BluHorseShu said:
AgLiving06 said:
dermdoc said:
AgLiving06 said:
Respectfully, most or all heretics quoted Scripture.
So simply saying "I'm using Scripture" doesn't mean much unless it's within proper context.
Sure 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says what you say it says, but as is always the case, there's more.
1 Timothy 4:1-2 "4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared..."
So Paul has made 2 clear statements.
1. Jesus wants all people to be saved.
2. Some will depart from the saving faith and follow deceitful spirits and demons.
In your theology, you only want to affirm the first statement, but not the second. The challenge I have is that, unless you proof text out of context, I'm not sure there's any scripture that stands alone that God saves all unconditionally.
Disagree. That is not what I am saying. There will be punishment but it will be corrective punishment.
Which actually takes things one step further than Roman Catholics.
Rome hold that purgatory is for believers (which is not scriptural).
You're now proposing another place for non-believers. What Scripture supports it?
The challenge to your concept is 1 Peter 3 that:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
Things we should note.
1. There are people who did not obey God in a "prison."
2. Jesus proclaims to them.
3. There is no indication they are freed from this "prison."
Actually, there are scriptures that support purgatory. Which is essentially (and I'm overly simplyfying)...is the placed where you get cleaned up to enter heaven after you've persevered. Some have become more righteous throughout there lives and their time of purification could be instantaneous. Some may be saved by died without repenting of all their sins. Still saved, but need more purification. Christ's sacrifice was already enough for salvation. This end process is a preparation to enter heaven. No one fails if they're there.
Rev. 21:27 "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven"
Matthew 5:25-26 "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny
I Corinthians 3:11-15 "Each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done".
I'd list Maccabees but I don't know if you consider it part of your OT canon.
None of these verses support any concept of purgatory. In normal fashion, you start with a presupposition of purgatory, and are forcing verses to fit it.
But lets take Rev 21:27 "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven."
Are you saying that John and Paul disagree on the cleanliness of man before God?
Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body.
31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.Christ has made his Church holy and unblemished through his life, death and resurrection. When we stand before God, we will be unblemished. Pretty straight forward.
