The innocent Palestinians we should weap for.

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Aggrad08
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In reply to SirDippinDots • 1:12p, 10/20/23
AG
SirDippinDots said:
Aggrad08 said:
And what role did Israel play in the creation of Hamas? It's their bed too if you know your history


You're right. If those stubborn Jews would have just died this would not be necessary.


"This isn't a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a "counterweight" to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as "a creature of Israel.")
"The Israeli government gave me a budget," the retired brigadier general confessed, "and the military government gives to the mosques."
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. "I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face," he wrote.
They didn't listen to him. And Hamas, as I explain in the fifth installment of my short film series for The Intercept on blowback, was the result. To be clear: First, the Israelis helped build up a militant strain of Palestinian political Islam, in the form of Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood precursors; then, the Israelis switched tack and tried to bomb, besiege, and blockade it out of existence.
In the past decade alone, Israel has gone to war with Hamas three times in 2009, 2012, and 2014 killing around 2,500 Palestinian civilians in Gaza in the process. Meanwhile, Hamas has killed far more Israeli civilians than any secular Palestinian militant group. This is the human cost of blowback.
"When I look back at the chain of events, I think we made a mistake," David Hacham, a former Arab affairs expert in the Israeli military who was based in Gaza in the 1980s, later remarked. "But at the time, nobody thought about the possible results."

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It (theintercept.com)

How Israel helped create Hamas - The Washington Post

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces | The Times of Israel
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SirDippinDots
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 1:38p, 10/20/23
Governments do stupid things.

In other news, water is wet.

And the first holocaust is our fault for putting harsh penalties on Germany for WWI.

This is probably not a popular view but people should be accountable for their actions and not blame others or other governments.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to SirDippinDots • 2:29p, 10/20/23
AG
Almost every major action in this conflict is taken by a government or power structure largely independent of typical residents. You seem very willing to hold a typical non-violent Palestinian accountable for the actions of Hamas, but not a typical non-violent Israeli for IDF or Israeli government action.

In reality the actions committed against the non-violent people on both sides who are not in power isn't justified.

The holocaust line is too dumb to engage with, try harder. There is a very proximate and deliberate causal action between the israeli govenment and the existence of hamas. It would be more comparable if the allies secretly funded concentration camps in order to paint Germany in a bad light.
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bigtruckguy3500
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2:31p, 10/20/23
https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/

Interesting. Didn't realize there was a Greek Orthodox Church in Gaza.
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Zobel
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In reply to bigtruckguy3500 • 2:40p, 10/20/23
AG
Most Palestinian Christians are Orthodox.
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HarleySpoon
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In reply to Frok • 4:04p, 10/20/23
AG
Frok said:
HarleySpoon said:
Here is my proposed solution: Acknowledging of course that recorded history goes back 4,000 years in the region and that societies have come, gone, been conquered, conquered, returned, eliminated etc. But alas, here we are. How about if we take the what the British considered/called/referred to/ ruled in 1946 as Palestine and give the Arabs in that area 80% and give the Jews in the area 20%? Now you guys recognize each others' right to exist and go live in peace.


That's like saying, hey Longhorns, we'll give you the Big 12 and Aggies we will give you the SEC, now go live in peace.

Sure enough the ol' sippers will come storming over wanting to take our SEC.


Actually, it's more like the British gave Jordan to the Arabs and the sliver of Israel to the Jews. But, 90% wasn't enough for the Arabs.
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AgLiving06
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 5:23p, 10/20/23
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
You accuse us of not offering an alternative, but your option seems to just double on giving terrorists power and money. You want to act as if the last 16 years don't exist. You want CRT applied to this and it's just not going to work.
Gotta love the internet. I'm only suggesting that the Palestinians are human beings with inalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that the state of Israel has impinged on those rights for its entire existence. Apparently that makes me an advocate for critical race theory? And also my solution to the problem is granting Palestinians legal status and the ability to work and travel means that I just want to throw more aid money at them?

Yes...you've completely dismissed the last 16 years because it doesn't fit with the narrative you want to construct.

But again, since you've been avoiding my questions, I'll pose them again.

You want Palestianinas to be have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You want them to have legal status and the ability to work. Do you think Hamas, the ruling party of Gaza, just helped its people? Of course not.

So again...

Is Israel the oppressor of the Gaza? The answer is still no. That resides with Hamas.

Lets imagine that for the last 16 years, Hamas didn't use the water infrastructure to build missiles, and instead used it for actual water.

Lets imagine that instead of building 300+ miles of underground tunnels, that money went to the citizens?

Lets imagine Hamas actually wanted peace with Israel?

Lets imagine that peace led to more than the current 20k Gaza citizens who work in Israel (who all probably just lost their jobs due to Hamas).

Every single thing you claim you are for involves you acknowledging that Hamas is the oppressor of Gaza and the very reason that the people of Gaza cannot pursue those extra dreams because of Hamas.
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bigtruckguy3500
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In reply to bigtruckguy3500 • 1:48p, 10/21/23
bigtruckguy3500 said:
https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/

Interesting. Didn't realize there was a Greek Orthodox Church in Gaza.


Yeah, just didn't realize there was an actual church in Gaza. Have heard of quite a few in the West Bank. There was an article a few years ago about one of their priests talking about he says "Allahu Akbar" and other phrases with "Allah" in it, since he speaks Arabic . But he was in the West Bank.

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BonfireNerd04
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In reply to bigtruckguy3500 • 1:56p, 10/21/23
bigtruckguy3500 said:
bigtruckguy3500 said:
https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/

Interesting. Didn't realize there was a Greek Orthodox Church in Gaza.


Yeah, just didn't realize there was an actual church in Gaza. Have heard of quite a few in the West Bank. There was an article a few years ago about one of their priests talking about he says "Allahu Akbar" and other phrases with "Allah" in it, since he speaks Arabic . But he was in the West Bank.



"Allah" is just the Arabic word for capital-G "God". Christians and other religious minorities in Arabic-speaking countries pray to "Allah" all the time.

Except for Jews, because (1) they prefer to use the Hebrew "Adonai" or "Hashem", and (2) there are hardly any Jews left in Arabic-speaking countries these days.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 2:01p, 10/21/23
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
Your view of history is misinformed. They've been punished for relinquishing that power frequently. It'd be one thing to say they never tried but that's simply not the case. Power dynamic cannot be a short handed substitute here and is too simplistic when the freedoms allowed were exploited to murder the Israeli populace. As you said earlier it goes back decades.
So inform me. Everything I've run across on the subject shows a bunch of backwater Arabs in the Holy Land being slowly then quickly supplanted and displaced over the course of about 50 years. With more Arabs being forced into less land and worse living conditions in a slow, steady slide. To my knowledge, legal status, citizenship and the right to own property has never been offered to the Palestinians. The only time, of which I'm aware, that Israel gave up power was when they allowed the West Bank and Gaza strip to elect their own governments instead of being 100% a military occupation. They did that because the military occupation was failing horribly. I don't see that things got better or worse for Israel after making that decision.

So what other time did Israel cede power to the Palestinians individually or en masse and suffer for it?


There's no such thing as "inalienable human rights". There are only the rights that the society in which you exist had the capacity and willingness to grant you and protect. And the Arabs who live in Israel are granted more rights than any other group of Arabs/Muslims in the entire Middle East. Israel is BY FAR the best place in the entire region for an Arab Muslim to live, full stop. There's a reason why none of them want to leave and why many fight AGAINST other Muslim Arabs in the Israeli armed forces. It's why you don't see any widespread support for Hamas or Palestine among them like you do in nearly every other Arab/Muslim nation. It's why you see Arabs in major positions of authority including the Supreme Court. You know where gay Arabs aren't thrown off of buildings? Israel. Know where they are? Literally every other Muslim controlled nation on earth.

The plight of the Palestinian Arabs is largely of their own doing. They choose to reinforce the pathologies that lead to their predicament. They could rise up tomorrow and remove Hamas and vote in something better, but they don't.
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 2:28p, 10/21/23
AG
Quote:
There's no such thing as "inalienable human rights".

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Zobel • 2:51p, 10/21/23
AG
Zobel said:
Quote:
There's no such thing as "inalienable human rights".

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.



The idea that such a thing exists is an unfounded religious claim not rooted in logic or history. It's no different than claiming all humans have a small, invisible giraffe living in their bladder. I can't disprove that but I have literally no reason whatsoever to believe it is true.
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 3:14p, 10/21/23
AG
Sure, might makes right. No one has a right to life or freedom. Only reason it's bad for you to kill or enslave someone is because someone might kill you back. Killing a human is the same as squashing a mosquito. Totally normal take, dude.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Zobel • 3:20p, 10/21/23
AG
Zobel said:
Sure, might makes right. No one has a right to life or freedom. Only reason it's bad for you to kill or enslave someone is because someone might kill you back. Killing a human is the same as squashing a mosquito. Totally normal take, dude.


Whether or not it's right/justified to kill someone for X reason is completely unrelated to the claim that all humans have fundamental inalienable rights. No human believe dogs have such rights, but it still says something about a person who indiscriminately kills them.

But beyond that, your post is purely an emotional appeal. It amounts to "your claim is too horrifying to believe and most people won't own it if taken to its logical conclusion, so you're wrong". That's the argument a child makes for why something they are fearful of doesn't exist. It may or it may not, but not because they are scared of the ramifications if it is true.
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 3:34p, 10/21/23
AG
Quote:
Whether or not it's right/justified to kill someone for X reason is completely unrelated to the claim that all humans have fundamental inalienable rights.

Right, you get to invoke an arbitrary construct of right or justification but deny others. Clearly youve spent some time seriously thinking about this.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 4:23p, 10/21/23
This is truly the most nihilistic take I have ever seen on this board.

And I post on the gb. And I've read the zoo.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 4:34p, 10/21/23
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
This is truly the most nihilistic take I have ever seen on this board.

And I post on the gb. And I've read the zoo.


But does the fact that it makes you uncomfortable actually speak to the truth of it at all, either way?

Again, "it's too horrifying for me to accept" isn't an argument. It's an emotional screech.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Zobel • 4:36p, 10/21/23
AG
Zobel said:
Quote:
Whether or not it's right/justified to kill someone for X reason is completely unrelated to the claim that all humans have fundamental inalienable rights.

Right, you get to invoke an arbitrary construct of right or justification but deny others. Clearly youve spent some time seriously thinking about this.


Again, the "it's completely universal and unchanging or it's completely arbitrary" is a false dichotomy. That sort of rudimentary religious apologetics appeals to superficial peons but is fundamentally void of meaningful substance.
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swimmerbabe11
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4:50p, 10/21/23
In order to respond, I think I need to better understand your position.

What do you think is a right? who has them? who defines them? How does one obtain rights?
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 4:57p, 10/21/23
AG
Ah yes, the ol' "everyone who disagrees with me is an unenlightened rube" proof.

Get over yourself, you couldn't touch Locke's jockstrap.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 5:03p, 10/21/23
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
In order to respond, I think I need to better understand your position.

What do you think is a right? who has them? who defines them? How does one obtain rights?


Rights are a concept set forth by humans with the establishment of agrarian civilization which describe the things a given state/society/organizational structure is willing and capable of defending for its populace.

I as an American have the rights set forth by the DOI and Constitution only in as much as the United States can protect and defend those rights, and is willing to do so. There is nothing intrinsic or universal about them.

I like and enjoy those rights, and I firmly a believe a very consistent and logical argument can be made for certain systems of rights being superior for the advancement of civilization and the minimization of suffering than others, but they are not universal.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Zobel • 5:06p, 10/21/23
AG
Zobel said:
Ah yes, the ol' "everyone who disagrees with me is an unenlightened rube" proof.

Get over yourself, you couldn't touch Locke's jockstrap.


Plenty of people who disagree with me are far more intelligent than me. Locke was one of the great western thinkers. Which is why his position is fundamentally different from yours (mine as well).

I said YOUR posts are simplistic. Your attempt to compare yourself to Locke to defend your simplistic position is the only arrogance being displayed here.
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 5:09p, 10/21/23
AG
I don't think you have any idea what my position is. I just think yours is hilariously bad.

Right, I'm arrogant because I suggested that people who disagree with me are *checks notes* "superficial peons."
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 5:55p, 10/21/23
Infection_Ag11 said:
Zobel said:
Quote:
Whether or not it's right/justified to kill someone for X reason is completely unrelated to the claim that all humans have fundamental inalienable rights.

Right, you get to invoke an arbitrary construct of right or justification but deny others. Clearly youve spent some time seriously thinking about this.


Again, the "it's completely universal and unchanging or it's completely arbitrary" is a false dichotomy. That sort of rudimentary religious apologetics appeals to superficial peons but is fundamentally void of meaningful substance.

This reads like an SAT essay where the thought process is "if I string enough big words together for long enough, the grader won't bother to try to understand whether or not I've made a point"
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 5:57p, 10/21/23
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
Infection_Ag11 said:
Zobel said:
Quote:
Whether or not it's right/justified to kill someone for X reason is completely unrelated to the claim that all humans have fundamental inalienable rights.

Right, you get to invoke an arbitrary construct of right or justification but deny others. Clearly youve spent some time seriously thinking about this.


Again, the "it's completely universal and unchanging or it's completely arbitrary" is a false dichotomy. That sort of rudimentary religious apologetics appeals to superficial peons but is fundamentally void of meaningful substance.

This reads like an SAT essay where the thought process is "if I string enough big words together for long enough, the grader won't bother to try to understand whether or not I've made a point"


None of those are big words
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 6:07p, 10/21/23
AG
You see, there was nothing wrong with slavery, apartheid, or the holocaust, because rights come from the government.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 6:08p, 10/21/23
I said it sounded like something a high school senior would write, not a doctoral thesis.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Zobel • 6:11p, 10/21/23
That certainly seems to be what he is saying.

If a government has the right (through force and/or democracy) to assign rights and value to human life, then it can't be oppressive, because it is the one who makes the rules... until it loses power.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Zobel • 6:16p, 10/21/23
AG
Zobel said:
You see, there was nothing wrong with slavery, apartheid, or the holocaust, because rights come from the government.


You keep conflating rights with right.
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 6:19p, 10/21/23
AG
If humans have no inalienable rights, what makes it wrong?
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 6:25p, 10/21/23
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
That certainly seems to be what he is saying.

If a government has the right (through force and/or democracy) to assign rights and value to human life, then it can't be oppressive, because it is the one who makes the rules... until it loses power.


Again, the rights granted by a given state say nothing about the nature of those rights. They just are what they are. That doesn't even begin to imply that a given set of rights is worthwhile or maximizes human potential/minimizes suffering. One doesn't need a moral code granted from on high to determine that killing off a huge percentage of your productive population is objectively harmful to your society.

You guys are arguing straight from a Frank Turek book and it's not a flattering look.
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 6:29p, 10/21/23
Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Zobel • 6:29p, 10/21/23
AG
Zobel said:
If humans have no inalienable rights, what makes it wrong?


In terms of some universal moral code that you have no evidence actually exists, nothing. If the only meaning you can possibly find in existence requires such a thing, I've got nothing for you. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

In terms of the fundamental biological and social functions of life though, a lot.
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Zobel
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 6:29p, 10/21/23
AG
The entire point under debate has nothing to do with the rights that states grant.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Zobel • 6:31p, 10/21/23
AG
Zobel said:
The entire point under debate has nothing to do with the rights that states grant.


I agree, yet here we are.
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