Let me make this as basic as I can. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love the Lord with all your, heart, soul, and mind. The second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. I can get supporting Trump as the lesser of two evils or for public policy reasons you think override other concerns. I cannot get ignoring Jesus's instructions because the liberals are mean, which is what we saw Christians do en masse. Im talking about emulating or embracing a style of discourse that is self-evidently not Biblical instruction.

Malibu said:

---

Let me make this as basic as I can. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love the Lord with all your, heart, soul, and mind. The second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. I can get supporting Trump as the lesser of two evils or for public policy reasons you think override other concerns. I cannot get ignoring Jesus's instructions because the liberals are mean, which is what we saw Christians do en masse. Im talking about emulating or embracing a style of discourse that is self-evidently not Biblical instruction.

---

I do not think liberals are mean.

I just disagree with them on about every issue.

And libs do not understand that because they are so sure in their beliefs. They can not understand how a rational person, much less a Christian, could be a conservative.

I will be honest and state that I can not see how a Christian could vote for a politician who supports abortion.

I'm not sure how you're getting from this that I or other liberals* are so certain or rigid in our belief system that we can't fathom how other intelligent people of good will can come to a different political conclusion.

What I am fairly rigid on, because I did attend church 3x a week and studied the Bible weekly growing up and through young adulthood, is that the style (not substance) of Trump is not in any way supported by Jesus's teachings. But rather than call that out, I watched a shocking number of Christians embrace and emulate that style of civic conduct. The gap between how Christians act and how they are instructed to act is wide, and it noticeably changed with Trump.

*FTR, I wouldnt describe myself as liberal. I have voted 2x D, 2xR, 1xL in my Presidential voting history, and locally vote 75% R in CA. Quintessential concerned moderate.

dermdoc said:

---

Malibu said:

---

Let me make this as basic as I can. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love the Lord with all your, heart, soul, and mind. The second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. I can get supporting Trump as the lesser of two evils or for public policy reasons you think override other concerns. I cannot get ignoring Jesus's instructions because the liberals are mean, which is what we saw Christians do en masse. Im talking about emulating or embracing a style of discourse that is self-evidently not Biblical instruction.

---

I do not think liberals are mean.

I just disagree with them on about every issue.

And libs do not understand that because they are so sure in their beliefs. They can not understand how a rational person, much less a Christian, could be a conservative.

I will be honest and state that I can not see how a Christian could vote for a politician who supports abortion.

---

There are a lot of people on this website who don't seem to actually interact with or know that many liberals aside from what they see online.

Sapper Redux said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Malibu said:

---

Let me make this as basic as I can. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love the Lord with all your, heart, soul, and mind. The second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. I can get supporting Trump as the lesser of two evils or for public policy reasons you think override other concerns. I cannot get ignoring Jesus's instructions because the liberals are mean, which is what we saw Christians do en masse. Im talking about emulating or embracing a style of discourse that is self-evidently not Biblical instruction.

---

I do not think liberals are mean.

I just disagree with them on about every issue.

And libs do not understand that because they are so sure in their beliefs. They can not understand how a rational person, much less a Christian, could be a conservative.

I will be honest and state that I can not see how a Christian could vote for a politician who supports abortion.

---

There are a lot of people on this website who don't seem to actually interact with or know that many liberals aside from what they see online.

---

It couldn't possibly be that they act the same way we are accused of acting and cut themselves off from us…or it is because I have just as many anecdotes of that as y'all do. Everyone here is comfortable with their caricatures and runs to post articles confirming their beliefs. It's why the blue stars are hot and heavy for the left in this thread.

dermdoc said:

---

There is a reason the LGBT percentage has gone from a steady 3-5% to 20-30% in teens and young adults.

---

Have you seen a chart of historical rates of left-handedness?

Malibu said:

---

If I may, I think theres a few things to parse out. There is our two-choice electoral system that forces people to take one of two bad choices. To put it in the most hyperpartisan strawman terms, 2020 was a choice between transgendered radicals that wanted no borders, free college, and no police versus a fascist personality cult that was ready to overthrow democracy and ignore the Constitution and objective truth to support the whims of a narcissistic conman who put tariffs on China. Pick one side and defend it.

---

I thought you were trying to distinguish between the two sides, not make a list of their similar qualities.

Quote:

---

And they try to then use the common ploy of "hypocrisy" by Christians because of Trump's sins and personality. Yet are blind when Bill Clinton did the same stuff but was more polished.

---

If I may, its that we noticed Christians started acting more like Trump and less like Christ after 2016.

dermdoc said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

Why are they apples and oranges?

---

Did you read my post?

Left handedness did not change 5-6 fold in basically one generation.

---

Its probably both social contagion and a relaxation of social taboos around gay issues Bad on the former, good on the latter.

dermdoc said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

Why are they apples and oranges?

---

Did you read my post?

Left handedness did not change 5-6 fold in basically one generation.

---

It's around 3-4x and happened over a slightly longer time frame. Other than that, why aren't they comparable phenomena?

dermdoc said:

---

Malibu said:

---

Quote:

---

And they try to then use the common ploy of "hypocrisy" by Christians because of Trump's sins and personality. Yet are blind when Bill Clinton did the same stuff but was more polished.

---

If I may, its that we noticed Christians started acting more like Trump and less like Christ after 2016.

---

I only saw that in the media. Certainly not in my church or with my Christian friends.

Since you believe that, do you think that the dems went further left than they had been historically? With things like Antifa, BLM, reduction of police force, etc.?

They may have been "nicer" than Trump but they took a very hard left turn about ten-20 years ago.

These are not JFK dems.

---

You know, I'm very tempted to go through each of these right wing boogiemen, but I think that would completely derail.

I will say this...I find it incredibly fascinating that the rest of the world would view one of our strongest left leaning politicians of the last few decades, Bernie Sanders, as incredibly centrist. Bernie is not considered a liberal or leftist by most of our allies. I think that really speaks to where "the center" is in this country.

dermdoc said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Have you ever thought that what you think is "hateful" is not perceived that way by conservative Christians?

And I know you do not get it as it seems so clear to you.

And I will quit posting on this thread as it is starting to anger me. It seems as if you can not understand how conservative Christians could say the same about Biden, Obama, etc. They seem to attack our beliefs and basic identity.

If you do not understand that then we can not discuss this.

---

I understand why Christians are upset with liberals. Do you understand why liberals are upset with Christians?

---

Sure. But when I post my rebuttals to your statements, you tell me I am engaging in a political pissing match, correct?

Are you not doing the same thing?

---

I started this thread by trying to refresh the original topic.

And now, I'm doing nothing but defend myself against stuff I didn't say. Am I engaging in a pissing match? Where did I say dems are better than reps? Where did I say only republicans say hateful things? I have gone out of my way to say that there are a ton of things wrong with the left. And you interpret me saying the left has problems as pissing on republicans. WTF is wrong with you?

At this point I'm arguing that our discourse is broken. Its broken because the mere fact that I post ANYTHING to you means that I'm trashing conservatives and Christians. You simply aren't reading my posts. I asked you if you understand why liberals are upset with Christians and you take that to mean I'm ****ting on Republicans.

Goof ****ing grief man. . . . . .now you got me upset. This is why I hate politics on this board. No one ****ing reads. They just say "oh, Kurt's a liberal and saying stuff, he hates Christians, so I need to defend myself and point out more stuff about how the democrats eat babies or some bull*****

schmendeler said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

There is a reason the LGBT percentage has gone from a steady 3-5% to 20-30% in teens and young adults.

---

Have you seen a chart of historical rates of left-handedness?

---

Also, that statistic is absolute nonsense.

The biological imperative to procreate will likely self-correct these figures for Gen Z. I have no idea how they asked the questions nor how Gen Z thinks, but I can imagine a potential hypothesis that certain common innocuous thought patterns are causing a higher % of younger respondents to self-identify as LGBTQ in a way that previous generations would not have. Like a 16-20 year old girl thinking about kissing another girl in GenX would not self-identify as being bisexual, whereas Gen Z would, even if both are equally likely to ultimately marry men and become mothers.

Malibu said:

---

The biological imperative to procreate will likely self-correct these figures for Gen Z. I have no idea how they asked the questions nor how Gen Z thinks, but I can imagine a potential hypothesis that certain common innocuous thought patterns are causing a higher % of younger respondents to self-identify as LGBTQ in a way that previous generations would not have. Like a 16-20 year old girl thinking about kissing another girl in GenX would not self-identify as being bisexual, whereas Gen Z would, even if both are equally likely to ultimately marry men and become mothers.

---

I think that's exactly it. I think a lot of kids these days think of it as spectrum, rather than fitting into one letter category.

dermdoc said:

---

Malibu said:

---

The biological imperative to procreate will likely self-correct these figures for Gen Z. I have no idea how they asked the questions nor how Gen Z thinks, but I can imagine a potential hypothesis that certain common innocuous thought patterns are causing a higher % of younger respondents to self-identify as LGBTQ in a way that previous generations would not have. Like a 16-20 year old girl thinking about kissing another girl in GenX would not self-identify as being bisexual, whereas Gen Z would, even if both are equally likely to ultimately marry men and become mothers.

---

So you are admitting these people are not really LGBT?

---

You're assuming hard and fast lines in human sexuality. It doesn't work like that, only the rigid social definitions we impose on everyone demand clear identification with a specific category.

Macarthur said:

---

Ultimately, we should get to a point where it doesn't matter. Seriously, why should you care who someone loves?

---

If everything happened in a vacuum then it wouldn't matter. I changed my mind when I had children. I want them to have a healthy conception of human sexuality, our bodies, the procreative act. What it's for and what it isn't, and what sex is, and what it isn't.

I can't be indifferent when children are being taught that homosexuality is equal in value, and exactly the same as heterosexual relationships in every way. There's no truth in it.

The adoption of children into second rate circumstances, the IVF, surrogacy, and abortion industries are all great evils at least tangentially related to societies' changing attitudes on gay "marriage", children as the product of marriage, and marriage being for the procreation and education of children. For THEIR benefit, and not for the enjoyment of adults.

I really believe that societies' health and happiness are at stake, and that's why I care.