It is often argued on this board that life without God would be without purpose or meaning. Arguments are made that without God, one might live a life of pure hedonism, or violence, or that there would be no reason to continue to live at all. I want to argue that I don't really think you all actually believe this.

Consider a hypothetical where you become convinced that there is no God. No doubt that it would be a shock, but what would you decide to do with your life? Just end it? Get it over with since nothing matters at all? Whatever life and family you've built with your spouse and kids, all your friendships, all of the things you enjoy - you'd just end it? Because none of it matters and none of it has meaning? I don't think you would.

Atheist worldviews are described as depressing by some here because there is no eternal meaning. But it occurred to me that what is described above is far more depressing. I have been enormously fortunate with my life. I have a wonderful family, lovely wife, fantastic kids, great friends, great community. I love to cook, and bake, and woodworking, and golf, and watching movies, and travelling. From my perspective, I have been given a gift and a have two choices. I can consider the gift meaningless and throw it away. Or I can accept the gift and make the most of it for some 70 +/- years even though it doesn't last forever. I don't need to live for eternity in order to love my wife here and now. And I don't need to be with my children forever in the afterlife to love them and be proud of them today.

I was reading a line in the purpose of the universe thread a moment ago. And at the same time, I was on the phone making a tee time reservation. Its 72 degrees in Dallas and I'm about to go pick up my son and we're going to play as many holes as we can until it gets too dark for my old eyes to see. What a perfect afternoon! It occurred to me while I was reading this other post that I don't think you all think there is no meaning outside of an existence with God. I think you all love your families. And you love your children. And you love your communities, and your friends, and your hobbies, and contributing for the future generations, and building something instead of burning it down. I know that the feeling I have now getting ready to take my son golfing is a feeling you all experience in life too.

We have a beautiful gift, even if it isn't eternal.

Thats all! Go spend time with the people you love, do something nice, do something fun. Have a good weekend!

Who is your gift from?

From my perspective if atheism were true it would change the nature of our existence. To entertain the hypothetical you have to abandon the principle of non contradiction. If there's no God then I wouldn't even have the ability to believe in God. If there's no God, then there's no evidence for the existence of God. All of the faculties that make humans unique and different from lesser animals would not even exist.

It's like asking, what do you think you would think if you didn't exist?

A Christian does not think about meaning outside existence with God, because God is the creator of all existence. We think, how can we better live in harmony with God's will for us. And while eternal salvation is a wonderful promise, eternity also includes our current existence, so our time here on earth is also blessed because of our relationship with God.

Since we are considering hypotheticals here. What if you were broke, unemployed, and in the hospital. Using your - enjoy life because it's grand - hypothetical example, what would be the greatness in that.

In your example, apart from God, there is only earthly enjoyment and happiness. Certainly a great day is to be enjoyed, and time with family would bring most everyone happiness. Everyone can agree a perfect afternoon is great, especially for someone who has been "enormously fortunate".

However in my hypothetical example, apart from God, there is not much to be excited about. It would be difficult to consider yourself "enormously fortunate" on a beautiful day watching everyone around you enjoy the sunshine and time with family.

In my hypothetical example, but in communion with God, there can be hope and joy. Joy is not dependent on earthly circumstances or treasures.

You are right in that you were given a gift, I hope you seek out the giver of that gift! Psalm 19 would be a great study after your beautiful day! I sincerely hope you explore a life in communion with God.

birddog7000 said:

---

A Christian does not think about meaning outside existence with God, because God is the creator of all existence. We think, how can we better live in harmony with God's will for us. And while eternal salvation is a wonderful promise, eternity also includes our current existence, so our time here on earth is also blessed because of our relationship with God.

Since we are considering hypotheticals here. What if you were broke, unemployed, and in the hospital. Using your - enjoy life because it's grand - hypothetical example, what would be the greatness in that.

In your example, apart from God, there is only earthly enjoyment and happiness. Certainly a great day is to be enjoyed, and time with family would bring most everyone happiness. Everyone can agree a perfect afternoon is great, especially for someone who has been "enormously fortunate".

However in my hypothetical example, apart from God, there is not much to be excited about. It would be difficult to consider yourself "enormously fortunate" on a beautiful day watching everyone around you enjoy the sunshine and time with family.

In my hypothetical example, but in communion with God, there can be hope and joy. Joy is not dependent on earthly circumstances or treasures.

You are right in that you were given a gift, I hope you seek out the giver of that gift! Psalm 19 would be a great study after your beautiful day! I sincerely hope you explore a life in communion with God.

---

Well said!

That view point works while life is good. What happens when it doesn't?

What happens when your father in law gets schizophrenia and commits suicide? What a wonderful gift, right?

Yet somehow, at his funeral, we still sang Because He Lives.

Because He lives, I can face tomorrow...

Not the words that come to kind at the funeral for someone who committed suicide, but we could sing it because our existence is more than just the physical world around us. If it is just what's around me, for the very fortunate few, like you, it is grand. For the vast majority, it is a hard life and often tragic. God gives me hope in the midst of tragedy that a sunny day on the golf course can't.

birddog7000 said:

---

A Christian does not think about meaning outside existence with God, because God is the creator of all existence. We think, how can we better live in harmony with God's will for us. And while eternal salvation is a wonderful promise, eternity also includes our current existence, so our time here on earth is also blessed because of our relationship with God.

Since we are considering hypotheticals here. What if you were broke, unemployed, and in the hospital. Using your - enjoy life because it's grand - hypothetical example, what would be the greatness in that.

In your example, apart from God, there is only earthly enjoyment and happiness. Certainly a great day is to be enjoyed, and time with family would bring most everyone happiness. Everyone can agree a perfect afternoon is great, especially for someone who has been "enormously fortunate".

However in my hypothetical example, apart from God, there is not much to be excited about. It would be difficult to consider yourself "enormously fortunate" on a beautiful day watching everyone around you enjoy the sunshine and time with family.

In my hypothetical example, but in communion with God, there can be hope and joy. Joy is not dependent on earthly circumstances or treasures.

You are right in that you were given a gift, I hope you seek out the giver of that gift! Psalm 19 would be a great study after your beautiful day! I sincerely hope you explore a life in communion with God.

---

Amen.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Objectively, there would be no purpose to life on a grand scale. It all comes back to the contingency argument. All of these things you have are not ordered towards any greater goal. All these things you have are wonderful, but temporary. Are you saying if you didn't have these things your life would have less/no meaning? What do we do with those that don't even have a chance of obtaining these things? Or is there a way we should comport ourselves regardless of how materially blessed we've been? 45 years old, never knew your parents, not married, no real employment prospects… what is that person's purpose? I'd argue your worldview makes suffering far more meaningless than the theist view. While I might not personally risk my life to go be an ******* when I learn there is no God, how many people who have essentially nothing to lose would just unleash? I hate the word "privilege" but it might apply here. You may find purpose in life because of your experiences but many others may not. Hence the increased suicide rate. An objective purpose to life because it was created by an outside intelligence who designed it that way solves that problem

I don't think everyone would become rapists tomorrow, but I think you are really underestimating how our Christian foundation changes things. Even if we grant that all of the massive changes in equality throughout time would have happened with an atheist worldview, let's look at how people may change their day to day behavior. How many contain their road rage because they know they have a certain view of eternity? How many people avoid petty theft because they know they are worried about eternity? How many people use much kinder words than they'd like because of this? How many people work at their marriage instead of getting the easy divorce? How many people give to charity because of it? Or at least give until it hurts instead of just from their surplus.

The idea that this world is all we have to live for would be death by a thousand paper cuts for our civilization. We saw it in Russia. We see the insane measures China is using to maintain control of their population. It's not sunshine and rainbows on your side because not everyone has the positive attitude/ material blessings you have

---

I hope that in my years on this board, I have made it clear that I am not advocating for the end of religion. This thread is simply to express my opinion that my gift need not be eternal for me to decide its worth living. I find meaning in my life and you do as well. So why should I feel the need to tear down your faith and convince you that you are wasting your time with religion? And why should you feel the need to tear down my worldview and convince me its meaningless?

The purpose of the hypothetical is to ask you to view the world from a different point of view. They hypothetical requires that you look at the world through a different lens, not to judge a different lens through your own.

I have been fortunate in my life. The term 'privilege' carries some political baggage, but ignoring all of that, it absolutely applies. We don't owe apologies for our privileges, just acknowledgments. I have a good job that pays the bills, but I'm hardly rolling in money despite your implications. The things that I listed that I love most are my family and my friends.

And we don't have to talk about a society that is less religious as though it is some fantasy. Many of the safest and 'happiest' countries in the world are routinely the most secular Scandinavian and European countries. This isn't meant as an argument for the superiority of secularism or to say that these countries are 'perfect'. Rather, I think its a counter argument to the suggestion that secularist countries devolve into dystopia.

---

I hear what you are saying but wonder what happens with your worldview when bad things happen. Sickness, death, whatever.

I cruised along pretty much believing as you did until my dad died suddenly when I was 35. Then I had a special needs daughter. Then more family deaths. I nearly went crazy trying to figure out why these things were happening when we had always been "good" people and led "good" lives.

I had always been a Christian but never knew how much I needed Christ as my rock when bad things happen. Now I have a true relationship with Christ. He lives in me and always gives me hope and joy even when life throws you curves.

And then you get to spend eternity with Christ. What a promise. What joy and no fear.
No matter what happens, my identity is secure in Christ. Brings me such peace and joy. I wake up every morning and can not wait to spend time with God in prayer and Bible reading.

And I honestly never thought I would enjoy doing those things so much.

Pro Sandy said:

---

That view point works while life is good. What happens when it doesn't?

What happens when your father in law gets schizophrenia and commits suicide? What a wonderful gift, right?

Yet somehow, at his funeral, we still sang Because He Lives.

Because He lives, I can face tomorrow...

Not the words that come to kind at the funeral for someone who committed suicide, but we could sing it because our existence is more than just the physical world around us. If it is just what's around me, for the very fortunate few, like you, it is grand. For the vast majority, it is a hard life and often tragic. God gives me hope in the midst of tragedy that a sunny day on the golf course can't.

---

I am beginning to worry that my original post has been construed as a threat or challenge to Christians. Let me just say - I am truly happy that your faith gives you hope and happiness. I've never asked you to abandon your faith or your worldview. My views give me hope and happiness. You can choose to be say 'okay' or you can choose to **** on my views. Based on the responses here, maybe I know what you all have chosen.

And I am sorry about your father in law. I'm happy to explain my views when life is not good, but I don't think that is why you wrote what you wrote.

Is the existence of someone else on this planet that doesn't believe in your God really that threatening to you all?

kurt vonnegut said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

That view point works while life is good. What happens when it doesn't?

What happens when your father in law gets schizophrenia and commits suicide? What a wonderful gift, right?

Yet somehow, at his funeral, we still sang Because He Lives.

Because He lives, I can face tomorrow...

Not the words that come to kind at the funeral for someone who committed suicide, but we could sing it because our existence is more than just the physical world around us. If it is just what's around me, for the very fortunate few, like you, it is grand. For the vast majority, it is a hard life and often tragic. God gives me hope in the midst of tragedy that a sunny day on the golf course can't.

---

I am beginning to worry that my original post has been construed as a threat or challenge to Christians. Let me just say - I am truly happy that your faith gives you hope and happiness. I've never asked you to abandon your faith or your worldview. My views give me hope and happiness. You can choose to be happy for me or you can choose to **** on my views. Based on the responses here, maybe I know what you all have chosen.

And I am sorry about your father in law. I'm happy to explain my views when life is not good, but I don't think that is why you wrote what you wrote.

Is the existence of someone else on this planet that doesn't believe in your God really that threatening to you all?

---

I did not take any of the posts like that at all.

It was just Christians explaining what their faith means to them. I definitely did not feel challenged or threatened by your post.

Shalom.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

That view point works while life is good. What happens when it doesn't?

What happens when your father in law gets schizophrenia and commits suicide? What a wonderful gift, right?

Yet somehow, at his funeral, we still sang Because He Lives.

Because He lives, I can face tomorrow...

Not the words that come to kind at the funeral for someone who committed suicide, but we could sing it because our existence is more than just the physical world around us. If it is just what's around me, for the very fortunate few, like you, it is grand. For the vast majority, it is a hard life and often tragic. God gives me hope in the midst of tragedy that a sunny day on the golf course can't.

---

I am beginning to worry that my original post has been construed as a threat or challenge to Christians. Let me just say - I am truly happy that your faith gives you hope and happiness. I've never asked you to abandon your faith or your worldview. My views give me hope and happiness. You can choose to be happy for me or you can choose to **** on my views. Based on the responses here, maybe I know what you all have chosen.

And I am sorry about your father in law. I'm happy to explain my views when life is not good, but I don't think that is why you wrote what you wrote.

Is the existence of someone else on this planet that doesn't believe in your God really that threatening to you all?

---

I don't think anyone is ****ting on your world view. I think people are questioning it.

I am glad that you are happy right now, but you will not always be so. Will you have a deep joy when the bad times hit? Because they will. It is inevitible in this world.

If your wife and children are suddenly killed by a drunk driver tomorrow, will you still feel like you have been given a gift? Or will your worldview collapse into despair?

If my wife dies tomorrow, I know I will see her again in paradise, and I know that my Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, will be with me and help me through. There is a peace and joy in that, regardless of how bad my circumstances are.

I pray that you come to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

What is more important to you? Believing what you believe to be true or believing the thing that offers the most utility in terms of happiness and hope?

dermdoc said:

---

Wouldn't you like to see your deceased loved ones again? And to spend eternity with them? Seems like a no brained to me, Jesus did all the work, all we have to do is repent and believe.

---

Wishing for something to be true does not make it true.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Wouldn't you like to see your deceased loved ones again? And to spend eternity with them? Seems like a no brained to me, Jesus did all the work, all we have to do is repent and believe.

---

Wishing for something to be true does not make it true.

---

I am firmly convinced it is true. I have had too many things happen in my life that were definitely beyond my doing. It was God.

dermdoc said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Wouldn't you like to see your deceased loved ones again? And to spend eternity with them? Seems like a no brained to me, Jesus did all the work, all we have to do is repent and believe.

---

Wishing for something to be true does not make it true.

---

I am firmly convinced it is true. I have had too many things happen in my life that were definitely beyond my doing. It was God.

---

Thats fine. But, I trust that you still generally agree that wishing something to be true is a poor reason to believe it to be true. I'm guessing that your belief in God is based on something other than the utility it gives you.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Wouldn't you like to see your deceased loved ones again? And to spend eternity with them? Seems like a no brained to me, Jesus did all the work, all we have to do is repent and believe.

---

Wishing for something to be true does not make it true.

---

I am firmly convinced it is true. I have had too many things happen in my life that were definitely beyond my doing. It was God.

---

Thats fine. But, I trust that you still generally agree that wishing something to be true is a poor reason to believe it to be true. I'm guessing that your belief in God is based on something other than the utility it gives you.

---

I actually find it very hard not to believe in God. The evidence is all around you.

But it all comes down to faith.

Rex Racer said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

What is more important to you? Believing what you believe to be true or believing the thing that offers the most utility in terms of happiness and hope?

---

I am thankful that I have Truth.

---

I'm sorry, but that isn't an answer to the question.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

Rex Racer said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

What is more important to you? Believing what you believe to be true or believing the thing that offers the most utility in terms of happiness and hope?

---

I am thankful that I have Truth.

---

I'm sorry, but that isn't an answer to the question.

---

Oh, but it is. I don't base Truth off of utility, if you want something that uses your words.