craigernaught said:

---

Quote:

---

do not post "gotcha" articles to try to impugn the majority of Biden voters are godless or whatever.

---

I'll gladly impugn the majority of Biden voters.

I certainly think that Trump has had a negative impact on conservative Christians. And I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that the most powerful political and cultural individual person in the world doesn't have an effect (and in this case an overtly negative one given who he is) on the people that comprise his political base. I honestly can't believe anyone would think otherwise.

But likewise, I think Biden, on the topic of immigrants and refugees, has had a much more negative impact on liberal Christians than Trump has had on conservative Christians. During the Trump years liberal Christians were all fire and brimstone ready to protest and boycott and organize over immigration and refugee issues. Among them were many of my clergy friends.

But Biden isn't much better than Trump on refugees and immigration. And now lots and lots of liberal Christians don't care. At all. Many of my friends were actively defending him during during the Afghan withdrawal fiasco.

We're still over here. We're still working. The camp my wife works in has 40k people. 60% are children! Many have never stepped foot out of the camp in their entire lives. Funding is rapidly declining as needs are growing. It's lonelier than ever. The last 2 years have been more disheartening than the previous four.

So often these debates just make me sad.

---

As I posted above, the op saddens me.

God bless y'all!

craigernaught said:

---

No worries doc. I was just trying to be light and funny which doesn't always come off great on internet forums. I hope you don't take it too seriously.

---

It did not come off that way. Apologies for misinterpreting.

AGC said:

---

craigernaught said:

---

No worries doc. I was just trying to be light and funny which doesn't always come off great on internet forums. I hope you don't take it too seriously.

---

It did not come off that way. Apologies for misinterpreting.

---

Well, I'm not very funny.

craigernaught said:

---

AGC said:

---

craigernaught said:

---

No worries doc. I was just trying to be light and funny which doesn't always come off great on internet forums. I hope you don't take it too seriously.

---

It did not come off that way. Apologies for misinterpreting.

---

Well, I'm not very funny.

---

Given your current situation, I imagine sometimes humor is all one has in life, and other times one can't afford it. Debates like this are far removed from how most people live. I'm sure it's work to thread the needle with our forum crew.

AGC said:

---

craigernaught said:

---

AGC said:

---

craigernaught said:

---

No worries doc. I was just trying to be light and funny which doesn't always come off great on internet forums. I hope you don't take it too seriously.

---

It did not come off that way. Apologies for misinterpreting.

---

Well, I'm not very funny.

---

Given your current situation, I imagine sometimes humor is all one has in life, and other times one can't afford it. Debates like this are far removed from how most people live. I'm sure it's work to thread the needle with our forum crew.

---

Amen.

AGC said:

---

He lit a match and tried to burn stuff down on his way out of the SBC while claiming he was booted for bringing accountability. Open letters, releasing secret recordings through underlings, repudiating big wins like Dobbs, and other theological drift that you probably don't care about. He's friends with Francis Collins and backed the left's shut everything down strategy during COVID.

---

this is my big complaint about Moore. There are several theological things i strongly agree with him on.

When he was brought in, i thought it was a good thing to remove the Republican's pull on the SBC, but he just basically was trying to get them to go the other way through subversive methods. It was pretty clear.

I, in no way, can endorse any candidate as a Christian unless I know their walk with Christ and can vouch for it. I can however, make a choice of the available options as to which i think is a better bet for the country.

Moore tried to pretend that saying a ton bad (and accurate) things about Trump (while ignoring the overt policy positions in direct opposition to his supposed agenda) wasn't pulling for the other guy, but it fell pretty flat and really turned me off.

Piper, Keller, and Chandler have all said things i disagree with politically on, but it was rooted in pointing people to Christ, not swaying public policy or elections and I can appreciate that.

Zobel said:

---

I think it's probably more clear if we identify it as the confluence of several different streams of American populism... in this case I'd replace "post-Christian" with the traditional folk religion of the US. The reason I think we need to make that separation is because that folk religion follows popular culture in the US rather than dictating it. When we view the arrangement in that order, this whole thread becomes really simple to understand.

As the popular folk religion of the US changes to follow the dominant culture it adapts to the culturally normative views of its day, whether that is slavery, gender roles, sexuality, or the role of government in society. It is nominally Christian, but it is more American than Christian, if that makes sense? As America becomes post-Christian, it will move toward something altogether different, but under the same name.

---

Zobel said:

---

I think it's probably more clear if we identify it as the confluence of several different streams of American populism... in this case I'd replace "post-Christian" with the traditional folk religion of the US. The reason I think we need to make that separation is because that folk religion follows popular culture in the US rather than dictating it. When we view the arrangement in that order, this whole thread becomes really simple to understand.

As the popular folk religion of the US changes to follow the dominant culture it adapts to the culturally normative views of its day, whether that is slavery, gender roles, sexuality, or the role of government in society. It is nominally Christian, but it is more American than Christian, if that makes sense? As America becomes post-Christian, it will move toward something altogether different, but under the same name.

---

Agree.

Zobel said:

---

I think it's probably more clear if we identify it as the confluence of several different streams of American populism... in this case I'd replace "post-Christian" with the traditional folk religion of the US. The reason I think we need to make that separation is because that folk religion follows popular culture in the US rather than dictating it. When we view the arrangement in that order, this whole thread becomes really simple to understand.

As the popular folk religion of the US changes to follow the dominant culture it adapts to the culturally normative views of its day, whether that is slavery, gender roles, sexuality, or the role of government in society. It is nominally Christian, but it is more American than Christian, if that makes sense? As America becomes post-Christian, it will move toward something altogether different, but under the same name.

---

Maybe, but the guys I mention aren't leading anyone to Christ. They're aiming for self-actualization and they may stumble upon Christianity but wouldn't call themselves Christians or follow it in a recognizable manner. I don't view the right as a cohesive block religiously even then because pop culture is diverging between male and female - Taylor swift and Barbie on one side, and the guys I mention on the other. There are big political splits in HS and college between sexes and it's not religion but I think it's feeding our politics.

AGC said:

---

I think trump is more emblematic of the post-Christian right. It's ugly, it's the neo-pagan manosphere, it takes no prisoners and goes to church occasionally without submitting to Christian authority or teaching. Tate, Rogan, Peterson, these are its prophets.

The right and Christianity were more aligned 30 years ago compared to the moment we're analyzing today. Some major issues overshadow the divide and mask that (abortion being one of them).

---

I generally agree.

Zobel said:

---

I think it's probably more clear if we identify it as the confluence of several different streams of American populism... in this case I'd replace "post-Christian" with the traditional folk religion of the US. The reason I think we need to make that separation is because that folk religion follows popular culture in the US rather than dictating it. When we view the arrangement in that order, this whole thread becomes really simple to understand.

As the popular folk religion of the US changes to follow the dominant culture it adapts to the culturally normative views of its day, whether that is slavery, gender roles, sexuality, or the role of government in society. It is nominally Christian, but it is more American than Christian, if that makes sense? As America becomes post-Christian, it will move toward something altogether different, but under the same name.

---

Agree. Reminds me a little of an old story I heard once. Goes something like this:

"There is no faithfulness, no love,
no acknowledgment of God in the land.
There is only cursing, lying and murder,
stealing and adultery;
they break all bounds,
and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
Because of this the land dries up,
and all who live in it waste away;
the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea are swept away."

Hosea 4:1(b) - 3

kurt vonnegut said:

---

AGC said:

---

Kurt there's an overarching idea here that trump changed Christianity and we've got some random polls showing political support for party nominees utilized as a proxy. There's anecdotes of family members (which all of us have for both sides). There's a guy who's theology has become more political being interviewed in an article as proof (not kidding, his new book talks about what he used to think).

At the end of all these loose threads there is a desire to tie everything together to trump. Malibu offers a plea that we just admit trump changed some small portion of Christians.

These things are offered but our responses, as engaged, connected, passionate Christians saying it hasn't, doesn't seem to carry much weight (compared to anecdote). Go look at the number of blue stars in this thread and which 'side' is getting them and it's clear.

Edit: craigernaught's post is a good example of the blue stars flying in, despite derm not doing anything of those things I said in the first paragraph.

---

I think there is an overarching idea here that conservative politics and Christianity have become interwoven in the last decade a way that might not be healthy for Christianity. And I think a lot of Christians here have taken this as an attack rather than as an observation or topic for discussion.

I've also only been like 80% paying attention to this thread, so maybe there was a post or two in there that I missed that was more inflammatory than I realize.

---

I think calling it a crisis is a massive overreach from a certain group of people searching for something to look down on two subsets of the population (that overlap in some degree) that they enjoy looking down upon. That the original claim comes from someone with extremely hypocritical and overtly political stances doesn't help matters.

I think there is a discussion that could be had but the sensationalism makes me believe that no one pushing it is interested in discussing this in good faith.