MAGA > Jesus?

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Macarthur
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:01p, 8/14/23
Ok, but you know illegal entry is a misdemeanor. I hope you guys want to invest as much time, money and emotion to all other misdemeanors.

And I do believe we need major immigration reform and I'm not for open borders. The problem, as I see it from the right, is that the R's really have no intention of doing any sort of real immigration reform because it takes away a huge talking point they can use to instill fear in people.

Go back and listen to what R's said about immigration in the past. It might surprise you.
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Macarthur
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1:05p, 8/14/23
As for charities, I agree w your point, but w two big caveats.

Historically, 99.9% of the world has been religious so claiming charities from folks of faith is kinda of a "duh" proposition.

Second, there have been some research into this and if you take away the normal tithe that people give to their church, which counts as charitable, that gap is significantly lower. And I think that's important with churches propensities these days for spending money on climbing walls and coffee shops.
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schmendeler
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1:05p, 8/14/23
AG
That fact that illegal immigrant crime was brought up shows the talking points and attitude on the right are pervasive and accepted.
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The Banned
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In reply to Macarthur • 1:18p, 8/14/23
Macarthur said:
Ok, but you know illegal entry is a misdemeanor. I hope you guys want to invest as much time, money and emotion to all other misdemeanors.

And I do believe we need major immigration reform and I'm not for open borders. The problem, as I see it from the right, is that the R's really have no intention of doing any sort of real immigration reform because it takes away a huge talking point they can use to instill fear in people.

Go back and listen to what R's said about immigration in the past. It might surprise you.


I would state the left also has no framework For immigration reform outside of amnesty. I think this is a topic where both sides fail to show any imagination in coming to a solution.
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Macarthur
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In reply to The Banned • 1:22p, 8/14/23
I disagree. D's have proposed numerous immigration reforms. Now, you may disagree w the provisions but it's been blocked recently from even being on the table.
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The Banned
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In reply to schmendeler • 1:25p, 8/14/23
schmendeler said:
That fact that illegal immigrant crime was brought up shows the talking points and attitude on the right are pervasive and accepted.


As a point of interest, the study is comparing felony arrests to total estimated undocumented population. It does not factor in misdemeanors, nor can it account for crimes where no arrest was made. It also has to make assumptions about the illegal alien population in Texas, which will never be more than an estimate.

I don't think the illegal population is a bunch of heathens creating more crime than the rest of humanity, but I would be very surprised if the true number wasn't much closer to the average.
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Macarthur
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In reply to The Banned • 1:30p, 8/14/23
There's no doubt that getting accurate data is a challenge, but there have been a number of attempts to account for this and things don't tend to change much. Bottom line is the VAST majority of these folks are coming here for a better life and are willing to work for it.

As was stated, the fact that crime even comes up in this discussion means that you have been seduced by talking points that want to distract you from the real issues, and in some ways, dehumanize these people.
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The Banned
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In reply to Macarthur • 1:33p, 8/14/23
Macarthur said:
I disagree. D's have proposed numerous immigration reforms. Now, you may disagree w the provisions but it's been blocked recently from even being on the table.


Maybe I've missed it, and a quick google search to refresh hasn't brought up anything good. I see plenty of talk about dreamers and pathways to citizenship for those already here, but I haven't seen much of any plan on what to do about the border itself, nor what to do with those that make it across.

meanwhile republicans answer is "no more whatsoever until the border is shut down".

Seems to me neither side is super excited about finding a middle ground, unless I'm flat out missing something
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The Banned
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In reply to Macarthur • 1:37p, 8/14/23
Macarthur said:
There's no doubt that getting accurate data is a challenge, but there have been a number of attempts to account for this and things don't tend to change much. Bottom line is the VAST majority of these folks are coming here for a better life and are willing to work for it.

As was stated, the fact that crime even comes up in this discussion means that you have been seduced by talking points that want to distract you from the real issues, and in some ways, dehumanize these people.


I would say that as someone who had several major cartel busts within a few miles of my childhood home, I don't think I've been seduced by a talking point. Moreover, as someone who is in support of Making legal immigration much easier, I do not believe I've been seduced by a talking point.

I would say you are making some rather severe assumptions and may want to check just what would give someone cause to believe said "talking points" outside of the thought they must just be a bunch of racists. Not saying that you have levied that charge, but it's typically where these conversations go with most people I've encountered
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Macarthur
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In reply to The Banned • 1:40p, 8/14/23
Drugs and cartels are a very diff conversation, IMO. Sure, there's some overlap, but you're referencing the war on drugs which requires a whole other set of steps that many are unwilling to even consider.
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The Banned
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In reply to Macarthur • 1:48p, 8/14/23
Macarthur said:
Drugs and cartels are a very diff conversation, IMO. Sure, there's some overlap, but you're referencing the war on drugs which requires a whole other set of steps that many are unwilling to even consider.


How are they different? Are they not both a product of an insecure border? And yes, I understand if there wasn't a market for it, legalized market, etc. Fact remains these are some of the people coming over illegally. As to the prior study, how many of these types of busts aren't made? If my tiny town can put up multiple busts a year, who knows what we aren't catching. You say I'm buying a talking point. I strongly disagree and would recommend you dropping that approach.

There are also plenty that come over illegally that are fine people and go on to raise more fine young people. If I was a Venezuelan or Mexican or any of the others down there, I'd do everything in my power to get the hell out of there. Hence the need for some sort of middle ground, which to date I have not found either side arguing for.
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Beer Baron
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3:46p, 8/14/23
AG
Late to the party and things have drifted a bit, but I think of this as one of those things where people can kind of subconsciously drift into a position without really realizing it. Kind of like Q Anon. Many people in my hometown firmly believe various parts of the Q Anon catalog of conspiracies, but if you asked them if they were Q Anon folks, most of them would say "what's Q Anon" or even "absolutely not." But an idea comes out of the Q sphere and makes the rounds of the internet until they hear it from a source they trust, so they believe it too. Kind of like money laundering for ideas, and it can happen in any context to anyone.

I see this kind of the same. I don't know of anyone who would say they disagree with the teachings of Jesus, but when presented with an idea in a more political context, they'll take whatever political stance they're "supposed" to have on that idea. Functionally they may end up with opinions that collectively amount to "Jesus's teachings are weak in today's world," even if they wouldn't agree with that statement directly.
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dermdoc
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In reply to schmendeler • 4:38p, 8/14/23
AG
schmendeler said:
That fact that illegal immigrant crime was brought up shows the talking points and attitude on the right are pervasive and accepted.
And the ones on the left are not?

C'mon man.
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Macarthur
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In reply to dermdoc • 4:41p, 8/14/23
Which talking points on the left are you referring to - treating people with human dignity...yeah, I fall for that one every time.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Macarthur • 4:48p, 8/14/23
AG
Macarthur said:
Which talking points on the left are you referring to - treating people with human dignity...yeah, I fall for that one every time.
Umm, the sea is going to rise ten feet in ten years if we do not address climate change.

May not be exact quote but that was pretty common rhetoric in the 90's and 2000s.

Trump colluded with Russia.

Republicans are going to put gays in concentration camps.

No federal tax dollars are spent on abortions.
Both sides have their talking points and to say differently is disingenuous in my opinion.

And I am for human dignity also. I think both sides have done a terrible job on immigration. But I will be willing to bet that most charities helping with the immigrants are Christian based.

Also, the world has not been 99.99% religious for some time.
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The Banned
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In reply to Macarthur • 5:14p, 8/14/23
Macarthur said:
Which talking points on the left are you referring to - treating people with human dignity...yeah, I fall for that one every time.


I would say, from both personal experience and experience of people close to me, that the fact that crime comes along with illegal immigration is a talking point is in fact itself a talking point. Ignoring that reality makes it difficult for the left to bridge the gap to the right. And the right not recognizing that they would be escaping the terrible places these people are coming from should they have been born there is prohibiting them from bridging to the left.
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Macarthur
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5:46p, 8/14/23
This seems timely. Of course, we seem to have zero interest in looking at the demand side of things.

https://thespectator.com/topic/bombing-mexican-cartels-bad-idea-2024-presidential-campaign/
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Dies Irae
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5:58p, 8/15/23
Jesus > Everything
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ChemEAg08
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In reply to schmendeler • 6:19p, 8/15/23
AG
schmendeler said:
That fact that illegal immigrant crime was brought up shows the talking points and attitude on the right are pervasive and accepted.


Oh you got me, if I want to be a better Christian I have to accept open borders.

Instead of working to fix our immigration laws via congress which our government was founded on then enforcing.

Sounds like the leftist talking points are out and obviously not going to f16 since they'd get crushed there.
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ChemEAg08
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In reply to Macarthur • 6:49p, 8/15/23
AG
Macarthur said:
Which talking points on the left are you referring to - treating people with human dignity...yeah, I fall for that one every time.


The "we have to let every human being into our country laws be damned and the government has to take care of them" talking points.

We can have compassion for the people coming here whether it is due to hardship in their country or for a better chance here. But that doesn't mean we have to let everyone in and then them mooch off our system without contributing.
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Macarthur
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In reply to ChemEAg08 • 6:52p, 8/15/23
No one here is advocating for this.
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Dies Irae
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7:01p, 8/15/23
Every care should be made to treat illegal immigrants humanely and with the dignity every person deserves. I do not like them being used as pawns to turn the tables on leftist cities and politicians through relocation, even though I understand the frustration.

The question is: how do you deter someone from entering the country while still being humane? There has to be a negative consequence or people will just continuously try to come back.
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Macarthur
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In reply to Dies Irae • 7:09p, 8/15/23
Agree and it's a very complicated issue that has no easy answers. The problem is that there are too many people in positions of power that have zero motivation to solve the problem, and even worse, some that I cynically think want to continue so they can continue to use as a blunt force object politically.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to Macarthur • 7:14p, 8/15/23
Macarthur said:
Agree and it's a very complicated issue that has no easy answers. The problem is that there are too many people in positions of power that have zero motivation to solve the problem, and even worse, some that I cynically think want to continue so they can continue to use as a blunt force object politically.


My idea would be total and complete asset forfeiture of illegal immigrants found in the USA. It is the only way I can think of disincentivizing people from coming here. If you are caught, you lose your furniture, your car, your jewelry, your tv, your electronics, everything, and are deported back to your home country.

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schmendeler
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In reply to ChemEAg08 • 8:13p, 8/15/23
AG
ChemEAg08 said:
schmendeler said:
That fact that illegal immigrant crime was brought up shows the talking points and attitude on the right are pervasive and accepted.


Oh you got me, if I want to be a better Christian I have to accept open borders.



Only if you think rejecting the idea of immigrants being a troublesome source of crime means that you necessarily want open borders.
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RAB91
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In reply to Macarthur • 6:45a, 8/16/23
Macarthur said:
Yeah, agreed. I can tell you anecdotally, I see the religious people in my circle have become much harder right politically in the last decade or so.
That happens when the left says that boys can become girls, that abortion should be legal up until birth, and the sitting president allows the FBI to spy on Catholic churches.
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kurt vonnegut
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7:51a, 8/16/23
AG
I want to make an observation that a post about how some evangelicals have come to value a political agenda above a religious agenda has sorta devolved into a political debate about which side's political agenda is better. I feel like there is some smart commentary here for someone smarter than me to expand on maybe.
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Frok
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8:17a, 8/16/23
AG
If you think only one side is getting more political then you are the one that has the political blinders on.
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The Banned
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 9:38p, 8/16/23
kurt vonnegut said:
I want to make an observation that a post about how some evangelicals have come to value a political agenda above a religious agenda has sorta devolved into a political debate about which side's political agenda is better. I feel like there is some smart commentary here for someone smarter than me to expand on maybe.


Which was spurred on by non-Christian posters telling Christian's that if we were really Christian we would have different political opinions. This thread couldn't go any other way than political
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dermdoc
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In reply to The Banned • 7:22a, 8/17/23
AG
The Banned said:
kurt vonnegut said:
I want to make an observation that a post about how some evangelicals have come to value a political agenda above a religious agenda has sorta devolved into a political debate about which side's political agenda is better. I feel like there is some smart commentary here for someone smarter than me to expand on maybe.


Which was spurred on by non-Christian posters telling Christian's that if we were really Christian we would have different political opinions. This thread couldn't go any other way than political
These threads always turn out this way. Non Christians seem to have a pre conceived idea of how Christians are supposed to think and act.

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schmendeler
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7:39a, 8/17/23
AG
Yes. We think Christians should follow Christ instead of Trump.
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dermdoc
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In reply to schmendeler • 8:11a, 8/17/23
AG
schmendeler said:
Yes. We think Christians should follow Christ instead of Trump.
Believe it or not, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Do you believe Christians can follow Christ and be conservative?
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schmendeler
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In reply to dermdoc • 8:20a, 8/17/23
AG
I said Trump, not conservative
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to The Banned • 8:21a, 8/17/23
AG
The Banned said:


Which was spurred on by non-Christian posters telling Christian's that if we were really Christian we would have different political opinions. This thread couldn't go any other way than political

I didn't point any fingers. I was hoping for a nudge back toward the topic in the OP instead of a pissing match between political factions on whose 'side' sucks less.
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dermdoc
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In reply to schmendeler • 8:23a, 8/17/23
AG
schmendeler said:
I said Trump, not conservative
So his policies are not conservative?

History has proven that liberalism trumps ethics. Clinton and Biden come to mind.

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