Who are Jews? And how is Israel defined in the New Covenant?

10,129 Views | 223 Replies | Last: 11 mo ago by TheGreatEscape
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

And rejection of the sign of Jonah mentioned by the our Nazarene. Jonah preached to the Gentiles and they actually repented.

Abraham is said to be the heir of the world by faith and not through the law.

1%


Said by whom?


Genesis 14:19

{And he blessed him and said,

"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;"}


That doesn't say anything about him being the "heir to the world by faith." It just says a priest blessed Abram.
TheGreatEscape
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Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

Quote:

So please think it through and not just quote some Rabbinic Tradition on the matter.


If the discussion is about who is part of Bnei Yisrael, why would I ignore Jewish traditions on the issue? I don't care how you define idolatry, Judaism has its own definition of idolatry that emerged in a Jewish context over the millennia. Your definition is based on your faith and your cultural background. Judaism is not the same as Christianity, regardless of whether Christians claim the Hebrew Bible for themselves.


Deuteronomy 6:5 (ESV) The Shema

" 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Not loving the Lord your God with all of these aspects involved is the very definition of idolatry.

You are obviously not from the Orthodox Judaism tradition.

You are from the Reform Judaism, correct?


You're imposing your own definition of idolatry yet again. That's not the Jewish definition of idolatry.


Ok. Quote from your highest authority, please?


The Mishnah is pretty explicit with its prohibitions that idol worship refers to the religious worship of idols.

https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Avodah_Zarah.2.4?lang=bi


I saw nothing in the Mishnah which states that atheism is NOT idolatry.
TheGreatEscape
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Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

And rejection of the sign of Jonah mentioned by the our Nazarene. Jonah preached to the Gentiles and they actually repented.

Abraham is said to be the heir of the world by faith and not through the law.

1%


Said by whom?


Genesis 14:19

{And he blessed him and said,

"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;"}


That doesn't say anything about him being the "heir to the world by faith." It just says a priest blessed Abram.


And the blessing was written with authority. For Abram (Abraham) is the possessor of both heaven and earth.

Possessor means owner. Abraham is the owner of the earth.
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

And rejection of the sign of Jonah mentioned by the our Nazarene. Jonah preached to the Gentiles and they actually repented.

Abraham is said to be the heir of the world by faith and not through the law.

1%


Said by whom?


Genesis 14:19

{And he blessed him and said,

"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;"}


That doesn't say anything about him being the "heir to the world by faith." It just says a priest blessed Abram.


And the blessing was written with authority. For Abram (Abraham) is the possessor of both heaven and earth.

Possessor means owner. Abraham is the owner of the earth.


No. It's a title given to God. Not Abram. The Masoretic text is much clearer:
" And he blessed him, and said: 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth;"
https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0114.htm
TheGreatEscape
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What does the Septuagint read?
TheGreatEscape
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Genesis 14:19-22 (ESV)

{19 And he blessed him and said,

"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!"
And Abram gave him a tenth of everything. 21 And the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, but take the goods for yourself." 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have lifted my hand to the Lord, God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth,"}
TheGreatEscape
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Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

And rejection of the sign of Jonah mentioned by the our Nazarene. Jonah preached to the Gentiles and they actually repented.

Abraham is said to be the heir of the world by faith and not through the law.

1%


Said by whom?


Genesis 14:19

{And he blessed him and said,

"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;"}


That doesn't say anything about him being the "heir to the world by faith." It just says a priest blessed Abram.


And the blessing was written with authority. For Abram (Abraham) is the possessor of both heaven and earth.

Possessor means owner. Abraham is the owner of the earth.


No. It's a title given to God. Not Abram. The Masoretic text is much clearer:
" And he blessed him, and said: 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth;"
https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0114.htm


"The Masoretic Text[a] (MT or ; Hebrew: , romanized: Nss hamMsr, lit. 'Text of the Tradition') is the authoritative Hebrew and Aramaic text of the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) in Rabbinic Judaism. The Masoretic Text defines the Jewish canon and its precise letter-text, with its vocalization and accentuation known as the mas'sora. Referring to the Masoretic Text, masorah specifically means the diacritic markings of the text of the Jewish scriptures and the concise marginal notes in manuscripts (and later printings) of the Tanakh which note textual details, usually about the precise spelling of words. It was primarily copied, edited, and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries of the Common Era (CE). The oldest known complete copy, the Leningrad Codex, dates from the early 11th century CE."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text

Hahaha. You are using a rabbinic tradition edition with add ins from the 7th century AD and the 10th century AD and that's supposed to be impressive.

You all responded to the fact that you couldn't argue with the best and oldest texts of the Hebrew Bible…So you change the text in your own pride?

What does Moses state about adding and taking away from God's word?
Sapper Redux
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A number of modern Christian Bible translations use the Masoretic text. The text is far older than the oldest extant copy and the Masoretic text of Isaiah is identical to a text found with the Dead Sea Scrolls while the Septuagint text differs from every other known version. The question is one of translation of one word, but even without that, the honorific in question is being applied to God, not Abram.
TheGreatEscape
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Not the NASB nor the ESV….

But hey…physical-Israel is not what God has declared as the ultimate destination of Israel. It was the apart of the scaffolding.

Genesis 15:5-7 (ESV)

{5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.}

1%

Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

Not the NASB nor the ESV….

But hey…physical-Israel is not what God has declared as the ultimate destination of Israel. It was the apart of the scaffolding.

Genesis 15:5-7 (ESV)

{5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.}

1%


You're very hung up on population demographics about 4000 years after Abraham supposedly lived. Is the promise supposed to be fulfilled by 2023?
TheGreatEscape
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You better join us because even if it's 10,000 years from now when Christ returns, we will still outbreed you for planet earth. Abraham is the heir of the world. I don't care what textual variant those folks used after Christ's prophesy was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

He prophesied that to the current generation listening at the time of the event that they would not pass away until this was fulfilled. There is your sign, elder brother.

Jesus also prophesied that he would return to judge the living and the dead.
TheGreatEscape
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Hosea 3: 1-2 (ESV)

{Then the Lord told me, "Love your wife again, even though she is loved by others and has committed adultery. Love her as I, the Lord, love the Israelites, even though they have turned to other gods and love to eat raisin cakes."

2 So I bought her for 23 ounces of silver and 10 bushels of barley. 3 Then I told her, "You must wait for me a long time. Don't be a prostitute or offer yourself to any man. I will wait for you."}


Isn't that what you are doing? Offering yourself to other people and things other than the Lord God almighty?

For Gomar, the Prophet Hosea's wife, represents Israel pursuing other lovers.

How you don't connect this to idolatry just baffles me.
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

You better join us because even if it's 10,000 years from now when Christ returns, we will still outbreed you for planet earth. Abraham is the heir of the world. I don't care what textual variant those folks used after Christ's prophesy was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

He prophesied that to the current generation listening at the time of the event that they would not pass away until this was fulfilled. There is your sign, elder brother.

Jesus also prophesied that he would return to judge the living and the dead.
Nah
TheGreatEscape
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We Judeo-Christians believe that physical-Jews and physical-Israel are now under the covenant of Hagar. Read this to understand why.

Galatians 4:21 (ESV) St. Paul a Pharisee

{21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."}

And here is the covenant of Hagar to Ismael.

Genesis 17:20-21 (ESV )


{20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year."}

Now you see after the destruction of the temple and all the heresy the physical-Jews have adopted in rejection of the continuation of the covenant through Christ perfect sacrifice; physical-Jews or physical-Israel have been blessed and have multiplied for their culture. Physical Jews have princes from all twelve tribes of Israel. They have been made a great nation.

Not nations nor continue to bless all the families of the earth, etc…


1% is pretty impressive for how much of an high performance culture physical-Jews have under the covenant of Hagar.


Redstone
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AG
I wish I had more time this week for this important topic, but briefly:

The Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith and practice is the direct continuation and fulfillment of Temple faith and practice.

A full continuum of all aspects, fulfilled materially and most importantly spiritually - a kingdom not of this world.

Our Lord, the Pascal Lamb, fulfills His promises, including the prediction of Titus smashing Herod's Temple to smoldering rubble.

I hope all Jews - all of this large, diverse, confused term, from atheists to Kabbalah to Buddhist practitioners to orthodox, united only by rejection of the Nazarene …

I hope all consider this reality and come to Jesus Christ.
TheGreatEscape
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I found more on why most physical-Jews are voting left and are in support of abortion, which is the secular holy atonement for the sexual revolution.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-beginning-of-life-in-judaism/

The fetus doesn't have the rights of a born child on the basis of the Talmud.

http://www.reclaimingjudaism.org/teachings/when-does-life-begin-jewish-view

Sapper Redux
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Redstone said:

I wish I had more time this week for this important topic, but briefly:

The Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith and practice is the direct continuation and fulfillment of Temple faith and practice.

A full continuum of all aspects, fulfilled materially and most importantly spiritually - a kingdom not of this world.

Our Lord, the Pascal Lamb, fulfills His promises, including the prediction of Titus smashing Herod's Temple to smoldering rubble.

I hope all Jews - all of this large, diverse, confused term, from atheists to Kabbalah to Buddhist practitioners to orthodox, united only by rejection of the Nazarene …

I hope all consider this reality and come to Jesus Christ.


It's really not. It's not even close. Using similar words does not make it a continuation.
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

I found more on why most physical-Jews are voting left and are in support of abortion, which is the secular holy atonement for the sexual revolution.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-beginning-of-life-in-judaism/

The fetus doesn't have the rights of a born child on the basis of the Talmud.

http://www.reclaimingjudaism.org/teachings/when-does-life-begin-jewish-view




That's obvious in the Tanakh. A miscarriage is not treated the same as a murder. A fetus is not ensouled. This was a common Christian view as well for centuries. The "quickening," when the fetus began to kick, was considered the point at which it had a soul in traditional European practice.
TheGreatEscape
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Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

I found more on why most physical-Jews are voting left and are in support of abortion, which is the secular holy atonement for the sexual revolution.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-beginning-of-life-in-judaism/

The fetus doesn't have the rights of a born child on the basis of the Talmud.

http://www.reclaimingjudaism.org/teachings/when-does-life-begin-jewish-view




That's obvious in the Tanakh. A miscarriage is not treated the same as a murder. A fetus is not ensouled. This was a common Christian view as well for centuries. The "quickening," when the fetus began to kick, was considered the point at which it had a soul in traditional European practice.


Ok. But your Talmud clearly teaches that life does not begin at conception. It teaches that life begins after birth. You all are supposed to be the guardians of truth for culture and life.
Sapper Redux
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Life doesn't begin at fertilization any more than it begins when a sperm or egg are created. The fact that you don't like this doesn't mean anything to anyone else.
TheGreatEscape
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You folks are a huge influence on culture. For good and for bad…You folks provide the wood for the fire to burn in pro-abortion propaganda.
TheGreatEscape
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And science has come a long way since former European beliefs about the kicking thing.

Now we can hear the heart beat and see the pulse of the heart before a kick is ever made.

Repent! Repent! Repent!
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

You folks are a huge influence on culture. For good and for bad…You folks provide the wood for the fire to burn in pro-abortion propaganda.


Ah, yes. The super powerful, perfidious Jew. This is a new one.
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

And science has come a long way since former European beliefs about the kicking thing.

Now we can hear the heart beat and see the pulse of the heart before a kick is ever made.

Repent! Repent! Repent!


Last post on the abortion thing: we're talking personhood here. Ensoulment in the religious sense. Physiology is not the definition of that. Given that about half of fertilized embryos spontaneously abort at some point in the development process, it shouldn't be surprising that a number of cultures and religions view personhood as a step beyond mere fertilization.
TheGreatEscape
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Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

You folks are a huge influence on culture. For good and for bad…You folks provide the wood for the fire to burn in pro-abortion propaganda.


Ah, yes. The super powerful, perfidious Jew. This is a new one.


I don't blame only the physical-Jews. But we all know about the supply of wealth that happened with the Rothchilds. Stop with the playing of the victim. I even support the nation of Israel who were attacked first. I also think they may be important to that region, especially if they accept Christ Jesus.
TheGreatEscape
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Sapper Redux said:

TheGreatEscape said:

And science has come a long way since former European beliefs about the kicking thing.

Now we can hear the heart beat and see the pulse of the heart before a kick is ever made.

Repent! Repent! Repent!


Last post on the abortion thing: we're talking personhood here. Ensoulment in the religious sense. Physiology is not the definition of that. Given that about half of fertilized embryos spontaneously abort at some point in the development process, it shouldn't be surprising that a number of cultures and religions view personhood as a step beyond mere fertilization.


Yes…read Samuel 1. States basically this.
The Lord kills. The Lord makes alive.

You're describing a natural abortion which God's mysterious hand of providence convenes.
This in no way is any foundation of a future metaphysic of ethics that you have presented to the class.

You all may have been the first pupil to the chalkboard, but you are not on the chalkboard anymore and that is unfortunate and should be unacceptable to physical-Jews.

I know you socialist hate history. But it is what it is.

I read the book and we win in the end.
Repent and believe. Please. We need the physical-Jews to build a better life and for the life to come.
TheGreatEscape
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But now we know where the untethered secularist are getting their arguments.
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

But now we know where the untethered secularist are getting their arguments.
Stop it. You keep dancing around these antisemitic canards where the Jews are secretly to blame for everything you and other Christians don't like.

I've not seen any secularists making a pro-choice argument based on Jewish ethics about pregnancy. The most I've seen is linking the tradition to the broader history of personhood as a concept.
TheGreatEscape
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Well…I'm not worried about everyone else at this moment.

I'm concerned with the lies of the devil in the Talmud that support abortion so-called rights.

You all should worry about this transgression against God's holy Law.

And now I'm an antisemite because I call this Talmud a sin?

You are better than that.

"To much is given…much is required."

Jesus of Nazareth
BonfireNerd04
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TheGreatEscape said:

Well…I'm not worried about everyone else at this moment.

I'm concerned with the lies of the devil in the Talmud that support abortion so-called rights.

You all should worry about this transgression against God's holy Law.

And now I'm an antisemite because I call this Talmud a sin?

You are better than that.

"To much is given…much is required."

Jesus of Nazareth
You don't know what the Talmud actually says about abortion, only what propagandists have told you.
Sapper Redux
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There's no devil in Judaism.
TheGreatEscape
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Oh really?

{WASHINGTON Thousands of years of Jewish scripture make it clear that access to abortion care is a requirement of Jewish law and practice, according to Rabbi Karen Bogard.

"We preserve life at all costs," she said in an interview with States Newsroom. "But there is a difference between that which is living, and that which is not yet living."

Bogard is a rabbi at Central Reform Congregation in St. Louis, which is in the progressive tradition of Reform Judaism. She said that whether it's the Torah the first five books of the Old Testament in the Hebrew Bible or the Talmud the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law and theology those pieces of Jewish literature "really draw the difference between life and potential life."

But with the fall of Roe v. Wade in late June, some members of the Jewish faith as well as other religious groups find their beliefs in deep conflict with state laws that ban or greatly restrict abortion especially if a pregnant patient's life is in danger.

Since the Supreme Court's Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization decision, states now are permitted to craft their own laws regarding abortion, and in Bogard's home state of Missouri, the procedure is banned.

"Our congregants are heartbroken," she said. "It's really violating to be told what you can and can't do with your own self."

Legal challenges are resulting. The enactment of state laws that ban or restrict access to abortion has already sparked a lawsuit in Florida from a liberal Jewish congregation in the Sunshine State. In Ohio, another liberal Jewish congregation is joining the American Civil Liberties Union in a lawsuit against the state's six-week abortion ban.

A coalition of three dozen rabbis also filed a brief on a separate lawsuit in the Buckeye State, where physicians are challenging the new abortion law in the Supreme Court of Ohio.

Similar lawsuits are anticipated, not only from liberal Jewish congregations, but other religious groups as well.

According to Jewish law, a fetus is not considered a full human being and the biblical foundation for this is found in Exodus 21:22 of the Torah, a St. Louis rabbi pointed out in an interview. In fact, there are several passages in Jewish literature that make the distinction that the life of the person who is pregnant is prioritized.
There's currently a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Texas Houston Division filed by the Satanic Temple not to be confused with the Church of Satan on behalf of a member who argues the state's abortion ban violates that temple member's religious beliefs allowing access to an abortion ritual.

The ritual involves members repeating verses in a mirror to affirm body autonomy and repel any guilt, shame or discomfort that can surface when undergoing an abortion.

"There's going to be a wave of religious freedom lawsuits," Rabbi Daniel Bogard, who's married to Rabbi Karen Bogard, said. "We're going to find out if this country really believes in religious freedom, or whether this country believes in the freedom of a small minority to impose its will on the rest of us."

But it's unclear if these religious-based lawsuits challenging state abortion laws can win in court.

"We're very much in the wild, wild west of abortion law and religious law," said Candace Bond-Theriault, the director of racial justice policy and strategy at Columbia Law School's Center for Gender and Sexuality Law.

Jewish law

According to Jewish law, a fetus is not considered a full human being and the biblical foundation for this is found in Exodus 21:22 of the Torah, Rabbi Daniel Bogard said.

The translation reads: "When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman's husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning. But if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.…"

Rabbi Daniel Bogard said that the Jewish legal interpretation of these passages states that a fetus is not a person, because the miscarriage results in only monetary compensation, rather than the "life for life" punishment.

There are several other passages in Jewish literature that make the distinction that the life of the person who is pregnant is prioritized.

"If we're going to live in a religiously free society, we are each allowed to interpret these verses on our own for our own traditions and a minority in this country can't impose their conservative white Christian religiosity on the rest of us," Rabbi Daniel Bogard said.

The lawsuits challenging abortion laws are predominately filed by congregations that practice Reform Judaism, but Conservative Judaism also supports access to abortion.

The question of access to abortion gets more restrictive when it comes to Orthodox Judaism, but access to the medical procedure isn't barred, says Yedida Eisenstat, a fellow at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University in Atlanta.

"Abortion in Judaism absolutely does have a place, and within Jewish law, there absolutely is a place for abortion," she said. "Judaism is not anti-abortion, like Christianity is, so it absolutely does make sense for Jewish congregations to be saying, 'Hey, this is a violation of our religious rights.'"

Eisenstat specializes in Jewish biblical interpretation and also works as an editorial associate at the Posen Library of Jewish Culture and Civilization.

"Judaism doesn't have one voice or one opinion or one ruling about everything," she said, adding that every situation is different and "there's all this other gray area," when it comes to theoretical cases in Jewish law pertaining to abortion.

And interpretations on abortion in Jewish law, or Halacha, vary across American Jewish denominations.

"We use the theoretical cases to illuminate other cases just like in American law so there isn't one blanket answer for every situation, every situation has its own nuances," she said. "And again, that's why this is a decision, a very personal decision, not one that the government should be making."

The Rabbinical Assembly, a major institution of Conservative Judaism, condemned the Supreme Court's ruling in Dobbs.

"Denying individuals access to the complete spectrum of reproductive healthcare, including contraception, abortion-inducing devices and medications, and abortions, among others, on religious grounds, deprives those who need medical care of their Constitutional right to religious freedom," the organization said in a statement.

Orthodox Judaism is typically more aligned with Christian conservative views on religious liberty issues, Eisenstat said, but differs on the belief that life begins at conception.

Following the Dobbs decision, the Rabbinical Council of America and Agudath Israel, large organizations that represent Orthodox Jewish communities, urged states to consider exceptions to expand abortion access.

"As the debate over abortion rights enters this new phase, we encourage states to craft policies that will simultaneously express the great value we place on life as well as protecting the rights to abortion when warranted by Jewish law," the Rabbinical Council of America said in a statement.}


https://tennesseelookout.com/2022/08/26/jewish-congregations-mount-legal-challenges-to-state-abortion-bans/
TheGreatEscape
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Sapper Redux said:

There's no devil in Judaism.


So the serpent in the garden of Eden represent culture? I can see that.
Sapper Redux
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TheGreatEscape said:

Sapper Redux said:

There's no devil in Judaism.


So the serpent in the garden of Eden represent culture? I can see that.


The serpent is just a serpent.
TheGreatEscape
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Check out the imagery of the serpent in this collection of verses. Obviously represent evil and alludes to the spirit world.

Ignore the New Testament verses.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-serpent/
 
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