If saved…always saved

22,224 Views | 416 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by TheGreatEscape
TheGreatEscape
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Philippians 1:6 (ESV)

6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Romans 8:38-39 (ESV)

38 "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Hebrews 12:2 (ESV)

2 "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."



The Banned
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To clarify, which of these do you believe:

1. A devout Christian falls away and goes to their death bed an unbeliever will go to heaven anyway because they were saved once

2. A devout Christian falls away and goes to their death bed an unbeliever will go to hell because they were never really a believer to begin with and their faith was inauthentic.
TheGreatEscape
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Probably #2

Being self-deceived is possible…

I'm writing to believers who know that they know that they know.
The Banned
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I can understand that. Is there anything one can have/do to have confidence they aren't self-deluded and are truly saved?

For example, there are people here today that would absolutely say that "they knew that they knew that they knew" and no longer believe that.
TheGreatEscape
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The Banned said:

I can understand that. Is there anything one can have/do to have confidence they aren't self-deluded and are truly saved?

For example, there are people here today that would absolutely say that "they knew that they knew that they knew" and no longer believe that.


For the believer, God will send a whale like
He did with Jonah. Or the Christian could end up in a pigsty like the Prodigal Son.

Hebrews 12:6 (ESV)

"For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

I can understand that. Is there anything one can have/do to have confidence they aren't self-deluded and are truly saved?
Rom. 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

If you are living according to the flesh, you are self-deluded.
sodycracker
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AG
If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you will spend eternity in heaven.
1) If you could lose your salvation, everyone would lose their salvation daily as we all sin daily.
2) If you could lose your salvation after being saved, then salvation wouldn't be eternal, it would be temporary.
TheGreatEscape
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Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

I can understand that. Is there anything one can have/do to have confidence they aren't self-deluded and are truly saved?
Rom. 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

If you are living according to the flesh, you are self-deluded.


No doubt. But the next verse states:

14 "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

And
The following in Romans 8:15:

15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

For we aren't living in the flesh as a result of salvation.

Romans 8:9

9 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. "



PabloSerna
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AG
Philippians 2:12-13 ESV

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

sodycracker
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AG
1 Corinthians 5:5

A man was having sexual relations with his mother or step mother (about as low as you can go) and was given up to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved.

That should answer any questions about eternal security
TheGreatEscape
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Yes folks. The wheat grows with the tares.

The corporate aspect of the covenant …Matthew 13:24-30 (KJV)

"24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
TheGreatEscape
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Also…here is also the corporate aspect of the covenant:
1 Corinthians 10 (ESV)

10 "For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play." 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry."
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

Philippians 2:12-13 ESV

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.




This is another good one. The elect, who fear God, will follow and do likewise. The rest will go about blaspheming and living in idolatry or living in the flesh.
TheGreatEscape
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Ephesians 1:13-14 (ESV)

13 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[a] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

John 10:27-29 (ESV)

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

God is your father!

The Banned
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TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

I can understand that. Is there anything one can have/do to have confidence they aren't self-deluded and are truly saved?

For example, there are people here today that would absolutely say that "they knew that they knew that they knew" and no longer believe that.


For the believer, God will send a whale like
He did with Jonah. Or the Christian could end up in a pigsty like the Prodigal Son.

Hebrews 12:6 (ESV)

"For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."



Are you a Calvinist?
TheGreatEscape
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sodycracker said:

1 Corinthians 5:5

A man was having sexual relations with his mother or step mother (about as low as you can go) and was given up to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved.

That should answer any questions about eternal security


The wheat grows with the tares.
PabloSerna
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AG
Where are the words "always saved" in the bible again?
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

Where are the words "always saved" in the bible again?


It's implied by the texts that I posted.

But if your faith is in your faith or free will and not in the Son of God , then that is not the best formula for persevering faith.
PabloSerna
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AG
Are you saying this is your interpretation of those texts or someone else? Just curious how you arrived to this understanding.
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

Are you saying this is your interpretation of those texts or someone else? Just curious how you arrived to this understanding.


Well, since only Rome can interpret the Bible…then I must be sola ecclesia, right?
PabloSerna
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AG
Not sure what you are getting at, but I am fascinated at the multitude of interpretations for the same scriptural passage.

My favorite is, " I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you." - JN 6:53
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

Not sure what you are getting at, but I am fascinated at the multitude of interpretations for the same scriptural passage.

My favorite is, " I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you." - JN 6:53


Jesus also says that he is the door in John 10:9. That's clearly metaphor not far away from John chapter 6.

Now…regarding the sacraments and the Lord's Table, I believe God both condescends to us and we are caught up
in the Godhead when we partake of the feast.

The bread and wine are the Gospel tasted, touched, heard( through chewing), and seen.
TheGreatEscape
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The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

I can understand that. Is there anything one can have/do to have confidence they aren't self-deluded and are truly saved?

For example, there are people here today that would absolutely say that "they knew that they knew that they knew" and no longer believe that.


For the believer, God will send a whale like
He did with Jonah. Or the Christian could end up in a pigsty like the Prodigal Son.

Hebrews 12:6 (ESV)

"For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."



Are you a Calvinist?


I'm a Biblicist as much as possible. Okay. Yes.
PabloSerna
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AG
"Einstein was fascinated by the Catholic Church's teaching on the Blessed Sacrament. He was intrigued by the idea of a substance that you can't see; a substance that has no shape or size or color. In 1952, Fr. Charles McTague visited Einstein to talk with him about the Catholic doctrine of the Holy Eucharist.

Father Charles explained that during Mass heaven and earth are joined by the infinite living body of Christ, when the whole substance of bread and wine becomes the true body and blood of Christ; only the appearances of the bread and wine remaining. Einstein became extremely interested in the concept of transubstantiation, the changing of one substance into another. He asked Father Charles to explain the conversion that occurs in the Eucharist at Mass. Father Charles shared that transubstantiation is analogous to Einstein's general relativity formula E=MC2: Just as matter can be broken into energy, God becomes present on earth in the Mass. Father Charles continued, during the Last Supper Christ said to his disciples, "This is my body, this is my blood, that is being shed for you.'" This means that what looks like bread and wine by God's power have become the body and blood of Christ. Einstein responded with "Then this means that Christ is infinite and timeless." At the end of their conversation, Einstein asked Fr. Charles to send him some books in German about the Holy Eucharist."


+++

Metaphor huh?

TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

"Einstein was fascinated by the Catholic Church's teaching on the Blessed Sacrament. He was intrigued by the idea of a substance that you can't see; a substance that has no shape or size or color. In 1952, Fr. Charles McTague visited Einstein to talk with him about the Catholic doctrine of the Holy Eucharist.

Father Charles explained that during Mass heaven and earth are joined by the infinite living body of Christ, when the whole substance of bread and wine becomes the true body and blood of Christ; only the appearances of the bread and wine remaining. Einstein became extremely interested in the concept of transubstantiation, the changing of one substance into another. He asked Father Charles to explain the conversion that occurs in the Eucharist at Mass. Father Charles shared that transubstantiation is analogous to Einstein's general relativity formula E=MC2: Just as matter can be broken into energy, God becomes present on earth in the Mass. Father Charles continued, during the Last Supper Christ said to his disciples, "This is my body, this is my blood, that is being shed for you.'" This means that what looks like bread and wine by God's power have become the body and blood of Christ. Einstein responded with "Then this means that Christ is infinite and timeless." At the end of their conversation, Einstein asked Fr. Charles to send him some books in German about the Holy Eucharist."


+++

Metaphor huh?




More than a metaphor. We know this because of some falling sick in Paul's letter to the Corinthians chapter 11 for taking it without proper discipline.

But my faith is also in the Word of God and the word of God is equal to the Lord's Table.
The Banned
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TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

I can understand that. Is there anything one can have/do to have confidence they aren't self-deluded and are truly saved?

For example, there are people here today that would absolutely say that "they knew that they knew that they knew" and no longer believe that.


For the believer, God will send a whale like
He did with Jonah. Or the Christian could end up in a pigsty like the Prodigal Son.

Hebrews 12:6 (ESV)

"For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."



Are you a Calvinist?


I'm a Biblicist as much as possible. Okay. Yes.


Calvinism has a couple massive issue for me and I can not agree with it. I'm Not sure if you're wanting to get into a debate on these things or not, so I'll leave it there unless you want to go further. I don't want to dump all over your thread.
CrackerJackAg
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AG
I'll keep my opinion to my self as this is a conversation for the Protestants. Only you guys do the "saved" thing.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Ezekiel 21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 "Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Different covenant but the ways of God don't change. If a man can be considered righteous at his last possible moment, then he can be considered unrighteous at his last possible moment. According to God, this works both ways.

It's a bit trickier than that, but that's the gist. There's a lot of talk in the NT about being saved forever, and the whole thing is a contradictory mess that anyone can prooftext to their heart's content. The only way any of it becomes consistent is by moving the moment of salvation to the moment of death. Once you do that, all of the contradictions melt away.

Of course, the writings of Paul can be confusing about this as well. He speaks of salvation as a present and future state of being. But he's speaking metaphorically. Christians have died and been reborn (baptism). We are sustained by the body of Christ (the bread of the Eucharist), we readily accept the suffering of this earthly existence (the wine of the Eucharist), and we bear our Cross. To Paul, a good Christian has already left the earthly life behind in every way but one. We are literally the walking dead, just waiting for these bodies to perish so we can gain our new ones. That's all symbolic and metaphoric speech, however. We aren't dead until we are actually dead, and until we die we have free will and can reject God, goodness, and righteousness. We can turn away, sin, hate God and blaspheme to our heart's content, and God owes us nothing.
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dermdoc
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AG
TheGreatEscape said:

Philippians 1:6 (ESV)

6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Romans 8:38-39 (ESV)

38 "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Hebrews 12:2 (ESV)

2 "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."




Just curious, what are your thoughts on double predestination?

If there is no free will, then is it once damned, always damned?

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Klaus Schwab
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TheGreatEscape said:

PabloSerna said:

Are you saying this is your interpretation of those texts or someone else? Just curious how you arrived to this understanding.


Well, since only Rome can interpret the Bible…then I must be sola ecclesia, right?
I'm not Catholic but your position of interpretation of scripture is no different. You have no normative authority as you're just an individual Pope.

Watch this discussion as Jay Dyer (Orthodox) tries to walk Dale the Protestant through this exact issue. Dale's only point is that Christians throughout time had some type of mechanism to interpret the truth (also completely avoiding who and how the canon of scripture came to be). The issue that comes up every time is that there is no historical proof of these people. Protestants can only claim so sort of vague gnostic story of "real" Christians throughout time that held the true belief. Until you realize this concept you will be stuck in your echo chamber. Harsh but true.

https://www.youtube.com/live/j5qCMheSxpM?si=tl-kT6tQ0sQEqVpi
dermdoc
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AG
ramblin_ag02 said:

Ezekiel 21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 "Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Different covenant but the ways of God don't change. If a man can be considered righteous at his last possible moment, then he can be considered unrighteous at his last possible moment. According to God, this works both ways.

It's a bit trickier than that, but that's the gist. There's a lot of talk in the NT about being saved forever, and the whole thing is a contradictory mess that anyone can prooftext to their heart's content. The only way any of it becomes consistent is by moving the moment of salvation to the moment of death. Once you do that, all of the contradictions melt away.

Of course, the writings of Paul can be confusing about this as well. He speaks of salvation as a present and future state of being. But he's speaking metaphorically. Christians have died and been reborn (baptism). We are sustained by the body of Christ (the bread of the Eucharist), we readily accept the suffering of this earthly existence (the wine of the Eucharist), and we bear our Cross. To Paul, a good Christian has already left the earthly life behind in every way but one. We are literally the walking dead, just waiting for these bodies to perish so we can gain our new ones. That's all symbolic and metaphoric speech, however. We aren't dead until we are actually dead, and until we die we have free will and can reject God, goodness, and righteousness. We can turn away, sin, hate God and blaspheme to our heart's content, and God owes us nothing.
Agree. I do think we are assured of salvation before death as long as we persevere in the faith.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Klaus Schwab
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Just listen at 2:31:50. Jay's response is very precise in pointing out that the Protestant can only refer to scripture and has no justification in explaining what scripture is and how it came to be. Most Protestants take this route except the ones who are leaning on Orthodoxy for specific situations like the canon. The issue is that they deny everything else about the Church.
DirtDiver
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Why do we need a Salvation?

  • Our sin(s) separates us from a relationship with God. We are enemies.

What did God do to save us?

  • placed all of our sins to the body of His only eternal Son.

How is this salvation applied to our account?

  • Freely the moment we believe that His sacrifice was for us and that He rose from the dead. (We do not trust in our obedience, religious commitments, or perseverance, we trust in Him)

What happens at the moment of salvation?

  • We are declared righteous in His eyes (not physically made righteous)
  • We are saved from the penalty of sin (hell and eternal separation from God)
  • We receive the Spirit as pledge of our future inheritance.
  • We are no longer enemies of God but family members.

What happens after conversion?

  • We still commit sin which can grieve the Spirit, separate us from fellowship (not relationship) with God and others, and have negative consequence in our lives
  • While imperfect, we can still have a positive impact by loving others and introducing them to God.
  • Our flesh will wrestle with His Spirit until our death and a future date when He gives us a new nature.

What are the consequences for living in sin as a believer?

  • broken fellowship with God on earth
  • broken fellowship with others on earth
  • the natural consequences built into this cause and effect world
  • loss of future reward in Heaven

Why do people have a problem with eternal security?

  • Pride - they are not honest with their own proclivity to be a slave to sin.
  • Pride - they have a hard time with the idea of Grace and want to earn to help earn their salvation.
  • They don't understand that the doctrine of eternal security is one of the most God honor doctrines in all of Scripture as it's all about Him.
  • They do not understand what all happens at the moment God saves a person and how complete that is.
  • They are exhausted seeing believing family members and friends walk away from the faith or walk in sin and add what they believe is a safeguard of abusing grace.

Challenge: Are we offering Jesus freely to people or are we adding human effort to the finished work of Christ?

The Grace of God that can be abused by us is the same Grace that has the power to save and transform humanity.
The Banned
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Can you expand on loss of future reward in Heaven? Is that the loss of heaven? Or we'll have less rewards but we're still making it to heaven?
TheGreatEscape
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All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
 
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