If saved…always saved

22,228 Views | 416 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by TheGreatEscape
TheGreatEscape
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Wakesurfer817 said:

Zobel said:

It's actually not St Paul's either… it was the Word, as told told the Prophet Jeremiah.

We don't circumscribe His will. He chooses to give us freedom.

Good works come from Christ, when we do them we are animated by His Spirit, and we are His Body; He can look on our works as good because they ARE good, because they are His.

At any rate, a God who judges people who have no free will is a strange image. He is literally judging His own action. Note this view also ascribes sin to God, or at least it seems to.

This ties to judgment because in the end, being justified and made righteous happens through good works. When we allow God to work in and through and with us, we become more like Him. It changes us. And we are judged by what we have done, which is identified with who we are and what we have become.
Touch on Jeremiah. Walked into that one. Old and slow. Back in the day I'd have seen that one coming.

I would argue that being justified and made righteous happens only because of our faith in Christ. Our works become good - in God's eyes - only because of our faith in Him. His righteousness is imputed to us. How else could we be "new creations"? The Holy Spirit therefore gets the credit for my good works.

But let's talk empirically - our personal experience with sin and blessing. When you've overcome a particularly pernicious sin in your life, or experienced an amazing blessing - how much do you really think you had to do with it? In my experience, those things happen almost in spite of me. I'm surprised that I find myself being more generous, or not screaming at the guy who cut me off, or wanting to spend more time in prayer. In short, my sanctification happens if not against my will - certainly by dragging it kicking and screaming.

I see these things as evidence (I hope) of the Holy Spirit working in my life. That just makes more sense to me empirically. Way more than the idea of righteousness being actually imparted to me. I am more - totally really - a drag than thrust in the equation I guess.


Amen!
The Banned
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TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.


I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.


The wheat grow with the tares. So lest we self-deceive ourselves, we must persevere in the faith. Obedience is what the Gospel does.


Obedience is what the gospel does? The gospel makes us obedient or we choose to be obedient to the gospel? We persevere in the faith, or faith makes us persevere and we can not wander?

I'm glad you're engaging in this. It's a very important theological point that forms what we do next.


It's a relationship. God is my father and I don't put
the Father to the test because I love Him because He first
loved me.


I don't mean to be inflammatory, but you dodged the question. It's ok to admit we have a role (however tiny) in our salvation. Not because we can attain salvation in any way. Nothing we can do makes us worthy. But we do need to say yes to faith in Jesus. That is a "work" of a sort. Never mind we must continue to say yes.

If you do Not believe it was our choice to say yes, then it means we have no choice to say no. This means God made certain persons with absolutely zero chance of redemption, which means He intentionally created people for the purpose of burning in Hell. Double predestination.
TheGreatEscape
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The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.


I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.


The wheat grow with the tares. So lest we self-deceive ourselves, we must persevere in the faith. Obedience is what the Gospel does.


Obedience is what the gospel does? The gospel makes us obedient or we choose to be obedient to the gospel? We persevere in the faith, or faith makes us persevere and we can not wander?

I'm glad you're engaging in this. It's a very important theological point that forms what we do next.


It's a relationship. God is my father and I don't put
the Father to the test because I love Him because He first
loved me.


I don't mean to be inflammatory, but you dodged the question. It's ok to admit we have a role (however tiny) in our salvation. Not because we can attain salvation in any way. Nothing we can do makes us worthy. But we do need to say yes to faith in Jesus. That is a "work" of a sort. Never mind we must continue to say yes.

If you do Not believe it was our choice to say yes, then it means we have no choice to say no. This means God made certain persons with absolutely zero chance of redemption, which means He intentionally created people for the purpose of burning in Hell. Double predestination.


I don't play any role in the power of adoption from
the Father alone. Now that i have been regenerated, I do have a say and now He keeps me. It's a relationship that Christ started and said "It is finished."
TheGreatEscape
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1 John 4:10 (ESV)

"In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
dermdoc
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AG
The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

The Banned said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Well, we disagree on the topic. That's been very clear.


I would advise you to pray around my original 1/2 question. Truly ask if someone can fall away of their OWN accord. If you don't think a person is capable of accepting faith and recanting, you'll be safe. But if you have any experience with someone who has truly wrestled with the faith, I think you'll struggle with your theology.


The wheat grow with the tares. So lest we self-deceive ourselves, we must persevere in the faith. Obedience is what the Gospel does.


Obedience is what the gospel does? The gospel makes us obedient or we choose to be obedient to the gospel? We persevere in the faith, or faith makes us persevere and we can not wander?

I'm glad you're engaging in this. It's a very important theological point that forms what we do next.


It's a relationship. God is my father and I don't put
the Father to the test because I love Him because He first
loved me.


I don't mean to be inflammatory, but you dodged the question. It's ok to admit we have a role (however tiny) in our salvation. Not because we can attain salvation in any way. Nothing we can do makes us worthy. But we do need to say yes to faith in Jesus. That is a "work" of a sort. Never mind we must continue to say yes.

If you do Not believe it was our choice to say yes, then it means we have no choice to say no. This means God made certain persons with absolutely zero chance of redemption, which means He intentionally created people for the purpose of burning in Hell. Double predestination.
Exactly. Makes God a monster.

I have had an encounter with Jesus. This is not His character.

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dermdoc
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AG
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and eat with him, and he with me.

We have to open the door. And the invitation is extended to everyone.
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Zobel
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AG

Quote:

I would argue that being justified and made righteous happens only because of our faith in Christ. Our works become good - in God's eyes - only because of our faith in Him. His righteousness is imputed to us. How else could we be "new creations"? The Holy Spirit therefore gets the credit for my good works.
The works are good or evil. In Christ's teaching, He doesn't say - well, you gave water to one of these who was thirsty, but you didn't have the right faith, so it was not a good work. It is good to love others... when we love others, we are also showing love to God because they are images of God. That's why the idea of loving God and loving others are fundamentally linked.

Given that we don't have a direct English equivalent for "pistis" (faith, belief, proof) it is useful to read "faithfulness" as a translation. It is also important that righteous and justified are the same word (dikaioo). It means set right, properly ordered.

So, your first sentence is true. If you can accept my minor rewording, we are justified and made righteous -- fixed -- because of and through our faithfulness to Christ. Everywhere in St Paul we see faith as a journey, a life lived. And it is in living this life that we are healed, corrected, set right, made righteous. Not merely credited with righteousness, but actually made righteous. This is exactly how we are new creations - not old creations with a coat of paint (wouldn't we be whitewashed tombs?) and not the same old garbage but God plays pretend and says we are what we aren't. But through the grace of God, working with Him as fellow-workers, we do the works He prepared for us to do which are good and make us righteous. These properly order, justify, set aright, our relationships with other humans, with God, with material goods even, and that makes a man righteous and just. That is what justice is, properly - being set in order.

That's why over and over again St Paul tells us to walk a certain way. He testifies from the Lord, commands, that we walk differently as Christians. It is precisely because we are new creations that we must live differently, we were buried with Him into death for the purpose that we should walk in newness of life. And in another place, therefore just as we received Christ Jesus as Lord, we must continue to walk in Him, because in another place he says this walk is the calling to which we were called.

The idea of credit here is secondary. All good comes from God, the Father of lights, and apart from Him we can do nothing. I think we can agree, and leave that aside. Nevertheless, St Paul says we are to work. Not be passive and let God, but work. So what is my credit? I can't will myself to exist, and Christ Jesus unilaterally acted to save the world. From the beginning He called Abraham to make a new nation, through the Exodus and birth of Israel expanded it from one family to a mixed multitude, redeemed a place for Him to dwell, scattered the unfaithful like seeds into the nations, became Man to share in our nature and join it with the divine nature, died and rose again to free our nature from death, and then called Israel back from out of the nations into which they were scattered. All of this had nothing to do with my work, my will, my action - as St Paul says, "you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which once you walked according to the age of this world...among whom we all also once lived in the desires of our flesh...by nature children of wrath even as the rest....But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in trespasses -- by grace you are saved -- and He raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." So God did all this, this great arc of the greatest story ever told, precisely to make us to do good things.

All good, yeah? The credit is to God. And then, St Paul continuous - THEREFORE - because of all that - because we were aliens from Christ, Israel, without hope, but have been brought near and are at peace, and have this mystery proclaimed to us..."Therefore I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you to walk worthily of the calling to which you were called." We are no longer to walk the way the gentiles, foreigners, aliens do - if we have indeed learned Christ at all, and taught the Truth, we are to put on the new man and walk differently. In short, we are to "walk in love".

And! This is exactly what the NT unanimously says will be our judgment at the Day of the Lord. Did we do the things we were created to do, were we faithful to the call, did we achieve our end?


Quote:

But let's talk empirically - our personal experience with sin and blessing. When you've overcome a particularly pernicious sin in your life, or experienced an amazing blessing - how much do you really think you had to do with it? In my experience, those things happen almost in spite of me. I'm surprised that I find myself being more generous, or not screaming at the guy who cut me off, or wanting to spend more time in prayer. In short, my sanctification happens if not against my will - certainly by dragging it kicking and screaming.

I see these things as evidence (I hope) of the Holy Spirit working in my life. That just makes more sense to me empirically. Way more than the idea of righteousness being actually imparted to me. I am more - totally really - a drag than thrust in the equation I guess.
When you overcome a sin, or whatever - how does this happen? You just sit around and then a beam of light comes down from heaven and, BAM, you never do x again? This doesn't happen to me - if it does to you, I'm jealous. Empirically for me, when things go well for me, it is because I am doing my part which is pretty much to stop fighting. What are we supposed to do? Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, live the life of the Church. Participate in the Liturgy, confess our sins to each other, love one another, do the things He wants to do in our lives. Isn't this exactly what the Lord says? "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love".

The Spirit is written on our hearts so that we can do these things. The Holy Spirit produces the fruit in our lives - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and faithfulness. (Note there it's just pistis, faith, belief).

We can't be passive and aren't commanded to do that. We are commanded to work, to love with all our heart, soul, mind, strength. Not apart from God, but with Him, and He works in us to bring about justification, it is what He wants for us.
Agilaw
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AG
Just seeing this interesting thread. A few thoughts on where I stand on some of these items: somehow we are involved in salvation by making a choice to repent ("repent for the kingdom of heaver is at hand", "I stand at the door and knock", "whosoever believes"; if you are a believer, you are part of the "elect"; God initiates/seeks us out, we choose how to respond; as a believer, you are "chosen" but "free"; a believer will still sin, but will press on and persevere in their faith - it may not be pretty at times (see David an other OT believers); there will be rewards on heaven for what we have done on earth; faith is apart from works, but works will be evident in a true believer.

Where I stand on some of the other items: God didn't/doesn't predestine individuals to an eternity separated from Him (hell); people need salvation or they will experience separation from God; God loves everyone/the world; God desires all to repent/be "saved"; God is Holy (separate/apart); a believer will strive to be Holy too.

On God selecting/electing some to salvation and passing over others - If you were to get out a map of the world and highlight areas where the gospel has resulted in the salvation of people, would it curiously show that is where efforts are made to evangelize/spread the gospel? Why is it that a person who believes in election is always part of the elect? Why is it that a person who believes in election, curiously, there family and close friends also seen to have been blessed to be elect as well? Why would God be electing certain areas of the world and neglecting other large populations of the world?

Other difficult items: People that reject God really don't want to be or wouldn't want to be in heaven? Ex. Revelation where judgments are poured out of the people of earth, the people of earth don't repent but they actually curse the name of God.

Finally, sometimes the thoughts and ways of God are beyond our human ability to comprehend, understand, and explain. And that's ok. That is also a part of faith to understand our God knows what He is doing and He is Good. All the time!
dermdoc
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AG
Amen to the two last posts.
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Wakesurfer817
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Zobel said:


When you overcome a sin, or whatever - how does this happen? You just sit around and then a beam of light comes down from heaven and, BAM, you never do x again? This doesn't happen to me - if it does to you, I'm jealous. Empirically for me, when things go well for me, it is because I am doing my part which is pretty much to stop fighting. What are we supposed to do? Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, live the life of the Church. Participate in the Liturgy, confess our sins to each other, love one another, do the things He wants to do in our lives. Isn't this exactly what the Lord says? "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love".

If Tthe Spirit is written on our hearts so that we can do these things. The Holy Spirit produces the fruit in our lives - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and faithfulness. (Note there it's just pistis, faith, belief).

We can't be passive and aren't commanded to do that. We are commanded to work, to love with all our heart, soul, mind, strength. Not apart from God, but with Him, and He works in us to bring about justification, it is what He wants for us.
Generally speaking, I'm in strong agreement with just about everything you've written. Small - but important - change to the first sentence, second para.

Permit me another analogy - in spite of an approaching hurricane, you and I take a boat out to sea,. Not surprisingly our boat sinks and we are left to drown. Luckily for us, the Coast Guard helicopter arrives, deploys a rescue swimmer into the (very dangerous) ocean, and we are (agree to be?) saved.

It's true that we were not passive in being saved - we allowed ourselves to be saved after all. But relative to the Coast Guard? They took all the risk, no? The only reason we could accept saving was because of them. The headline in the paper should be all about the swimmer, and very little about the..."sailors".

I think that the real value of a more monergistic, Augustinian (yes, and Calvin/Zwiglian too) view is that it tends to make the story more about God and less about us. This is I think especially value in these post-modernistic days of "it's all about me and my truth".
Wakesurfer817
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"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

As you know Doc - 2 seemingly contradictory things can be true at the same time. God can be entirely good and righteous and merciful, and still "love Jacob and hate Esau". He can love each of us enough to die for us and still raise up Pharaoh to show his power.

I have no idea how or why. Mysteries all. I know there are many things in God's word that make us - make me - uncomfortable. I get it.

And - I know that when we meet in heaven there's a good chance you're right and I'm wrong. And I'll buy you a beer (either way). (Maybe they'll be free up there?)
dermdoc
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AG
Wakesurfer817 said:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

As you know Doc - 2 seemingly contradictory things can be true at the same time. God can be entirely good and righteous and merciful, and still "love Jacob and hate Esau". He can love each of us enough to die for us and still raise up Pharaoh to show his power.

I have no idea how or why. Mysteries all. I know there are many things in God's word that make us - make me - uncomfortable. I get it.

And - I know that when we meet in heaven there's a good chance you're right and I'm wrong. And I'll buy you a beer (either way). (Maybe they'll be free up there?)


Sounds great. And Esau ended up being blessed by God and reconciled with Jacob.

And I have no problem with anything you posted. I have a huge problem with double predestination because that is not the character of God in my opinion.

I do not believe God throws people into hell without giving them a chance.

And I would prefer free red wine.
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Zobel
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AG
The problem is an overly-broad use of the word saved. God saved us unilaterally from alienation. Christ Jesus saved us unilaterally by redeeming our nature from death through the Incarnation.

But we are not saved apart from our own actions from judgment and condemnation, we are not saved toward eternal life apart from our own actions. St Paul is clear on this, too:

"Do you suppose this, you who judge those practicing such things while doing them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your hardness and unrepentant heart, you are treasuring up to yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God, who "will give to each according to his works.' To those who with endurance in good work are seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are self-interested and do not the truth, but being follow unrighteousness, wrath and anger."


Here even eternal life is about this test: if you endure in good work, He will give you eternal life.

So no, I do not agree that all we have to do is allow ourselves to be saved. That is not what the scriptures say, it isn't what Christ teaches.

Quote:

If Tthe Spirit is written on our hearts so that we can do these things.
That is not what the scriptures say. St Paul never says - hey you've been baptized so obviously you are doing all of this stuff - nice work! The opposite is the case, he says you've been baptized so what on earth are you doing living the way you were before? "Don't you know we will judge the angels?" He doesn't say, you've received the Spirit so you walk well, he says because you've received the spirit, you must walk according to the calling you were created for. "It is for discipline that you have to endure...therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees... see that you do not refuse him who is speaking." It doesn't end when we receive the Spirit, it begins.

Quote:

I think that the real value of a more monergistic, Augustinian (yes, and Calvin/Zwiglian too) view is that it tends to make the story more about God and less about us. This is I think especially value in these post-modernistic days of "it's all about me and my truth".
The beautiful thing about the story of God is that He chooses in love to share His reign with His creation, even to partake of our nature so that we can partake of His. You can fall off both sides of the horse here. Denying the grace God gives each of us to share in His work rejects the very real gift He gives, which is our participation. From the beginning to the end of the scriptures, God chooses to work through people to accomplish His end. The story is no less about God because of this choice on His part - it is even more amazing.
TheGreatEscape
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Well yeah, Zobel. The covenant is 100% conditional on man's part. And the covenant is 100% unconditional on God's part.
God always wins his children over from the devil, sin, and death.
dermdoc
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AG
TheGreatEscape said:

All that is required is faith and repentance. Obedience is something that comes from the power of
the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the finished work of Christ.
You still avoid saying that you believe that God pre ordains people to hell. And that there is no free will. So some people are never given a chance.

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TheGreatEscape
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2 Corinthians 1:22 (ESV)

22 "and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."
Agilaw
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AG
It is an interesting proposition for those who hold that position. It seems they have difficulty in stating openly and clearly that point of their theology - "you are either predestined to heaven or you are predestined to hell, and there is nothing you can do about it". . Presumably the struggle is because it isn't what they think others would want to hear and they also don't like sharing it openly.
TheGreatEscape
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John 6:37 (ESV)

37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

John 6:44 (ESV)

44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

TheGreatEscape
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John 1:13 (ESV)

13 "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
PabloSerna
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TheGreatEscape said:

Well yeah, Zobel. The covenant is 100% conditional on man's part. And the covenant is 100% unconditional on God's part.
God always wins his children over from the devil, sin, and death.
Trying to understand the first part; are you saying man has free will to partake in the covenant promised unconditionally by God?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." JN 3:16

And Jesus said to him, "If you can! All things are possible to him who believes." Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" MK 9:23-24

+++

ETA: Wish I could give Zobel's post more blue stars!
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Well yeah, Zobel. The covenant is 100% conditional on man's part. And the covenant is 100% unconditional on God's part.
God always wins his children over from the devil, sin, and death.
Trying to understand the first part; are you saying man has free will to partake in the covenant promised unconditionally by God?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." JN 3:16


God loves the world enough to preserve a remnant on earth.
And that is another verse that supports "If saved…always saved."
PabloSerna
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AG
Does man have free will?
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

Does man have free will?


We are definitely choosing beings. God overcomes us with His attractive grace and leads us into salvation.

As the hymn says, "I once was lost but now I'm found…was blind but now I see."
TheGreatEscape
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Jude 1:24-24 (ESV)

24 "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."
Agilaw
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AG
I'm also interested in your clear stance on the questions that have been posed to you. I think the questions are very clear. Does man have free will? Are people predestined to either an eternity heaven or to eternal separation from God in a place called hell?

Dad-O-Lot
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AG
dermdoc said:

Dad-O-Lot said:

When one becomes "born again", they do not lose their free will. Their conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be genuine in their youth but still be rejected later in life.

If at the end of a person's life on earth, they have freely chosen to be separated from God, then that is where they will spend eternity regardless of how many salvation prayers they have prayed.


ETA: by "rejected", I am referring to the individual rejecting their own previous conversion. Just as we have the freedom to embrace Jesus, we also still have the freedom to later reject him.



Agree. But that is not possible with double predestination. I guess it does absolve parents of their child's faith walk and eternal destination.
They can not make their child elect.
I don't follow you.

I don't see how being able to "change your mind" about salvation is "double predestination". As for parents' "absolution" of their child's faith walk and eternal destination, a parent can do everything "right" and still lose their child to the world.

No, a parent cannot guarantee their child's choice regarding their eternal salvation.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "double predestination".
TheGreatEscape
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Agilaw said:

I'm also interested in your clear stance on the questions that have been posed to you. I think the questions are very clear. Does man have free will? Are people predestined to either an eternity heaven or to eternal separation from God in a place called hell?



John 6:37 (ESV)

37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

John 6:44 (ESV)

44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
dermdoc
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AG
Dad-O-Lot said:

dermdoc said:

Dad-O-Lot said:

When one becomes "born again", they do not lose their free will. Their conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can be genuine in their youth but still be rejected later in life.

If at the end of a person's life on earth, they have freely chosen to be separated from God, then that is where they will spend eternity regardless of how many salvation prayers they have prayed.


ETA: by "rejected", I am referring to the individual rejecting their own previous conversion. Just as we have the freedom to embrace Jesus, we also still have the freedom to later reject him.



Agree. But that is not possible with double predestination. I guess it does absolve parents of their child's faith walk and eternal destination.
They can not make their child elect.
I don't follow you.

I don't see how being able to "change your mind" about salvation is "double predestination". As for parents' "absolution" of their child's faith walk and eternal destination, a parent can do everything "right" and still lose their child to the world.

No, a parent cannot guarantee their child's choice regarding their eternal salvation.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "double predestination".


Double predestination means God irrevocably chooses the elect and pre ordains that the other folks are damned to hell.

Check out Calvin's institute #21
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Agilaw
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AG
You didn't answer anything. I think it points to the explanation in my previous post. You are reluctant to state what you hold to be true because it causes a check in your own spirit if you were to state it clearly and not simply post scripture without explanation of what you say they mean.
dermdoc
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AG
Agilaw said:

You didn't answer anything. I think it points to the explanation in my previous post. You are reluctant to state what you hold to be true because it causes a check in your own spirit if you were to state it clearly and not simply post scripture without explanation of what you say they mean.
You are correct. It is fascinating how Calvinists will not talk about double pre destination when it is a central part of their theology.
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Wakesurfer817
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dermdoc said:

Agilaw said:

You didn't answer anything. I think it points to the explanation in my previous post. You are reluctant to state what you hold to be true because it causes a check in your own spirit if you were to state it clearly and not simply post scripture without explanation of what you say they mean.
You are correct. It is fascinating how Calvinists will not talk about double pre destination when it is a central part of their theology.
I would not say that double pre-destination is necessarily a central part of Reformed theology - today across the whole "denomination" at least. As with all systems there is a spectrum. Calvin and Luther themselves were far more open to mystery (and arguably closer to later Augustinian ideas) than what eventually became known as "TULIP" (which was "codified" in the Synod of Dort in 1618 - 54 years after Calvin died).

In any case, today I would bet that your average Reformed Christian is probably somewhere between around a 3.5 point Calvinist. Most would probably recoil at the idea of double predestination - especially in its supralapsarian flavor. Our concepts of free will are much closer to Augustine today than Dort, i.e. we have the freedom to do what we want - but all we want without Christ is evil.

What I think most Reformed Christians would agree upon (with Calvin, Luther, and Augustine) is that what we all deserve is to burn. We were enemies of God - and without Christ's work on the cross, we would still be. That He allows by his grace and mercy any of us to be with him is astounding.

dermdoc
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AG
Wakesurfer817 said:

dermdoc said:

Agilaw said:

You didn't answer anything. I think it points to the explanation in my previous post. You are reluctant to state what you hold to be true because it causes a check in your own spirit if you were to state it clearly and not simply post scripture without explanation of what you say they mean.
You are correct. It is fascinating how Calvinists will not talk about double pre destination when it is a central part of their theology.
I would not say that double pre-destination is necessarily a central part of Reformed theology - today across the whole "denomination" at least. As with all systems there is a spectrum. Calvin and Luther themselves were far more open to mystery (and arguably closer to later Augustinian ideas) than what eventually became known as "TULIP" (which was "codified" in the Synod of Dort in 1618 - 54 years after Calvin died).

In any case, today I would bet that your average Reformed Christian is probably somewhere between around a 3.5 point Calvinist. Most would probably recoil at the idea of double predestination - especially in its supralapsarian flavor. Our concepts of free will are much closer to Augustine today than Dort, i.e. we have the freedom to do what we want - but all we want without Christ is evil.

What I think most Reformed Christians would agree upon (with Calvin, Luther, and Augustine) is that what we all deserve is to burn. We were enemies of God - and without Christ's work on the cross, we would still be. That He allows by his grace and mercy any of us to be with him is astounding.


Have you read Calvin's Institute #21? And if you are not a Calvinist then say so.

Why all the wish washy?

It is bad theology taken on its face and makes God a monster.
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TheGreatEscape
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Agilaw said:

You didn't answer anything. I think it points to the explanation in my previous post. You are reluctant to state what you hold to be true because it causes a check in your own spirit if you were to state it clearly and not simply post scripture without explanation of what you say they mean.


I'm a C word everyone. I responded with Bible verses because that's really the main goal. It's not what I think but it's what the Scriptures speak.
dermdoc
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AG
TheGreatEscape said:

Agilaw said:

You didn't answer anything. I think it points to the explanation in my previous post. You are reluctant to state what you hold to be true because it causes a check in your own spirit if you were to state it clearly and not simply post scripture without explanation of what you say they mean.


I'm a C word everyone. I responded with Bible verses because that's really the main goal. It's not what I think but it's what the Scriptures speak.
So where in the Bible is double predestination?
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Wakesurfer817
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I've read a good bit of Calvin's Institutes. I find they work far better to help me go to sleep than melatonin. Which is why I've forgotten most of it. Having said that - here's what I mean by Calvin's relative openness to mystery - or at least his respect for deep water (From Chapter 21):

"First, then, when they inquire into predestination, let then remember that they are penetrating into the recesses of the divine wisdom, where he who rushes forward securely and confidently, instead of satisfying his curiosity will enter in inextricable labyrinth. For it is not right that man should with impunity pry into things which the Lord has been pleased to conceal within himself, and scan that sublime eternal wisdom which it is his pleasure that we should not apprehend but adore, that therein also his perfections may appear."

If you put a gun to my head and made me tell you if I was more double or single predestination - I'd probably lean towards single. But I could argue it both ways. God does what he does - but he does it with perfect mercy, righteousness and goodness.


 
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