, the Lord's will is not ultimately done when people reject Him. Yet as Reformed teachers have often said, the Greek word translated "all people" can mean all kinds of people leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on.

Second, if "all people" refers to every person without exception, then universalism is our conclusion only if God's desire to save is absolute. But the Lord desires one thing more than the salvation of all - His glory (Isa. 48:11).

I do not believe any other Christian theological strain interprets it that way.
Well, the RCC claims that Peter was the first Pope. Peter himself believed in election as outlined in his letters.

1 Peter 1:13-21 Called to Be Holy
Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

2 Peter 1:3-10 Confirming One's Calling and Election
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
10andBOUNCE
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The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?


Hence the problem Calvinists have with free will. It's hard for me to imagine that I had no choice in the matter to believe. Or that others genuinely believe God just came and decided their fate for them. I think it goes directly against lived experience.

On the other hand, we have a free gift. God offers you salvation and desires you to take it but PERMITS YOU to say no. His will is to let you choose. So His will is still done.
The issue is that we aren't God, so when we try to imagine, we simply are not capable of reconciling it all.
dermdoc
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Verses 9 and 10 to me indicate a required action by the believer. If it is unconditional election, why is any effort required?
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10andBOUNCE
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Verse 10 is getting after how a believer is able to affirm their calling; the spiritual qualities mentioned earlier can help us see the fruit that provides us our eternal security.
10andBOUNCE
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The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?


Hence the problem Calvinists have with free will. It's hard for me to imagine that I had no choice in the matter to believe. Or that others genuinely believe God just came and decided their fate for them. I think it goes directly against lived experience.

On the other hand, we have a free gift. God offers you salvation and desires you to take it but PERMITS YOU to say no. His will is to let you choose. So His will is still done.
The reformed perspective is that "taking the gift" requires a work. Man must do something aka accept the gift on their own. How does a wretched and depraved man conjure up this ability? This starts to get into a works based framework.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?


Hence the problem Calvinists have with free will. It's hard for me to imagine that I had no choice in the matter to believe. Or that others genuinely believe God just came and decided their fate for them. I think it goes directly against lived experience.

On the other hand, we have a free gift. God offers you salvation and desires you to take it but PERMITS YOU to say no. His will is to let you choose. So His will is still done.
The reformed perspective is that "taking the gift" requires a work. Man must do something aka accept the gift on their own. How does a wretched and depraved man conjure up this ability? This starts to get into a works based framework.


So then how does unconditional election and irreversible grace fit in? That theology implies no action by the person due to total depravity.
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Mostly Peaceful
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The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?


Hence the problem Calvinists have with free will. It's hard for me to imagine that I had no choice in the matter to believe. Or that others genuinely believe God just came and decided their fate for them. I think it goes directly against lived experience.

On the other hand, we have a free gift. God offers you salvation and desires you to take it but PERMITS YOU to say no. His will is to let you choose. So His will is still done.
My best understanding of free will is that it is limited in the sense that we cannot choose contrary to what we desire most. Does anyone believe we can choose to desire God above all else apart from His grace? Romans 8:28-30 has been very helpful for me in navigating this. God works all things for good for those who love Him, for those He has called. And what is the good? Being conformed to the image of Jesus.

I have so much shame over the way I have lived over a great portion of my life. I can reflect back on all sorts of circumstances and situations that brought me to where I am now. So, while I can say I freely chose God, I believe that is only because He arranged all the circumstances of my life so that I would arrive at a point where inevitably my ultimate desire would be Him.

Thomas Schreiner summarizes Romans 8:28-30 to say, "Believers are assured that God works everything for good because the God who set his covenant love on them, predestined them to be like his Son, called them effectually to himself, and justified them will certainly glorify them. All the sufferings and afflictions of the present era are not an obstacle to their ultimate salvation but are the means by which salvation will be accomplished."
one MEEN Ag
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10andBOUNCE said:

So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?
How do I reconcile what? That people reject Christ? That people have free will on this earth to reject Christ? Yeah, thats reality and how this whole thing is set up even back in the garden of Eden. Thats the mission of the Church. Take this life seriously, live out lives worthy of being called followers of Christ, and participate in the process of theosis through the church that is set up for us to work out our salvation daily.

Now, nobody knows Gods ultimate judgement and we even as Christians are to humbly ask for Gods mercy and thank Him for his love, patience, kindness and mercy. We don't ask for the judgement day to come quickly as we all need time to learn from our mistakes and turn and seek God. We don't boast about being 'fireproof' or opine about others position in front of God.

dermdoc
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Mostly Peaceful said:

The Banned said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Quote:

Just curious if you are Reformed. And if so, your thoughts on double predestination.

Thanks.

Yes, reformed. In regard to double predestination, I don't believe God desires to damn people to hell as it was described in this thread. I believe the elect are predestined to salvation, and I do not/cannot understand much beyond that at this point. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says that God predestines anyone to hell.


I'm glad you don't believe that. Your tradition certainly did and there is a good chunk of current Calvinist that hold to it. Here is your issue: who interpreted scripture better? You or Calvin? How do we reach that conclusion? Is this an area Christians can agree to disagree? If not, why not?

I don't mean to pepper you with questions but this is a really good example of the issues I have with sola scriptura. If two sets of Christians read the Bible and come to different conclusions on the very nature of God and His desire to save all people, what do we do with that?
I don't want this to turn into a debate on election/predestination. I'll just say that I think Calvin's views are often terribly mischaracterized. Two quotes from Calvin himself:

"It is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world."

"Though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him."

Calvin recognized the sovereignty of God in salvation as well as man's responsibility. He struggled mightily with this tension, as do I and countless other believers.

I remain unconvinced that the perpetual virginity of Mary is anything other than man-made tradition. At what point did "virtually everyone" believe this? And what was the basis for that belief? Is it true that the Protoevangelium of James is the earliest source? Joseph was previously married? Not trying to pepper you with questions either. I fully admit I am rather ignorant on this matter. But Matthew 1:24-25 seems very clear, "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son."

Finally, I am aware that words can have alternate meanings, but there was a word for cousin which Paul uses for the relationship between Mark and Barnabas (Col. 4:10). He calls James Jesus' brother (Gal 1:9).



Direct quote from Calvin

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Serviam
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dermdoc said:

And 1 Timothy 2 5-6 shoots down limited atonement.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men.




I will cut your head off if you besmirch the Mediatrix of all graces but one more time.
Serviam
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one MEEN Ag said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Zobel said:

I'm curious why you think everything should be justified by scripture. I don't think that is actually scriptural.

There are several places however that say to submit to your spiritual leaders. And there are many, many references in the scriptures to extra-scriptural traditions which seem to directly refute your stance.

So I'm curious how exactly your approach is coherent as a whole?

Extra-scriptural traditions do not refute my stance unless they are deemed necessary for salvation.
Again, this was the core frame of mind I had to leave at the front door when joining the Orthodox church. Growing up protestant I knew exactly what the 'minimum requirements' were for entering heaven. It was preached basically every sunday across all the different churches I grew up. The minimum requirements played out like this:

-Jesus prayer as a passcode towards once saved always saved
-Baptism as a declaration of faith
-Communion every now and then
-Once you're declared fireproof, guilt trip + entertainment to get you back in the door beyond just easter and christmas.
-But you were once saved always saved, so why rise above being a customer of church?

'Deemed necessary for your salvation' is taking a blade to the corpus of ancient church tradition that is a continuation of the temple practices. Its like an MBA got to decide church doctrine here. Its ALL important. Its all necessary for your salvation. Its the whole point of theosis. how and why are you cutting away from church practices that remained for 1000, 1500, 1700 years?

You are always to be increasing in prayers, fasting, and almsgiving. Confessing your sins to God constantly, and to your priest constantly. Partaking in the holy mysteries that are the sacraments. Asking God for mercy, working on humility. Learning more about the doctrine, church fathers, saints and martyrs. Venerating them, knowing they aren't dead and joining you in worship. Attending more and more services because you are in the house of God and its all good for you.

Thought experiment: Who is the most spiritually devout person in your entire denomination. What do they look like? What does their life look like? Is there even a formal place for people who want to live out their life in devotion to God? What does that place look like and what are they doing there? Does the most 'devout' group in your church just know a lot about God? Or do they spend a lot of time praying and being with God? Just because the pharisees performed rituals with a prideful, judging heart doesn't mean to throw out the rituals, its to throw out the pride.


You are either moving towards God, or away from Him. There is no stasis. Always strive to be holier
dermdoc
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Serviam said:

dermdoc said:

And 1 Timothy 2 5-6 shoots down limited atonement.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men.




I will cut your head off if you besmirch the Mediatrix of all graces but one more time.



I have never understood why Calvinists have to add the words from "all men" to "all types of men" to make their theology fit.

And takes away from inerrancy of Scripture.
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one MEEN Ag
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10andBOUNCE said:

God had a chosen people in Israel in the Old Testament in which his laws and promises were only for. All the other people groups were passed over. Today, the Church is now true Israel, a chosen people, just like it has been from the beginning of time.
Thats a bit backwards. Go back to Genesis. After the flood, God exiled himself, laid down his bow, and established the 70 or 72 nations to be led by angels on His behalf. Those angels fell, accepted worship themselves and became demons. God called a nation out of a man and a family. God didn't pass over everyone else, everyone else passed over God.

And Christianity (The Church) is understood to be a grafting in among the tree of salvation established through Abraham and Israel. We are not to act as jews because we are not jews as being jewish is a combination of birth and devoutness. We are grafted in to reestablish nations serving God on this earth. The section of the Torah applying to foreigners applies to Christians. The counsel of jerusalem (Acts 15) is all about this underlying revelation of a close reading of Leviticus 20. Christians are not to worship other gods, not to eat any idol sacrifices, not to eat blood or meat from an animal that has met a gruesome death (strangled), they must maintain sexual chastity.

God, through providing access to all mankind the salvation of the Jewish Messiah, fulfills the prophecy of regathering the long gone 10 lost tribes of Israel. God wants us to make followers of him among all nations. Paul talks about early Christians learning to not emulate the fullness of the Torah but to be Greek Christians. Eat the cuisine, just not at the temple of Zeus. Wear the clothes, just cover yourself appropriately. Ad infinitem.

Man has the ability to reject the offering of God, just as he always has.
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

So if God's desire and will is for all to be saved, and people reject the gift He provided through his blood, how do you reconcile that? God is so sovereign and all powerful, but the gift he offers is just tossed aside and trampled on by billions of people?


Hence the problem Calvinists have with free will. It's hard for me to imagine that I had no choice in the matter to believe. Or that others genuinely believe God just came and decided their fate for them. I think it goes directly against lived experience.

On the other hand, we have a free gift. God offers you salvation and desires you to take it but PERMITS YOU to say no. His will is to let you choose. So His will is still done.
The reformed perspective is that "taking the gift" requires a work. Man must do something aka accept the gift on their own. How does a wretched and depraved man conjure up this ability? This starts to get into a works based framework.


To stay on topic of sola scriptura, this is exactly why there has to be outside authority. We read things entirely different. Now how do we solve this? Yall have no criteria by which to judge me as right or wrong. On the flip side, we have two thousand years of tradition and an authoritative body to point at to prove your position wrong

Would be happy to continue the actual theology debate in a separate thread. I think there are enough responses here to show the problems with sola scriptura, which was the focus of the OP
The Banned
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Exactly. Adam and Eve either prove God intentionally created people to defy Him (meaning He desires disobedience) or He permits people to choose (does not sit well with Calvinism/DP). It's a radically untenable positions brought about by the fear that us accepting God is "works based salvation" which only arose out of a repeated twisting of the Protestant reformers. We're so far afield now that people teach we are basically automatons that God moves around on the chess board at His will, rather than independent creatures that He allows to follow Him. An authority outside of the Bible was always needed.
10andBOUNCE
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People absolutely have the choice to defy God's commandments and sin, just like Adam and Eve. No reformer will deny that.
10andBOUNCE
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How would the non-reformed break down John 6:44?
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
The Greek word translated as "draw" is helkuo, which means "to drag".
 
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