If saved…always saved.

Don't know why that is so hard for you to say, if that is what you believe. You point to scripture, here are some to ponder.

Matt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

C, as you call it, would seem to breed apathy in following Jesus's command to go ye therefore. And rightly so, for a C.

No argument here. There is a general call for all to obey the Gospel. There is a special call as well that is effectual.

Where is that?

Ephesians 1 and 2
Romans 8
Romans 9
1 Corinthians 1
John 6
Just off the top of my head

Those say there is a " general call" that is apparently a useless call since it can't be acted upon, and there is an "effective call" that can't be acted upon either since it has already happened to a person against their will?

Agilaw said:

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Those say there is a " general call" that is apparently a useless call since it can't be acted upon, and there is an "effective call" that can't be acted upon either since it has already happened to a person against their will?

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We can't pull out everyone's shirt tails to see if they are numbered among the elect or not. So we preach to everyone to the glory of God alone.

dermdoc said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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When one becomes "born again", they do not lose their free will. Their conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be genuine in their youth but still be rejected later in life.

If at the end of a person's life on earth, they have freely chosen to be separated from God, then that is where they will spend eternity regardless of how many salvation prayers they have prayed.


ETA: by "rejected", I am referring to the individual rejecting their own previous conversion. Just as we have the freedom to embrace Jesus, we also still have the freedom to later reject him.

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Agree. But that is not possible with double predestination. I guess it does absolve parents of their child's faith walk and eternal destination.
They can not make their child elect.

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I don't follow you.

I don't see how being able to "change your mind" about salvation is "double predestination". As for parents' "absolution" of their child's faith walk and eternal destination, a parent can do everything "right" and still lose their child to the world.

No, a parent cannot guarantee their child's choice regarding their eternal salvation.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "double predestination".

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Double predestination means God irrevocably chooses the elect and pre ordains that the other folks are damned to hell.

Check out Calvin's institute #21

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nope. Don't buy it and I don't see how my assertion that one does not lose their free will after "accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" would only be possible with double predestination.

I believe God knows what we will choose, because he is outside of time and space. I do not believe that this has any impact on our free will. He may know who is "saved" and who is not, but that is only because we are living the movie he has already seen.

Never heard this reason before, and it makes absolutely no sense.You share the gospel so that the pre-elect, who somehow didn't know they were the pre-elect, comprehend that they are the elect? For a C, you don't need to preach anything or share the gospel. People are already either "in" or "out" from birth. It would actually seem that a C spending time and $ to share a gospel that can't be accepted (it's already determined) is a waste of time and $.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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When one becomes "born again", they do not lose their free will. Their conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be genuine in their youth but still be rejected later in life.

If at the end of a person's life on earth, they have freely chosen to be separated from God, then that is where they will spend eternity regardless of how many salvation prayers they have prayed.


ETA: by "rejected", I am referring to the individual rejecting their own previous conversion. Just as we have the freedom to embrace Jesus, we also still have the freedom to later reject him.

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Agree. But that is not possible with double predestination. I guess it does absolve parents of their child's faith walk and eternal destination.
They can not make their child elect.

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I don't follow you.

I don't see how being able to "change your mind" about salvation is "double predestination". As for parents' "absolution" of their child's faith walk and eternal destination, a parent can do everything "right" and still lose their child to the world.

No, a parent cannot guarantee their child's choice regarding their eternal salvation.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "double predestination".

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Double predestination means God irrevocably chooses the elect and pre ordains that the other folks are damned to hell.

Check out Calvin's institute #21

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nope. Don't buy it and I don't see how my assertion that one does not lose their free will after "accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" would only be possible with double predestination.

I believe God knows what we will choose, because he is outside of time and space. I do not believe that this has any impact on our free will. He may know who is "saved" and who is not, but that is only because we are living the movie he has already seen.

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I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not an advocate of double predestination and am a believer in free will.

How do you reconcile verses like 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 both of which say God desires all men to be saved?

My interpretation means that God has an open invitation for salvation to all people but some will refuse. He loves us so much that He will not force Himself on anyone.

Which also goes along with the verse I posted earlier, Revelation 3:20. Jesus stands at the door and knocks and anyone who opens the door will eat with Him.

I interpret that to mean that we have to respond and accept.

And I am not meaning to be harsh as we are brothers in Christ. I explored Calvinism extensively and did not think it fit with the entirety of the Bible and church tradition.

Doc - how do you feel about the deposition of Saul (when Samuel confronts him in 1 Sam 15)? Not a trick question - just curious about how you would interpret that event with respect to God's character and/or sovereignty.

Not to speak for Doc - but something for you to look into on this question. 400 years before the order to destroy the Amalekites, they committed a terrible sin against Israel - God's people. The Amalekites had 400 years to repent of this. See Exodus 17:14-16 and Deuteronomy 25:17-19.

Wakesurfer817 said:

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Doc - how do you feel about the deposition of Saul (when Samuel confronts him in 1 Sam 15)? Not a trick question - just curious about how you would interpret that event with respect to God's character and/or sovereignty.

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First if all, Saul disobeyed God which shows free will.

Secondly as agilaw states the Amalekites were basically the OT equivalent of ISIS.

Thirdly, I do not think it is a question of God's sovereignty. God is sovereign.

It is a question of God's character which He revealed through Christ.

Again, I think you have to look at the message of the Bible as a whole.

I did a little research and it is fascinating that basically Augustine was the first to hint at the theology of double pre destination and Calvin doubled down on it.

Why did it take all those years to develop new theology?

And I find that a lot of my Calvinist friends almost worship Calvinism theology more than anything else.

And just to clarify, there are Calvinist verses in the Bible. I get it.

I came to the conclusion after a lot of reading that TULIP did not fit if you view the Bible as a whole.

And Calvinists are my Christian brothers who are saved.

But I almost feel like some try to convert other Christian's to Calvinism which seems strange.

I feel amused anytime someone tries to convince me that I don't have free will. If I have free will, then it's just wrong. If I don't have free will, then my belief in free will isn't my choice. So trying to convince me to stop believing in free will is pointless, especially if they are correct.

I will state this. I don't trust in my free will. I trust in the finished work of the cross.

Galatians 5:16-18 (ESV)

16 "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

dermdoc said:

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Wakesurfer817 said:

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Doc - how do you feel about the deposition of Saul (when Samuel confronts him in 1 Sam 15)? Not a trick question - just curious about how you would interpret that event with respect to God's character and/or sovereignty.

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First if all, Saul disobeyed God which shows free will.

Secondly as agilaw states the Amalekites were basically the OT equivalent of ISIS.

Thirdly, I do not think it is a question of God's sovereignty. God is sovereign.

It is a question of God's character which He revealed through Christ.

Again, I think you have to look at the message of the Bible as a whole.

I did a little research and it is fascinating that basically Augustine was the first to hint at the theology of double pre destination and Calvin doubled down on it.

Why did it take all those years to develop new theology?

And I find that a lot of my Calvinist friends almost worship Calvinism theology more than anything else.

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First - for the record - this is just a fun discussion - we're all on the same team, of that I have no doubt. And I agree - idols are idols, even if they're couched in fancy theological terms (like Calvinism).

I should've been more specific in my query. I ask about this passage specifically around the idea that double predestination would make God a monster. To that end - let's look at one specific piece:

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

Yes - the Amalekites were a thorn in Israel's side, to put it mildly. Yes, the blessing to the entire world had to be preserved. Yes, we can equate Amalekites to the sin in our life which we need to treat with deadly seriousness. But it still says what it says. It's a direct order from God. So serious an order in fact that Saul get deposed for not following it to the letter.

Said another way - if you want to make a monster out of God, you don't need double predestination to do it. And - if God can and did use the Amalekites for good, I would argue that he can use predestination - in whatever flavor - in the same way.

Fair enough.

But the Amalakites had free will and chose to be horrible, correct? They were not pre ordained by to destruction God like double pre destination states.

And of course no mention of hell which was interestingly unknown through Jewish history..

Seems like apples and oranges.

And I agree this is a fun discussion and we are all brothers/sisters in Christ.

Free will can become an idol also.

The Banned said:

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Can you expand on loss of future reward in Heaven? Is that the loss of heaven? Or we'll have less rewards but we're still making it to heaven?

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This language comes from the book of 1 Corinthians which is written to believers who will be in heaven. These believers were struggling with all sorts of sin issues which Paul addressed.

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Interpretation: Suffering loss applies to reward and not the person's salvation.


All - If I am saved by my righteous deeds or my perseverance, then salvation is not a free gift and I cannot ever know that I'm a Christian and am saved which contradicts this passage of scripture:


God's judgement: Heaven or Hell - Have you received God's free offer of forgiveness found in Jesus or are you trusting in your religious dedication, perseverance, which equates to self righteousness?

The Judgment Seat

Romans 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Note: These 2 books are written to believers. Paul includes himself with the audience. This judgment has nothing to do with heaven or hell but how we lived our lives.


If a person is saved, they are always saved BECAUSE of the promise and power of God to be faithful to His words.

The nature of salvation as I see it...

• God's desire is that no one perish but that all come to enter into a relationship with Him.
• God chooses people to be saved.
• People must believe in Him in order to be saved. (Not just believe that God exists but faith in Jesus specifically and His work and resurrection for our sins 1 Cor. 15:1-4 arguably the clearest presentation of the gospel in the NT)

Once a person is saved the following things are true about them...

• they are adopted into God's family
• they are given the gift of eternal life
• they are given the gift of the holy spirit
• they still have free will
• they will still sin - sometimes dying in their sins
• they can still shame God, reject Christ (see the book of Hebrews in which believers where going back to the animal sacrificial system after fear of persecution)
• God does not revoke His promises to them.

Like any human relationship a person can be mad and angry at God and do all sorts of things that He disapproves. This does not mean God revokes His promise of eternal life to those who have received it. There's no other love this good or unconditional that exists apart from the uniqueness of God.

I think the doctrine of Eternal Security is one of the most God honoring, God glorifying doctrine in all of the scriptures because of it's all about Him and His faithfulness, not ours.

TheGreatEscape said:

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2 Corinthians 1:22 (ESV)

22 "and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

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I think the term 'faith' is being used often in this thread as 'belief' and not as an encompassing term meaning that our faith is expressed through our obedience to Gods Word. We cannot persevere without the Holy Spirit helping us and thought it may not be likely if our faith is strong, but it is possible to turn away and be disobedient.

OSAS shouldn't be seen as a one and done thing, otherwise Christ wouldn't have told us the importance of persevering. If our faith is persevering, we are being saved. If we persevered for a while but somehow turned to focus only on the things of this world with unrepentence....I don't believe you can say we never had true salvific faith but rather our faith was not persevering.

BluHorseShu said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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2 Corinthians 1:22 (ESV)

22 "and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

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I think the term 'faith' is being used often in this thread as 'belief' and not as an encompassing term meaning that our faith is expressed through our obedience to Gods Word. We cannot persevere without the Holy Spirit helping us and thought it may not be likely if our faith is strong, but it is possible to turn away and be disobedient.

OSAS shouldn't be seen as a one and done thing, otherwise Christ wouldn't have told us the importance of persevering. If our faith is persevering, we are being saved. If we persevered for a while but somehow turned to focus only on the things of this world with unrepentence....I don't believe you can say we never had true salvific faith but rather our faith was not persevering.

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I think OSAS should be seen as complete, absolutely true, and taught without fear or hesitation. I see more people persevere in their faithfulness to the Lord when they understand their new identity and that His favor is freely given vs trying to earn it.

OSAS is a one and done thing that occurs at the moment of faith in Jesus, but you are right in that it is the starting point of the Christian life.

I absolutely love the progression in the book of Romans. If you were to do an outline you would see the following points.

Intro and possible summary
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith (justification-free gift-eternal life) to faith (a lifestyle of faith); as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

• man without God
• the gospel
• the results of justification and eternal security
• the believers struggle with sin
• the work of the Spirit and more eternal security
• God's choice defended
• a lifestyle of faithfulness.

The doctrine of OSAS is not an excuse to not persevere but gut check to the heart and mind for the motive of perseverance.

Quote:

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OSAS is a one and done thing that occurs at the moment of faith in Jesus

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Strongly disagree. That's sort of the whole point of the parable of the sower. Only those that take goodness, internalize it, and produce good works until the end are saved. So no one's salvation is assured until they are dead. Thus the high value placed on martyrs by Christianity. Dying for your faith is as good a guarantee about someone's salvation status as you are ever going to get.

Since this is basically a predestination thread, I wanted to bring up a question/conundrum that I've thought about on and off for years.

0) God has certain unalterable attributes.
1) God is love
2) Perfect love cannot be forced upon another
3) Free will must exist to receive perfect love
4) Likewise, free will must exist to accept salvation (which is perfect love expressed through the Blood etc. )

5) God has perfect knowledge (omniscient)
6) God exists beyond time because he created it
7) God exists in all time simultaneously and experiences all time simultaneously
8) Therefore God has all knowledge of eternity before creation
9) If God has knowledge of all eternity before creation, he knows the eternal fate of each individual (as chosen through free will)
10) This means that God created people he knew would not choose to accept salvation

This logical progression of attributes of God lead to two seemingly disparate outcomes: free will and predestination. Any input or discussion would be appreciated.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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OSAS is a one and done thing that occurs at the moment of faith in Jesus

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Strongly disagree. That's sort of the whole point of the parable of the sower. Only those that take goodness, internalize it, and produce good works until the end are saved. So no one's salvation is assured until they are dead. Thus the high value placed on martyrs by Christianity. Dying for your faith is as good a guarantee about someone's salvation status as you are ever going to get.

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God is the gardener and prepares the soil.

Grimey said:

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Since this is basically a predestination thread, I wanted to bring up a question/conundrum that I've thought about on and off for years.

0) God has certain unalterable attributes.
1) God is love
2) Perfect love cannot be forced upon another
3) Free will must exist to receive perfect love
4) Likewise, free will must exist to accept salvation (which is perfect love expressed through the Blood etc. )

5) God has perfect knowledge (omniscient)
6) God exists beyond time because he created it
7) God exists in all time simultaneously and experiences all time simultaneously
8) Therefore God has all knowledge of eternity before creation
9) If God has knowledge of all eternity before creation, he knows the eternal fate of each individual (as chosen through free will)
10) This means that God created people he knew would not choose to accept salvation

This logical progression of attributes of God lead to two seemingly disparate outcomes: free will and predestination. Any input or discussion would be appreciated.

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I believe those are always in tension and problems occur when someone tries to be too dogmatic one way or another.

Jeremiah 31:3 (ESV)

"the Lord appeared to him[a] from far away.
I have loved you with an everlasting love;
therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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OSAS is a one and done thing that occurs at the moment of faith in Jesus

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Strongly disagree. That's sort of the whole point of the parable of the sower. Only those that take goodness, internalize it, and produce good works until the end are saved. So no one's salvation is assured until they are dead. Thus the high value placed on martyrs by Christianity. Dying for your faith is as good a guarantee about someone's salvation status as you are ever going to get.

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Interesting. So it seems like it's all up to us? I need to take goodness (what does this mean exactly?), I need to internalize it, and I need to produce good works or else. Forgive me - but this sounds hard and scary. Impossible even.

I always liked this from Jesus:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

How would you incorporate his statement into yours?

By recognizing that everyone is given sufficient grace for salvation, and sufficient opportunities for repentance.

Zobel said:

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By recognizing that everyone is given sufficient grace for salvation, and sufficient opportunities for repentance.

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What do you think prompts "OSAS" believing Protestants to repent and do good works? Why would they? Have a look at this from Catholic Answers:

"When the collection basket comes around, Catholics give half of what Evangelical Protestants give and less than half of what mainline Protestants give. According to a study by the Presbyterian Church (USA), the average Catholic gives $727 annually, the average Evangelical $1,448, and the average mainline Protestant $1,627.

Why the disparity? Some people immediately say it's because so many Catholics are poor, and that pulls down the average. Actually, in the U.S., the average Catholic is wealthier than the average Protestant, when all Protestants are lumped together, so an appeal to relative poverty doesn't work."

Reformed Protestants are firmly in "Perseverance of the Saints" territory after all. If we're in "His Grip" - why bother to sacrifice? Jesus said "For where your treasure is there will your heart be also".

My point here is not to brag - rather it's to say that empirically, something must be going on to inspire "OSAS" believers to do good works. What do you think it is?

Zobel said:

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Honestly? I think there's a disconnect between what people say is their theology and what they actually believe.

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LOL. That's outstanding. Made my day.

Glad you're around here Zobel.

Zobel said:

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Honestly? I think there's a disconnect between what people say is their theology and what they actually believe.

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Amen. And most of the time that is a good thing.