Pope Francis continues to sow confusion in the Church

23,968 Views | 286 Replies | Last: 10 mo ago by HumpitPuryear
RAB91
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I'm sure the media will get blamed for misrepresenting things, but at some point you have to assume he's causing confusion on purpose.

chimpanzee
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Not at all surprised. I'm sure dozens of German taxpayers/Catholics will continue their tithing via payroll deduction as a result rather than leave the church formally.
Terminus Est
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This is actually not as bad as I had feared it would be, although it is another Pope Francis "special". Great pains have been taken to make sure that Catholic teaching on marriage is inviolate with the document specifying that:

1.they may NOT "recieve anything resembling a liturgical blessing or blessing of their union"

2. "the invocation of a blessing that descends from God upon those who recognizing themselves to be destitute and in need of his help DO NOT CLAIM A LEGITIMATION OF THEIR STATUS but who beg that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their relationships be enriched, healed and elevated by the presence of the Holy Spirit"

Now, the reason I call this a Pope Francis Special is that while the orthodoxy is plain for all to see, everyone knows it will be massaged and mangled beyond all recognition by liberal Catholic clergy who will be essentially hosting gay weddings in everything but name.
Captain Pablo
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AG
chimpanzee said:

Not at all surprised. I'm sure dozens of German taxpayers/Catholics will continue their tithing via payroll deduction as a result rather than leave the church formally.


Some will

Others will leave

The German church lost 500,000 members in 2022, and that's AFTER all the synod nonsense hit the radar
Jabin
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Good thing that you guys have a central authority to establish clear doctrine that will prevent local clergy from "mangling" things, a habit for which you constantly criticize Protestants.

This should convince lots of Protestants of the error of their ways and the superiority of the RCC approach!
Dacoldest
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Catholics: Satan is on the throne of the Church.
Captain Pablo
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AG
Jabin said:

Good thing that you guys have a central authority to establish clear doctrine that will prevent local clergy from "mangling" things, a habit for which you constantly criticize Protestants.

This should convince lots of Protestants of the error of their ways and the superiority of the RCC approach!


Oh pi** off

This isn't about y'all
Jabin
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Captain Pablo said:

Jabin said:

Good thing that you guys have a central authority to establish clear doctrine that will prevent local clergy from "mangling" things, a habit for which you constantly criticize Protestants.

This should convince lots of Protestants of the error of their ways and the superiority of the RCC approach!


Oh pi** off

This isn't about y'all
LOL. Nice Christ-like response.

It appears that you don't like it when the RCC's hypocrisy and fundamental errors are displayed for all to see.
Law361
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AG
I found this article helpful in explaining everything: https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/fiducia-supplicans-what-does-it-say?fbclid=IwAR07A-8Ti-RoUlvWBFyiySVY6b0WBy5hiRp2dreQlR6ojt2OBmCMEWd57qA
PabloSerna
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AG
Its not what you think it is.

ETA: It is not marriage to be clear.
Captain Pablo
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Jabin said:

Captain Pablo said:

Jabin said:

Good thing that you guys have a central authority to establish clear doctrine that will prevent local clergy from "mangling" things, a habit for which you constantly criticize Protestants.

This should convince lots of Protestants of the error of their ways and the superiority of the RCC approach!


Oh pi** off

This isn't about y'all
LOL. Nice Christ-like response.

It appears that you don't like it when the RCC's hypocrisy and fundamental errors are displayed for all to see.


Lol of course I don't like certain things that men do within Christ's church. I'm sure you dont like it when Protestant churches fight, splinter, split, do stupid stuff, as they tend to do

Stuff happens in our church and we've survived. Always will
jrico2727
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Jabin said:

Captain Pablo said:

Jabin said:

Good thing that you guys have a central authority to establish clear doctrine that will prevent local clergy from "mangling" things, a habit for which you constantly criticize Protestants.

This should convince lots of Protestants of the error of their ways and the superiority of the RCC approach!


Oh pi** off

This isn't about y'all
LOL. Nice Christ-like response.

It appears that you don't like it when the RCC's hypocrisy and fundamental errors are displayed for all to see.
So first you commit calumny, to what spike the ball, celebrating other's pain,
then get the exact response you were seeking to come back with another swipe at the church

Then wrap it up with nice Christ like response


you may want to look at the giant log in your own eye first brother.


To your point the teaching is clear. That is why the scandal is great. This will not end the way pope Francis wants it to.

I pray for him and you


Please pray for me as we are all sinners
Captain Pablo
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PabloSerna said:

Its not what you think it is.

ETA: It is not marriage to be clear.


Here we go
Terminus Est
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PabloSerna said:

Its not what you think it is.

ETA: It is not marriage to be clear.


Even better, it is not approving or legitimizing of gay relationships either
jrico2727
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PabloSerna said:

Its not what you think it is.

ETA: It is not marriage to be clear.
I thought we couldn't bless sin

See Pope Francis (and you) last month, lol

It is exactly what we think it is

Jabin
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Quote:

I'm sure you dont like it when Protestant churches fight, splinter, split, do stupid stuff, as they tend to do
Of course I don't. But that aspect of Protestantism is what you RCC's argue distinguishes you from us.

My point is that you don't see yourselves very accurately.
PabloSerna
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Read it all before casting stones.

If a clear understanding of what is being laid out is important to you, please read in it's entirety the following:

1. Amoris Laetitia, papal post synodal exhortation on the joy of love. Particularly section 292.
2. Pope Francis's response to the Dubia submitted by 5 Cardinals from October 2023.

This new document by the Dicastery (RCC teaching magisterium) builds upon those and is dealing head on with the development by the German Church to more formalize same sex couple blessings. On the one hand, it is making clear that this is not marriage, on the other hand it is recognizing the love that exists between two persons. I need to read the latest, however, this is really saying the same things as the October response but with more direction at blessings for same sex couples.

More to come.
Terminus Est
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PabloSerna said:

Read it all before casting stones.


At least admit you know exactly how this will be practiced by Fr James Martin and the New Ways Ministry wing
Dacoldest
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It doesn't have to be marriage - it's that the practice should be unequivocally stated as immoral by the Church & condemned, and anything otherwise leads the Church astray from God.

Jude 1:4 NIV

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Terminus Est
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Dear Pablo, werent you telling us that the "God does not and cannot bless sin" conclusion from just two years ago was set in stone and we were making much ado about nothing?
vmiaptetr
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AG
This whole conversation is gay.
whatthehey78
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My Savior would not excuse, negotiate or otherwise appease sin. He would forgive sincere, repentant souls, but never open sin. Very slippery slope and RCC has ventured onto it.
RAB91
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Fr. Martin predictably spews that crap while Strickland has been removed. This pope continues to drive people away from the church.
Law361
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These are three quotes from the actual Vatican document that I found helpful:

"In such cases, a blessing may be imparted that not only has an ascending
value but also involves the invocation of a blessing that descends from
God upon those whorecognizing themselves to be destitute and in need
of his helpdo not claim a legitimization of their own status, but who beg
that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their
relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of the
Holy Spirit.
These forms of blessing express a supplication that God may
grant those aids that come from the impulses of his Spiritwhat
classical theology calls "actual grace"so that human relationships may
mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from
their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves
in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love."


"God never turns away anyone who approaches him! Ultimately, a blessing
offers people a means to increase their trust in God. The request for a
blessing, thus, expresses and nurtures openness to the transcendence,
mercy, and closeness to God in a thousand concrete circumstances of
life, which is no small thing in the world in which we live. It is a
seed of the Holy Spirit that must be nurtured, not hindered."

"Indeed, through these blessings that are given not through the ritual
forms proper to the liturgy
but as an expression of the Church's
maternal heartsimilar to those that emanate from the core of popular
pietythere is no intention to legitimize anything, but rather to open
one's life to God, to ask for his help to live better, and also to
invoke the Holy Spirit so that the values of the Gospel may be lived
with greater faithfulness."



chimpanzee
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Seems the protocol is to

1) acknowledge implicitly or explicitly that the couple is in an irregular or same sex relationship
2) ignore the sinful (or not) status of that relationship
3) provide general blessings for God's presence in their lives so long as it's not liturgical or confounded with marriage because blessings are good

Yeah, no way that won't lead to confusion about what actions have been literally blessed or not.





chimpanzee
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Notably absent is an emphasis on seeking Grace through these blessings to cease the sinful nature or practices in a given relationship. That seems, open for "discernment", or something. One may be left to reason that such concerns are less compelling than they used to be.
Terminus Est
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Law361 said:

These are three quotes from the actual Vatican document that I found helpful:

"In such cases, a blessing may be imparted that not only has an ascending
value but also involves the invocation of a blessing that descends from
God upon those *****cognizing themselves to be destitute and in need
of his helpdo not claim a legitimization of their own status, but who beg
that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their
relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of the
Holy Spirit.
These forms of blessing express a supplication that God may
grant those aids that come from the impulses of his Spiritwhat
classical theology calls "actual grace"so that human relationships may
mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from
their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves
in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love."


"God never turns away anyone who approaches him! Ultimately, a blessing
offers people a means to increase their trust in God. The request for a
blessing, thus, expresses and nurtures openness to the transcendence,
mercy, and closeness to God in a thousand concrete circumstances of
life, which is no small thing in the world in which we live. It is a
seed of the Holy Spirit that must be nurtured, not hindered."

"Indeed, through these blessings that are given not through the ritual
forms proper to the liturgy
but as an expression of the Church's
maternal heartsimilar to those that emanate from the core of popular
pietythere is no intention to legitimize anything, but rather to open
one's life to God, to ask for his help to live better, and also to
invoke the Holy Spirit so that the values of the Gospel may be lived
with greater faithfulness."




The last part is especially poignant and what gives me some hope, even though I know this will be abused to no end. "So that the values of the Gospel may be lived with greater faithfulness" i.e "stop living in sin".
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Don't worry, Rome. The reformers will clean up your mess again.
Aggie1205
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Could Francis just speak ex cathedra and open things up to same sex marriage?
Law361
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You must've missed this line in the first quote which mentions grace:

These forms of blessing express a supplication that God may grant those aids that come from the impulses of his Spirit what classical theology calls "actual grace" so that human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love."

"human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel...and freed from their imperfections and frailties" is just a nicer and more pastoral way to say "cease the sinful nature or practices in a given relationship." If you want to disagree with how it is said, that's a valid point of discussion; but it does say it.
PabloSerna
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That is exactly where this is going. Chastity is a virtue that even married couples struggle to attain.
Captain Pablo
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Jabin said:

Quote:

I'm sure you dont like it when Protestant churches fight, splinter, split, do stupid stuff, as they tend to do
Of course I don't. But that aspect of Protestantism is what you RCC's argue distinguishes you from us.

My point is that you don't see yourselves very accurately.


Of course we see ourselves accurately

We did distinguish ourselves from you for centuries

You think we are unaware of what this Pope is up to?
PabloSerna
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AG
I get New Ways Ministry email blast weekly. They were not as enthused about the Synod and will similarly see this laser pass (threading the needle) from Rome.

On the one hand, it heads off the German Church's more formalized blessings which have been going on. At the same time it addresses the concern by more conservative regions like Africa where the Bishop endorsed criminalizing homosexuality.

For our Protestant brothers and sisters, the RCC is global and these types of pastoral guidance take time to formalize. Some, many here, would gladly cast that first stone at Pope Francis. Go. Ahead.

I think he is very aware that this particular time in history is important to act and give guidance to the Bishops. If priests like Fr. Martin want to make it out to be more than it is- then that's on him.

I am seeing this as a way to bring people to the table and let them get closer to God. We all can benefit from the love of God and I am glad that these people don't have to feel excluded any longer.
AGC
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AG
Law361 said:

You must've missed this line in the first quote which mentions grace:

These forms of blessing express a supplication that God may grant those aids that come from the impulses of his Spirit what classical theology calls "actual grace" so that human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love."

"human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel...and freed from their imperfections and frailties" is just a nicer and more pastoral way to say "cease the sinful nature or practices in a given relationship." If you want to disagree with how it is said, that's a valid point of discussion; but it does say it.



Would you call that plausible deniability?
chimpanzee
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Law361 said:

You must've missed this line in the first quote which mentions grace:

These forms of blessing express a supplication that God may grant those aids that come from the impulses of his Spirit what classical theology calls "actual grace" so that human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love."

"human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel...and freed from their imperfections and frailties" is just a nicer and more pastoral way to say "cease the sinful nature or practices in a given relationship." If you want to disagree with how it is said, that's a valid point of discussion; but it does say it.


I did miss that.

I still think it would be more straightforward to state, "you may receive blessings and prayerful intentions from clergy after confession so that you may live chastely". That seems more theologically cohesive. The acknowledgement of a same sex couple arrangement that can receive blessings as distinct from any two people, friends, roommates, etc. is the confusing part.

 
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