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The large and diverse term "Judaism" AFTER 70 when Titus smashed the Temple has as its ONLY unifying definition rejection of the Nazarene.

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This is not true at all. Not only did a large percentage of Jews not live in Christian lands (Babylon and later Baghdad was a major Jewish center), Judaism as a religion and ethnic group is far more than Christianity without Jesus. Jesus doesn't factor into Jewish worship or celebrations at all and never has. He's just not important. He didn't fulfill the requirements of the Messiah to the majority of Jews and they reject him as such. So he's one of many failed self-proclaimed messiahs for Jews. His followers come up often in conversation and in how Jews present themselves to the world because of the centuries of violence and persecution that Christians have attacked Jews with.

Redstone said:

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THEOLOGY, NOT "RACE"
70AD

Here is the best way to think through this difficult subject.

Semitic?

My Christian grandmother from Aleppo was a Semite.

She spoke a Semitic language.

I REJECT THE RACIAL INVENTION OF THIS TERM BY WILHELM MARR IN 1879.

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion with a shared genetic background and a concept of people as both culture and relation that goes back to ancient concepts of peoplehood. It doesn't fit modern definitions dividing ethnicity and religion. A person can be born from Jewish parents and give up being Jewish by doing things like worshipping idols (and Jews who convert to Christianity are seen as engaging in idolatry) while a convert can become Jewish after undergoing a long conversion process and be adopted into the tribe.

Jews don't really claim to be "Semites" as some racial denominator, it's a useless category of languages. Antisemite is used because it has a long history of usage and replaced the crude term "Juden Hass."

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We can genetically trace Jews throughout the diaspora to the Levant. Quite easily and done repeatedly. As has been shown in past threads on this topic.

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Wrong. And extremely wrong if you're suggesting any genetic markers further than a millennium. Take that argument up with Reich. But we have discussed it in the threads I linked, true.

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Also, there's zero evidence that the Essenes converted.

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This large and prominent group was gone quickly after Christ. Related, there is a 2,000 year old Christian tradition of mass conversion. I consider that evidence and you don't - OK.

Jews pre-Christ lived in many places. And travel to and worship in the Temple was central to faith and practice. Essential. The center of faith. When Titus decimated it, and Jerusalem lay in smoldering ruins, a new set of faith and practices emerged. This was a large-scale break.

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Jesus doesn't factor into Jewish worship or celebrations at all and never has. He's just not important.

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Strong agree. Except for anytime before 70.

Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David and the prophets worshipped the Triune God, ever-present before and after the Incarnation.

And it's certainly true that Jews after-70 have had many failed messiahs.

And many failed attempts to re-build the Temple. Check out Julian the Apostate. A lot of people died in that attempt.

Back to "messiahs"

Including an extremely important one that converted to Islam. In fact, he was thought to be "the messiah" in most of Europe, wasn't he? For many years?

Maybe we should detail Sabbatai Zevi. What a total disaster that was.

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Antisemite is used because it has a long history of usage

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Wrong. This was invented whole cloth a little more than a century ago.

Oswald Rufeisen
Prominent Jewish family, many murdered by Hitler, wanted to return to Israel, "not a Jew" according to Israeli Supreme Court.
Why?
Convert to Catholicism

Norman Lear
Extremely prominent Jew
ALSO - not a Jew. When he was 100.
Why?
Convert to Catholicism

Israel Zolli
Once, chief rabbi in Italy. Extremely prominent Jewish family
Not a Jew
Why?
Convert to Catholicism

Ivanka Trump
Baptized a Christian
BUT - Jewish
Why?
Renounced baptism, formally, in conversion

Atheists and Jewish
MANY

Buddhist practices and Jewish
MANY

NOW

What does all this suggest?

That Judaism is an ethnoreligion with rules for inclusion or exclusion that may not make sense to you but do to them. One of the big ones is no idolatry. An atheist born to a Jewish mother is not committing idolatry, so no problem. Christianity, in addition to being the faith that has done more harm to Jews than any other, is viewed as idolatry.

Redstone said:

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Antisemite is used because it has a long history of usage

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Wrong. This was invented whole cloth a little more than a century ago.

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Over a century and a half ago. And it's been in common usage since. Would you prefer we go back to Juden Hass? Would that satisfy you?

It has been in common use as a weaponized term since Wilhelm Marr made it racial, supercharged by Germanic pagans also upset with Zionism (although the Nazis and Zionists were quite cooperative in the 1920s and 30s, which I'd be happy to discuss).

Recognizing such reality would be honest and satisfying.

As we've discussed many times, the central question is BEST definitions.

A negative view of the Nazarene messianic claim is far and away the best unifying aspect of the large, complex, confused term "Jew" post-70AD.

Redstone said:

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Jews pre-Christ lived in many places. And travel to and worship in the Temple was central to faith and practice. Essential. The center of faith. When Titus decimated it, and Jerusalem lay in smoldering ruins, a new set of faith and practices emerged. This was a large-scale break.

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Jesus doesn't factor into Jewish worship or celebrations at all and never has. He's just not important.

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Strong agree. Except for anytime before 70.

Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David and the prophets worshipped the Triune God, ever-present before and after the Incarnation.

And it's certainly true that Jews after-70 have had many failed messiahs.

And many failed attempts to re-build the Temple. Check out Julian the Apostate. A lot of people died in that attempt.

Back to "messiahs"

Including an extremely important one that converted to Islam. In fact, he was thought to be "the messiah" in most of Europe, wasn't he? For many years?

Maybe we should detail Sabbatai Zevi. What a total disaster that was.

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Synagogues existed throughout the Jewish world in the second temple era and seem to have been the site of worship of some form in addition to reading the Torah and learning. The loss of the Temple did not destroy every Jewish tradition or mode of worship. It did not alter the theology of the Pharisees or the composition of the Tanakh. The loss of the Temple meant a change in the form of worship but not the beliefs behind the worship.

I'm just going to ignore the triune bit. There's zero evidence of a trinity in the Hebrew Bible. You have to insert that into the text. Yes, several failed attempts to rebuild. Julian's offer was mostly ignored. Other attempts were destroyed by Christians.

Redstone said:

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As we've discussed many times, the central question is BEST definitions.

A negative view of the Nazarene messianic claim is far and away the best unifying aspect of the large, complex, confused term "Jew" post-70AD.

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No it isn't. At all. You assert that with no evidence.

I ask:

What is the unifying characteristic of "Jewish" ?

What unites the many atheist founding fathers and mothers of nation-state Israel (it's true, look it up) AND orthodox practice and the much in-between?

Redstone said:

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It has been in common use as a weaponized term since Wilhelm Marr made it racial, supercharged by Germanic pagans also upset with Zionism (although the Nazis and Zionists were quite cooperative in the 1920s and 30s, which I'd be happy to discuss).

Recognizing such reality would be honest and satisfying.

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"Made it racial"? It was created as a racialized term to describe hatred of Jews from the beginning.

Also, Nazis and Zionists were not cooperative. Zionists were trying to get Jews out of a rapidly deteriorating situation in Germany and attempted to play to the Nazis by using language they liked.

First, Julian didn't make an offer. He tried. A lot of people died.

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Synagogues existed throughout the Jewish world in the second temple era and seem to have been the site of worship of some form in addition to reading the Torah and learning.

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Agree. Jesus taught in several, even outside Judea.

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The loss of the Temple did not destroy every Jewish tradition or mode of worship. It did not alter the theology of the Pharisees or the composition of the Tanakh.

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Agree. The Pharisees were the seed of Talmudic practice. That writing 300 years or so after Christ. The re-invention quite different from the Torah.

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The loss of the Temple meant a change in the form of worship but not the beliefs behind the worship.

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Really? Should we detail Temple practice? Such as, say, the mass sacrifices that were massively important to belief?

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Made it racial"? It was created as a racialized term to describe hatred of Jews from the beginning.

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Marr and his followers made it explicitly racial in a very deliberate effort to turn the term from linguistics. Read about it. This is well established.

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Also, Nazis and Zionists were not cooperative.

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Very wrong. Do you wish to discuss this decade long and very monetary involved topic?

Source of the above assertion?
Zionist Federation of Germany, 1920s and 1930s
Jdische Rundschau - "Jewish Review"
And much else
Quoted where
Zionism in the Age of Dictators
by Lenni Brenner

Check it out

Edit
companion volume
51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis

Redstone said:

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I ask:

What is the unifying characteristic of "Jewish" ?

What unites the many atheist founding fathers and mothers of nation-state Israel (it's true, look it up) AND orthodox practice and the much in-between?

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Ethnoreligion. A group of people who share a common heritage and culture typically tied to a common religion. There's an old story of two rabbis who spent all night discussing God and arriving at the incontrovertible conclusion that God didn't exist. In the morning, one rabbi looked out his window to see the other going to synagogue. He asked, "Why are you going to service when we proved God doesn't exist?" The other responded, "What does that have to do with it? I go where my people are."

You make everything about your faith. You try to shoehorn your beliefs in as an explanation for millennia of traditions held by a people who have been through more than you can imagine and still maintained their identity and culture. Ethnoreligion is an ancient idea that doesn't transfer well onto the dichotomies that modern proselytizing religions like Christianity and Islam place on religion versus ethnicity or peoplehood.

Redstone said:

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Made it racial"? It was created as a racialized term to describe hatred of Jews from the beginning.

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Marr and his followers made it explicitly racial in a very deliberate effort to turn the term from linguistics. Read about it. This is well established.

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Also, Nazis and Zionists were not cooperative.

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Very wrong. Do you wish to discuss this decade long and very monetary involved topic?

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The reason for antisemitism was to replace Juden Hass as a more polite form of discourse about the hatred of Jews. The Germans who popularized the term were only concerned about Jews. Semitic is a worthless category.

"Monetary involved." Oh joy, are we going into "money grubbing Jews," territory now? I'm aware of the history. Do you read anything that doesn't support your existing beliefs?

An "Ethnoreligion" that includes atheists and Kabbalah and quite precise and faithful orthodox and much else is …. What?

Be specific.

My characterization - best definition is negative, the Nazarene is not the messiah - is fair

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Monetary involved." Oh joy, are we going into "money grubbing Jews," territory now

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Really? Weak.

Large-scale cooperation
Millions - in 1920s and 1930s money
Heavily documented (check it out)
So….important and noteworthy, exactly as I posted.

The above rhetorical trick is amusing, but weak weak weak.

Redstone said:

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Monetary involved." Oh joy, are we going into "money grubbing Jews," territory now

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Really? Weak.

Large-scale cooperation
Millions - in 1920s and 1930s money
Heavily documented (check it out)
So….important and noteworthy, exactly as I posted.

The above rhetorical trick is amusing, but weak weak weak.

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You cited a book lauded by Holocaust deniers for your main source. A book widely derided by actual academics. Try again.

Redstone said:

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An "Ethnoreligion" that includes atheists and Kabbalah and quite precise and faithful orthodox and much else is …. What?

Be specific.

My characterization - best definition is negative, the Nazarene is not the messiah - is fair

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So are Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and Shintoists now Jews as well? Since they also don't believe the Nazarene is the messiah.

You talking about the academic Jewish Marxist WITH MANY, UNCONTESTED PRIMARY DOCUMENTS

Try again

Of course not. I'm talking about explicit rejection of the Nazarene as an organizing principle.

That is unique.

Redstone said:

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You talking about the academic Jewish Marxist WITH MANY, UNCONTESTED PRIMARY DOCUMENTS

Try again

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You're talking about a guy regularly identified as an antisemite / self-hating Jew who is promoted by Holocaust deniers and whose thesis has been trashed by mainstream academics. You'd do well to actually read on the subject instead of selecting the guy who says what you want to hear.

https://fathomjournal.org/an-antisemitic-hoax-lenni-brenner-on-zionist-collaboration-with-the-nazis/

Redstone said:

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Of course not. I'm talking about explicit rejection of the Nazarene as an organizing principle.

That is unique.

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But it's not the Jewish organizing principle. That you can't wrap your head around what it means to be an ethnoreligion doesn't mean it all goes back to your religion. Judaism is an ancient faith whose main tenets existed before Christianity, continued after Jesus died, and continued after Christianity broke from Judaism and became politically powerful. The Jewish people are similarly ancient and tied by both blood and faith together as one people. The boundaries between inclusion and exclusion are sometimes muddled but not driven by your religion.

Why would I care that Institute for Historical Review and some black activists have praised him - alongside a lot of praise from leftist, Jewish, anti-Zionists?
Or that Ron Unz admires his scholarship? Or that the ADL predictably hates him?
Seriously who cares, including such name-calling as your post above?

ARE THOSE HUNDREDS OF PRIMARY DOCUMENTS ACCURATE, AS ISRAELI HISTORIANS SUCH AS SAND HAVE ASKED?

They are.

My summaries on this thread are fully accurate.
Check it out.

The reason I state that Christianity is older than Judaism is the very large-scale break of 70. The massive trauma and necessity of re-definition.

Which actually we've come to some consensus about on those above linked threads.

I respect our conclusions are different. But it's also quite obvious that 33 and 70 were earth shaking years in the context of Levant religious faith and practice. Which impacted every single other Jewish house of worship. Why? Because the Temple was central. It was the center of that world.

I repent for everything that our ancestors did that aided to conflict. But do you see that the ethnic Hebrews have not made any repentance and that just maybe hate breeds hate from their side as well?
We are humans with Imago Dei.

This is still going on today.







And are you sure this wasn't going on in Germany!

Or was this not common with the ethnic Jewish bolsheviks when they slaughtered thousands of Christians who objected to Marxism in Russia in 1917-1918?

Definitions matter where terms are weaponized.
Jewish
Zionist
Semitic
Be specific!

Christians must affirm the inherent humanity of all God's creation, AND demand honest conversation. No more semantic games. More light, less heat.

I oppose Zionism and am not sympathetic to most nationalism. I am a Catholic first, proud of my Semitic Syrian heritage and the 2,000 year old Christian history of Aleppo, which embraced Logos Incarnate quickly, as did so many Jews and Gentiles of the 1st Century Levant.

33 and 70 are the two most important dates in world religious history. The Holy Cross is the dividing line of the world. Christ or Barabbas? I hope all convert to Logos Incarnate, especially Jews - because they are fully human, with agency, good actors and bad, and never should any person or group (group characteristics do exist in religion) be above criticism.

Amen and amen

I would just add that Sapper appears to me to be mostly defending Reform Judaism. Pretty sure that one cannot be an Orthodox Jew and be an atheist and still be adhering to the first major three of the Ten Commandments given to Moses.

Earthly pleasure and sensuality? Right, Sapper?

Have they found a woman who will take on a half-breed like you?

Sapper,

"to a study by Russian mathematician Nikolay Yemelyanov, Professor at St. Tichon's Orthodox University, during the seven years of Leninist rule from Russian Revolution in 1917 to Lenin's death in 1924 , almost 25,000 Orthodox priests were imprisoned and 16,000 were killed, for their Christian faith.

The same happened to Catholic priests. The secular English writer Martin Louis Amis has collected some significant sentences by dictator Vladimir Lenin: any religious idea, any idea of God is an indescribable abjection of the most dangerous kind, a plague of the most abominable. There are a million sins, disgusting facts, acts of violence, and physical contagions which are much less dangerous than the subtle and spiritual idea of God (quoted in M. Amis, Koba il terribile, Einaudi 2003).

After the Russian Revolution, Bolsheviks seized the power in the Sovietic Union (23-27 February 1917; Lenin took the power on October of the same year). The extermination of believers also continued after Lenin's death: Todd M. Johnson, Professor of Global Christianity and Director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, explained that the number of the Christian victims of atheist and Marxist regimes were 20 millions (15 millions from 1921 to 1950; 5 millions from 1950 to 1980). These numbers are confirmed by other studies, too. To them we should add the numbers of those who were tortured and imprisoned only for professing their faith in God and therefore being automatically considered enemies of the State."

https://www.uccronline.it/eng/2018/04/09/communism-killed-20-million-christians-a-real-atheist-inquisition/

So…the physical- Jews were definitely apart of the Bolsheviks. We know that.

Now why don't you pull out the number of physical-Jews that Christians have killed?

Then we can also evaluate the leadership's worldview.

Here is a pretty somewhat graciously given assessment of Jewish Bolsheviks. For it goes into their atheistic worldview.

https://socratic.org/questions/57a0f19a7c01494f5bbcead4

Thoughts have consequences.

Fascinating information from all of y'all. I had no idea Norman Lear had converted to Christianity.

I personally have always wondered what Paul meant when he wrote all Israel will be saved in Romans. Some people believe in replacement theology and Israel means the church. I personally believe it means literally all Jewish people will come to Christ.

What do y'all think?