Quote:

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... theological reflection, based on the pastoral vision of Pope Francis, implies a real development from what has been said about blessings in the Magisterium and the official texts of the Church.

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I am interpreting Cardinal Fernandez to mean that Pope Francis' pastoral vision is redefining what a blessing is theologically in the case of "irregular" relationships. So many qualifiers...

BREAKING: Pope Francis publishes norms for clergy to 'bless' homosexual couples - LifeSite (lifesitenews.com)

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Sounds like Fr Martin should be formally humbled for causing "disunity" in the church and sowing seeds of confusion amongst the faithful.

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He does talk about obedience to his superiors. He mentioned before that he does not walk in Pride parades in order to avoid the confusion you are accusing him of doing.

At the same time, he is at the front lines of this time, and has shared some insight. His heart is in the right place even if his methods seem at odds.

You use the word "redefining" they don't, just to be clear on the subject.

"Walk a mile in someone's shoes" as the saying goes.

If you think being gay deserves the death penalty or that you can "pray the gay away" - welcome to Africa. Check this report out about a US non-profit influencing many anti LGBTQ+ laws in parts of Africa.

While the German Church is sprinting toward a "marriage-like" same sex blessing, the Church in Africa is taking a page out of some of the darkest chapters in Christianity. Some of y'all may say, Catholic history, and you wouldn't be wrong. It is because of this, I believe, the Church (RCC) is stepping up and making sense of the reality that some people are indeed same sex attracted. How can they live a sacramental life if they cannot even come to the Lord's table?

We do not have the words of everlasting life, only Jesus does as Peter would testify. Jesus did not come into the world to judge (not yet) and neither should we. That is the approach I have taken and it has been a relief to know that my only responsibility to love my neighbor as Christ has loved me. HTH

PabloSerna said:

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You use the word "redefining" they don't, just to be clear on the subject.

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All a matter of degree what constitutes "real" and "development", I suppose.

I do not see much clarity on the subject at hand, but I agree that the word "redefining" will not be found coming from the dicastery.

Jabin said:

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Good thing that you guys have a central authority to establish clear doctrine that will prevent local clergy from "mangling" things, a habit for which you constantly criticize Protestants.

This should convince lots of Protestants of the error of their ways and the superiority of the RCC approach!

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Or...exactly the opposite.

Will we soon see this image at night except the Vatican?

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Sounds like Fr Martin should be formally humbled for causing "disunity" in the church and sowing seeds of confusion amongst the faithful.

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He does talk about obedience to his superiors. He mentioned before that he does not walk in Pride parades in order to avoid the confusion you are accusing him of doing.

At the same time, he is at the front lines of this time, and has shared some insight. His heart is in the right place even if his methods seem at odds .

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The exact same can be said for +Strickland.

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Well you can look it up for yourself, but Bishop Strickland is on record as stating that he did not implement directives from the Vatican regarding the traditional Latin mass. Fr. Martin 1, Strickland 0.

fc2112 said:

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aggietony2010 said:

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It looks like Vatican II (ironically) is being minimized by Pope Francis as far as the rights of bishops are concerned.

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Deep in the heart of every liberal leader is a dictator dying to get out.

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What does that even mean?

aggietony2010 said:

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https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/what-fiducia-supplicans-declares

Quote:

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While previous curial acts under Francis have been accused of undermining the authority and discernment of diocesan bishops in their governance, acting against the ecclesiology of Vatican Council II in the process, Fiducia supplicans appears to cut the bishops out of the picture altogether.

The DDF prefect appears to argue in his introduction that the curia's work to ensure the "reception" of papal teaching now includes the power to exclude bishops from exercising authority over the pastoral work of their own priests in implementing a "real development" to the magisterium

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The church is still digesting both Vatican councils, and it looks like Vatican II (ironically) is being minimized by Pope Francis as far as the rights of bishops are concerned.

I don't know what the intent is, but from a practical perspective, this feels like throwing priests to the wolves, forcing them to fend for themselves instead of fleeing to the protection of their bishop.

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Remember there are other Bishops that would take a more radical approach (Germany)- so of course the DDF is stepping in. Same with the Bishops in Africa.

Terminus Est said:

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PabloSerna said:

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"Walk a mile in someone's shoes" as the saying goes.

If you think being gay deserves the death penalty or that you can "pray the gay away" - welcome to Africa. Check this report out about a US non-profit influencing many anti LGBTQ+ laws in parts of Africa.

While the German Church is sprinting toward a "marriage-like" same sex blessing, the Church in Africa is taking a page out of some of the darkest chapters in Christianity. Some of y'all may say, Catholic history, and you wouldn't be wrong. It is because of this, I believe, the Church (RCC) is stepping up and making sense of the reality that some people are indeed same sex attracted. How can they live a sacramental life if they cannot even come to the Lord's table?

We do not have the words of everlasting life, only Jesus does as Peter would testify. Jesus did not come into the world to judge (not yet) and neither should we. That is the approach I have taken and it has been a relief to know that my only responsibility to love my neighbor as Christ has loved me. HTH

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I do not believe in the death penalty, but I do believe homosexual actions should be criminalized as they have been many times in the past, mainly to keep them from spreading onto "main street" as they have now; I believe this is also the desire of the African bishops.

Everyone is welcome to the Lord's table, but on His terms and not our own. Remember the King who let everyone into the wedding fest, but threw out the one who was not wearing wedding garments.

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"but I do believe homosexual actions should be criminalized "

For what? Loving someone. Are you serious??

I think you said you are Catholic, the Pope made a special trip to Africa and made a public statement that it is not criminal to be homosexual. "Actions" as you have distinguished, like any sexual act outside of marriage is sinful, just like judging your neighbor or browsing the hotties thread are sinful. Lots of actions are sinful. Ignoring the poor when they approach you, turning a blind eye to the plight of immigrants, the incarcerated, and on and on.. just as sinful.

Put down the stone my friend.

Seamaster said:

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Maybe the worst Pope of all time.

I am dead serious.

At least the sinful Borgia popes didn't even try to fiddle with doctrine.

He's terrible.

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That's because changing the doctrine is the ultimate goal and it will happen faster than you think it will.

And yes, I think we will see the LGBQTIAxyz flag fly over the Vatican within 10 years.

aggietony2010 said:

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https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/what-fiducia-supplicans-declares

Quote:

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While previous curial acts under Francis have been accused of undermining the authority and discernment of diocesan bishops in their governance, acting against the ecclesiology of Vatican Council II in the process, Fiducia supplicans appears to cut the bishops out of the picture altogether.

The DDF prefect appears to argue in his introduction that the curia's work to ensure the "reception" of papal teaching now includes the power to exclude bishops from exercising authority over the pastoral work of their own priests in implementing a "real development" to the magisterium

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The church is still digesting both Vatican councils, and it looks like Vatican II (ironically) is being minimized by Pope Francis as far as the rights of bishops are concerned.

I don't know what the intent is, but from a practical perspective, this feels like throwing priests to the wolves, forcing them to fend for themselves instead of fleeing to the protection of their bishop.

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Undermining... I don't know about that.

I ordered a book about the work of Fr. Yves Congar, OP (yes another Dominican!) and his impact on Vatican II. Just from my quick browsing, that particular take on this action by the DDF is right in line with Vatican II which sought to raise up the Laity and re-orient the clergy as ministers (see clericalism).

Congar was an incredible theologian and understood where the Church was at this time. In some ways, he was ahead of thinking that was more "top down" than from the "bottom up." He influenced and more than likely wrote many key documents (Gadum Et Spes, Lumin Gentium). Here is an article from the Jesuit magazine, America if you want to know more.

HumpitPuryear said:

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Seamaster said:

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Maybe the worst Pope of all time.

I am dead serious.

At least the sinful Borgia popes didn't even try to fiddle with doctrine.

He's terrible.

---

That's because changing the doctrine is the ultimate goal and it will happen faster than you think it will.

And yes, I think we will see the LGBQTIAxyz flag fly over the Vatican within 10 years.

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What doctrine changed exactly?

So will priests be required to bless same-sex unions?

What actions will Pope Francis take against priests
and bishops who refuse?

Terminus Est said:

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PabloSerna said:

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HumpitPuryear said:

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Seamaster said:

---

Maybe the worst Pope of all time.

I am dead serious.

At least the sinful Borgia popes didn't even try to fiddle with doctrine.

He's terrible.

---

That's because changing the doctrine is the ultimate goal and it will happen faster than you think it will.

And yes, I think we will see the LGBQTIAxyz flag fly over the Vatican within 10 years.

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What doctrine changed exactly?

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I believe New Ways Ministry and Fr James Martin and many others want homosexual relations put on par with heterosexual and want the "gravely disordered" verbiage removed to where it is merely considered another licit expression of sexuality.

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Father Martin says that verbiage, and Catholic teaching, is itself "objectively disordered"

HumpitPuryear said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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So will priests be required to bless same-sex unions?

What actions will Pope Francis take against priests
and bishops who refuse?

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They won't be required to but it will be allowed and then the pressure will be on those bigoted priests that won't. They will be forced out. What's happening in the Catholic Church is exactly what has happened with Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, and most recently Methodists. It's going to break up the church and its wealth and influence will be redirected in support progressive causes. It's the same playbook. It's a genius strategy- destroy an enemy, minimize (demonize?) its counter influence and use the spoils of war against the next enemy. The Catholic Church is the big prize.

Homosexuality is at bat but transgenderism is on deck. It doesn't end with the recognition of same sex unions.

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Brother, this is a complete misunderstanding of the document issued today. Those other Christian denominations were essentially agreeing to same sex MARRIAGE from what I have read.

Highly.. Highly encourage you to read that document carefully because it used very specific language to point out that any blessing resembling a marriage, attached as part of a civil union, wedding cake, clothes, etc.. is NOT allowed.

Captain Pablo said:

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So will priests be required to bless same-sex unions?

What actions will Pope Francis take against priests
and bishops who refuse?

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From #39 - "this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them" -

Does that answer your question?

PabloSerna said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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So will priests be required to bless same-sex unions?

What actions will Pope Francis take against priests
and bishops who refuse?

---

From #39 - "this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them" -

Does that answer your question?

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Clarification - Same sex blessings

"transgenderism"

Is this your word or did you read that somewhere? Sounds like a tell.

Captain Pablo said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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So will priests be required to bless same-sex unions?

What actions will Pope Francis take against priests
and bishops who refuse?

---

From #39 - "this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them" -

Does that answer your question?

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Clarification - Same sex blessings

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Required, no.

I had my car blessed, my dog blessed, even my house years ago. The Priest or Deacon were friends and I asked them over and they came. Simple as that.

PabloSerna said:

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Captain Pablo said:

---

PabloSerna said:

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Captain Pablo said:

---

So will priests be required to bless same-sex unions?

What actions will Pope Francis take against priests
and bishops who refuse?

---

From #39 - "this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them" -

Does that answer your question?

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Clarification - Same sex blessings

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Required, no.

I had my car blessed, my dog blessed, even my house years ago. The Priest or Deacon were friends and I asked them over and they came. Simple as that.

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Yeah, no, it is not as simple as that

"should not prevent or prohibit the Church's closeness to people in every situation in which they might seek God's help through a simple blessing".

We will see how he responds when priests refuse

And they will

A follow up to the idea that being homosexual is a crime. Earlier this year in January the Pope said the following:

"To condemn someone like this is a sin," he said. "Criminalizing people with homosexual tendencies is an injustice."

Captain Pablo said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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So will priests be required to bless same-sex unions?

What actions will Pope Francis take against priests
and bishops who refuse?

---

From #39 - "this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them" -

Does that answer your question?

---

Clarification - Same sex blessings

---

Required, no.

I had my car blessed, my dog blessed, even my house years ago. The Priest or Deacon were friends and I asked them over and they came. Simple as that.

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Yeah, no, it is not as simple as that

"should not prevent or prohibit the Church's closeness to people in every situation in which they might seek God's help through a simple blessing".

We will see how he responds when priests refuse

And they will

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I am sure Lucifer is at the ready. I already told you that his calling card is to deny God's mercy and love to the people of God.