The Lutheran general thesis is this (summary leve).

There are (at least) two key premises that are both correct and remove the concept of universalism or limited atonement

1. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus died for all.

2. The Scriptures are clear that there are men who will lose faith and fall away and be separated from God.

Both statements are well supported within Scripture.

Both statements create all kinds of problems for the two options above that they really can't be supported.

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

---

So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

And as far as Sodom and Gomorrah

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angles indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. They are not still burning. The fire was obviously not eternal.

That favors annihilationism over eternal torment hell.

As influenced as Jude is by Enochic literature, we should probably at least consider 1 Enoch as a background for that statement … which strongly, *strongly* points back to eternal damnation versus annihilationism.

Zobel said:

---

As influenced as Jude is by Enochic literature, we should probably at least consider 1 Enoch as a background for that statement … which strongly, *strongly* points back to eternal damnation versus annihilationism.

---

Agree. And as I said, there is Scriptural support for ECT hell, annihilationism, and universal reconciliation.

A few points. As is consistent with my theology, I don't believe that God knows our choices ahead of time. "God knows beacuse He wills". Aside from people, God knows everything because God wills everything. If He knew our choices ahead of time, then it would be because He willed our choices ahead of time. Meaning no free will. And without free will the entire question of suffering is moot. The lack of free will plus the existence of suffering would make any deity an unfathomable monster.

Next, it's not suffering making me better than you. It's your response to your own suffering and the suffering of others that shows your true character. Anyone can be charitable and kind when it costs them nothing or they have excess. But would you make yourself suffer in order to ease someone else's suffering? Without suffering everyone is good all the time, but what value does that have? Christians believe that sacrifice and suffering give love meaning.

Regarding journey and destination, I think you have me wrong. Christians believe that we can be evil for all but the last minute of our lives. If we repent in that last minute and strive for goodness, then we gain eternal life same as anyone else. We have an entire lifetime of opportunity to try to be good people. The journey is of the utmost importance, and IMHO it's the whole reason we have a mortal life and free will.

I think your mixing and matching terminology to try and defend your position.

Outside of Calvinism, nearly everybody will agree with Universal Justification/Atonement. Many verses support it.

However, Scripture is also extremely clear that faith is a necessity to partake in that gift and that is where universalism falls apart in practice.

OP - you are mistaken and twisting the verses for your desired belief. Please use a holistic view

Most Relevant Verses for hell and eternal punishment

Revelation 20:10

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Matthew 25:41

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Hebrews 6:2

of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Matthew 25:46

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:44-48

[where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

John 5:29

and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

34blast said:

---

OP - you are mistaken and twisting the verses for your desired belief. Please use a holistic view

Most Relevant Verses for hell and eternal punishment

Revelation 20:10

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Matthew 25:41

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Hebrews 6:2

of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Matthew 25:46

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:44-48

[where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

John 5:29

and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

---

Just curious, did you read the links I provided?

I read all of your verses.

Did you read mine?

And as I said, neither of us is going to change their mind. But I acknowledged there is Scripture that supports ECT hell although some of the verses you listed support destruction and favor annihilationism.

There are a lot of verses that seem to support annihilationism and universal reconciliation. In fact, I think there are more for those two theologies than ECT hell.

Al I am asking is you take the time to read them.

I will be honest with you that I had no idea there was so much Scripture supporting universal reconciliation. Those verse were not taught in the Baptist churchI grew up in.

I read through the link you posted.

Respectfully, it's proof texting at its worst. It's like he did a word search and just posted any verse that had the words he wanted. This is more or less what M1buckeye/codker does here.

For example, the last one I looked at is 1 John 4:14 says "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world."

We can read that and say, yes when God says all, he means all.

However, and this important, we need to also look at the verses around it.

When we do that we see:

12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

Verse 17 talks of the day of judgement. If it was the verse right after 14, maybe you'd have a stronger case, but unfortunately it's not.

There is a major conditional statement between 14 and 17. That we confess Jesus is the Son of God.

If you have that confession of faith, we have confidence in the day of judgement. Without that faith...there should not be any confidence.

So again, universal justification/atonement? Absolutely.
Universal salvation/eventual reconciliation? This idea seems foreign to Scriptures (when Scriptures are maintained in proper context).

AgLiving06 said:

---

I read through the link you posted.

Respectfully, it's proof texting at its worst. It's like he did a word search and just posted any verse that had the words he wanted. This is more or less what M1buckeye/codker does here.

For example, the last one I looked at is 1 John 4:14 says "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world."

We can read that and say, yes when God says all, he means all.

However, and this important, we need to also look at the verses around it.

When we do that we see:

12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

Verse 17 talks of the day of judgement. If it was the verse right after 14, maybe you'd have a stronger case, but unfortunately it's not.

There is a major conditional statement between 14 and 17. That we confess Jesus is the Son of God.

If you have that confession of faith, we have confidence in the day of judgement. Without that faith...there should not be any confidence.

So again, universal justification/atonement? Absolutely.
Universal salvation/eventual reconciliation? This idea seems foreign to Scriptures (when Scriptures are maintained in proper context).

---

Agree to disagree. Thanks for the civil discussion. And is confession different than every knee shall bow and proclaim Jesus as Lord?

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

---

So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

---

First, I believe that the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God! As such, God has said repeatedly that the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven is through the Son, Jesus Christ! The ONLY way!!
So, the Universalist view you are advocating goes totally against the Bible and God's Holy Word. Because, if there is a time where God calls ALL souls to Heaven, then that completely contradicts His Word. Your basically saying , "hey, there will be ANOTHER WAY one day.....God will just rescue you at some point and time and "allow" you in. Regardless if you were an unbeliever, Hindu, Muslim, etc.....you're good. Your argument is that an evil person who might have molested and murdered innocent children, or even Adolf Hitler, who had millions killed and tortured....that God will one day just say: "hey buddy, I think you've finally been through enough torment, so just come on up and join us in all the blessings of Heaven!" I'm sorry, I can't fathom that, nor find it Biblical! Matthew 25:41 says that lost souls will be cast into the eternal fire! Eternal is defined as "forever!" In conclusion, the doctrine you are advocating can be summed up by saying "you do not need to accept Jesus as your Savior during this life....as you will be allowed in Heaven one day anyway!" That seems unbiblical to me.

But what are we disagreeing about?

Let's use a different example.

I can make a claim that Jesus is working hand in hand with Satan if I take Matthew 12:24 by itself: "24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."


I think we can both agree that would be poor proof texting because we both agree it's wrong.

So the question becomes, is proof texting good or bad depending on whether we want to believe it, or is it good or bad based on it fitting the correct context?

----------
To your next question, lets do the same review of Philippians 2:

The verses you referred to: 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Like 1 John, if Paul stopped here, your case is strong. Unfortunately Paul doesn't stop there.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

Paul in this instance is not making the claim that because there is a day when all will confess Jesus is Lord, that our salvation in assured. He implores the Philippians to continue to work out their salvation so that his own labor isn't in vain.

So the question back to you would be, if Paul believes salvation is universal and assured, how could anything he had done be in vain?

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

I think suffering refines us and makes us into the people God wants us to be.

And I believe God ultimately refines and purifies all of Creation. Otherwise God loses.

---

I'm just going to talk through this idea. So the perfect God creates imperfect men. To correct that imperfection He creates suffering, which is unquestionably the worst thing anyone can experience. God then makes His imperfect creation suffer in order to perfect them. Again, the suffering is an unnecessary step, right? If God's only goal was the perfection of everyone, then He could just make us perfect in the first place.

---

If he made us perfect, we would not experience true freedom to choose Him.

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

A few points. As is consistent with my theology, I don't believe that God knows our choices ahead of time. "God knows beacuse He wills". Aside from people, God knows everything because God wills everything. If He knew our choices ahead of time, then it would be because He willed our choices ahead of time. Meaning no free will. And without free will the entire question of suffering is moot. The lack of free will plus the existence of suffering would make any deity an unfathomable monster.

---

Sure we can let god be almost omniscient. It still doesn't make inconsistent suffering as measured not against actions but your faith when you die a very thoughtful method.

But this goes back to my previous point which you ignored. If the lack of free will plus the existence of suffering makes a deity a monster, then it follows that your god is a monster. As suffering existed for billions of years for non-sapient creatures. How can you reconcile this?

Quote:

---

Next, it's not suffering making me better than you. It's your response to your own suffering and the suffering of others that shows your true character.

---

But we aren't measured by our character in Christianity. These eternal stakes are decided elsewise, and your example below is a perfect illustration. And again the level of suffering is vastly different between people.

Quote:

---

Regarding journey and destination, I think you have me wrong. Christians believe that we can be evil for all but the last minute of our lives. If we repent in that last minute and strive for goodness, then we gain eternal life same as anyone else.

---

This is literally a perfect example of destination over journey. I think your Christian mindset is so overtly focused on destination you cannot even see it. Your actual example is of a journey being one against god, where you perform "poorly" under suffering 99% of your life, and you time that 1% appropriately before your death and you get the reward. This is the quintessential example of destination over journey. I would have difficulty contriving a more perfect example.

Quote:

---

We have an entire lifetime of opportunity to try to be good people.

---

But as your example illustrates, it really doesn't matter so long as you are in the right state of belief and repentance when you die. Or in a contrary sense, you could have a lifetime of being a great person and simply not believe in your god. Or you could have a lifetime of being the pope, and lose faith completely at the end of your life. If you end up in hell, the journey is pointless.

Quote:

---

The journey is of the utmost importance, and IMHO it's the whole reason we have a mortal life and free will.

---

Again, this isn't about the journey. It's so foreign to Christianity that you cannot see it. You are simply making life into a test, something that's passed based on your belief conditions at death rather than taken as a whole. The journey is meaningless, it's just opportunity for you to be in a pass or fail condition at the moment of your death. And the value that you measure from life isn't based on those experiences, it's based on if you end up in heaven or hell. In your own example a man with a poor life and a deathbed confession is a great thing as he ends up in heaven all the same. And for you heaven is all that mattered.

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

---

So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

---

First, I believe that the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God! As such, God has said repeatedly that the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven is through the Son, Jesus Christ! The ONLY way!!
So, the Universalist view you are advocating goes totally against the Bible and God's Holy Word. Because, if there is a time where God calls ALL souls to Heaven, then that completely contradicts His Word. Your basically saying , "hey, there will be ANOTHER WAY one day.....God will just rescue you at some point and time and "allow" you in. Regardless if you were an unbeliever, Hindu, Muslim, etc.....you're good. Your argument is that an evil person who might have molested and murdered innocent children, or even Adolf Hitler, who had millions killed and tortured....that God will one day just say: "hey buddy, I think you've finally been through enough torment, so just come on up and join us in all the blessings of Heaven!" I'm sorry, I can't fathom that, nor find it Biblical! Matthew 25:41 says that lost souls will be cast into the eternal fire! Eternal is defined as "forever!" In conclusion, the doctrine you are advocating can be summed up by saying "you do not need to accept Jesus as your Savior during this life....as you will be allowed in Heaven one day anyway!" That seems unbiblical to me.

---

I agree Jesus is the only way.

What if He decides to save everyone as many Scriptures support? Scripture clearly states God desires all men to be saved, correct?

So the question becomes is man's free will strong enough to thwart the desires of Almighty God?

You are saying God does not get what he desires.

I think perhaps you are are arguing against someone else, or some generic Christian you have built up in your head. I'm trying to respond, but you take for granted that I believe a great many things that I do not. By the time I explained my beliefs to you, I wouldn't need to even respond to 75% of your objections. My theology is at odds in many places with your casual conception of Christian beliefs

I'm not trying to stawman you. I've mostly responded to your very specific examples which I think run quite contrary to what you are arguing.

I know you don't believe in ECT hell, and I acknowledge you don't think omniscience goes into knowledge of human action. Outside of that I'm not sure of what critical divergences you have with conventional Christian beliefs that are critical to this conversation.

Quote:

---

Or in a contrary sense, you could have a lifetime of being a great person and simply not believe in your god.

---

This simple statement shows you have no idea whatsoever about my beliefs. I'm pretty vocal about this subject in particular more than anything else on this board for years.

The only salient point you've made in regards to my beliefs is the presence of suffering in the natural world prior to the arrival of humans in animals that don't have free will. That was a good one.

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

Or in a contrary sense, you could have a lifetime of being a great person and simply not believe in your god.

---

This simple statement shows you have no idea whatsoever about my beliefs. I'm pretty vocal about this subject in particular more than anything else on this board for years.

---

It may be, I wasn't aware or didn't remember and I'm on here plenty. Perhaps it was on some threads where believers are arguing amongst themselves over something inconsequential or uninteresting to the rest of us, or I simply forgot.

Quote:

---

The only salient point you've made in regards to my beliefs is the presence of suffering in the natural world prior to the arrival of humans in animals that don't have free will. That was a good one.

---

I really don't see how you consider a man being saved on his deathbed as anything less than the journey not mattering. And you at least to some extent are using last minute belief as a saving grace even if not a damning condition in the opposite direction.

To put it simply i see a deathbed confession and someone doing poorly in this life and still finding their way to heaven via universal reconciliation to be 99.9% the same. You seem to give that 0.1% so much weight as to deem suffering meaningless, and I don't see how that follows.

Quote:

---

I really don't see how you consider a man being saved on his deathbed as anything less than the journey not mattering. And you at least to some extent are using last minute belief as a saving grace even if not a damning condition in the opposite direction.

---

First, we are judge by who were are when we die, and not who we were 50 years, 10 years, 1 year, 10 days, or 10 minutes before we die. People are always changing and growing. We are the sum of our experiences and choices. In other words, our current character is the result of our journey. We are each our journey embodied at every minute, and we change minute to minute because our journey isn't over. Only at the point of death is the journey over, and that point we no longer change. So if you are making an eternal judgement, it only makes sense to judge the person we are at that last moment.

Quote:

---

To put it simply i see a deathbed confession and someone doing poorly in this life and still finding their way to heaven via universal reconciliation to be 99.9% the same. You seem to give that 0.1% so much weight as to deem suffering meaningless, and I don't see how that follows.

---

It's a matter of outcome. If 100% of people will experience bliss forever, then why didn't we just start there? Couldn't God teach us all these wonderful lessons about morality and personal growth without making us suffer? To me the problem of suffering has only one possible solution. It is so awful and so antithetical to God's love for us that it must be entirely indispensible to God's overall design. So IMHO, any system which works just as well without suffering should be rejected out of hand. Universal reconciliation is one such system.

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

---

So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

---

First, I believe that the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God! As such, God has said repeatedly that the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven is through the Son, Jesus Christ! The ONLY way!!
So, the Universalist view you are advocating goes totally against the Bible and God's Holy Word. Because, if there is a time where God calls ALL souls to Heaven, then that completely contradicts His Word. Your basically saying , "hey, there will be ANOTHER WAY one day.....God will just rescue you at some point and time and "allow" you in. Regardless if you were an unbeliever, Hindu, Muslim, etc.....you're good. Your argument is that an evil person who might have molested and murdered innocent children, or even Adolf Hitler, who had millions killed and tortured....that God will one day just say: "hey buddy, I think you've finally been through enough torment, so just come on up and join us in all the blessings of Heaven!" I'm sorry, I can't fathom that, nor find it Biblical! Matthew 25:41 says that lost souls will be cast into the eternal fire! Eternal is defined as "forever!" In conclusion, the doctrine you are advocating can be summed up by saying "you do not need to accept Jesus as your Savior during this life....as you will be allowed in Heaven one day anyway!" That seems unbiblical to me.

---

I agree Jesus is the only way.

What if He decides to save everyone as many Scriptures support? Scripture clearly states God desires all men to be saved, correct?

So the question becomes is man's free will strong enough to thwart the desires of Almighty God?

You are saying God does not get what he desires.

---

So you are saying that it was God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin since they did and clearly nothing can go against God's will?

Or more generically...God desires that you and I sin since we do...

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

If 100% of people will experience bliss forever, then why didn't we just start there?

---

Remember how I said Christianity doesn't see the journey. this is what I meant. You are all destination and no journey. It's meaningless for you.

Quote:

---

Couldn't God teach us all these wonderful lessons about morality and personal growth without making us suffer?

---

Probably not honestly. There is a difference between a lesson learned through experience and a lesson taught through dictate. I don't find them equal. I don't buy unequal suffering as a test, but I will buy it as an experience provided we are made whole. I find the test to be simply monstrous. Particularly when god doesn't offer the simple decency to let us all know we are being tested and how.

Quote:

---

To me the problem of suffering has only one possible solution. It is so awful and so antithetical to God's love for us that it must be entirely indispensible to God's overall design. So IMHO, any system which works just as well without suffering should be rejected out of hand. Universal reconciliation is one such system.

---

Again, this in only true if you put the destination before the journey. Once you abandon this portion of thinking so baked into Christianity, you might see a possibility that god finds something absolutely indispensable about the journey that has nothing to do with judgement damnation, or eternal bliss.

And now we're talking in circles

If God real why butthole feel good?

Dies Irae said:

---

If God real why butthole feel good?

---

Huh? Did your account get hacked or was this a autocorrect thing?

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

---

So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

---

First, I believe that the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God! As such, God has said repeatedly that the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven is through the Son, Jesus Christ! The ONLY way!!
So, the Universalist view you are advocating goes totally against the Bible and God's Holy Word. Because, if there is a time where God calls ALL souls to Heaven, then that completely contradicts His Word. Your basically saying , "hey, there will be ANOTHER WAY one day.....God will just rescue you at some point and time and "allow" you in. Regardless if you were an unbeliever, Hindu, Muslim, etc.....you're good. Your argument is that an evil person who might have molested and murdered innocent children, or even Adolf Hitler, who had millions killed and tortured....that God will one day just say: "hey buddy, I think you've finally been through enough torment, so just come on up and join us in all the blessings of Heaven!" I'm sorry, I can't fathom that, nor find it Biblical! Matthew 25:41 says that lost souls will be cast into the eternal fire! Eternal is defined as "forever!" In conclusion, the doctrine you are advocating can be summed up by saying "you do not need to accept Jesus as your Savior during this life....as you will be allowed in Heaven one day anyway!" That seems unbiblical to me.

---

I agree Jesus is the only way.

What if He decides to save everyone as many Scriptures support? Scripture clearly states God desires all men to be saved, correct?

So the question becomes is man's free will strong enough to thwart the desires of Almighty God?

You are saying God does not get what he desires.

---

So you are saying that it was God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin since they did and clearly nothing can go against God's will?

Or more generically...God desires that you and I sin since we do...

---

I am just posing the question. And as far as I know, Adam and Eve did not go to ECT hell when they died.

The wages of sin are death. Not eternal torment.

Do you think Adam and Eve went to hell?

Seems like apples to oranges.

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

---

So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

---

First, I believe that the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God! As such, God has said repeatedly that the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven is through the Son, Jesus Christ! The ONLY way!!
So, the Universalist view you are advocating goes totally against the Bible and God's Holy Word. Because, if there is a time where God calls ALL souls to Heaven, then that completely contradicts His Word. Your basically saying , "hey, there will be ANOTHER WAY one day.....God will just rescue you at some point and time and "allow" you in. Regardless if you were an unbeliever, Hindu, Muslim, etc.....you're good. Your argument is that an evil person who might have molested and murdered innocent children, or even Adolf Hitler, who had millions killed and tortured....that God will one day just say: "hey buddy, I think you've finally been through enough torment, so just come on up and join us in all the blessings of Heaven!" I'm sorry, I can't fathom that, nor find it Biblical! Matthew 25:41 says that lost souls will be cast into the eternal fire! Eternal is defined as "forever!" In conclusion, the doctrine you are advocating can be summed up by saying "you do not need to accept Jesus as your Savior during this life....as you will be allowed in Heaven one day anyway!" That seems unbiblical to me.

---

I agree Jesus is the only way.

What if He decides to save everyone as many Scriptures support? Scripture clearly states God desires all men to be saved, correct?

So the question becomes is man's free will strong enough to thwart the desires of Almighty God?

You are saying God does not get what he desires.

---

Those are valid points....although I do not concur. Of course God desires, meaning wants, all to accept the free gift of eternal life through his Son. However, he gave us the free will to choose, and a consequence for those who refuse Him, which is eternity in Hell.

Does not God desire that we all follow His ways and be more Christlike, and unfortunately the vast majority don't?

Earlier you mentioned how I could conceive that a loving God would make people spend eternity in Hell? Let me refer to the Bible for the answer (and to the answer about God's desires): Isaiah 55: 8-9 " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, declares the Lord. As the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts!" In other words.....God has his ways and it is not in our capacity to understand his ways!

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

And now we're talking in circles

---

It appears so. You seem to be missing what I mean about the journey mattering. It's a mutually exclusive view to your own. As your entire argument presuppositionally assumes that the journey is pointless.

Your argument is something along the lines of

1. God would not allow pointless suffering

2. Life has suffering

3. journeys have no intrinsic value only destinations

4. Life under universal salvation has no effect on the destination

5. Per item 3, life has no intrinsic value and is pointless

6. Therefore life is suffering with no intrinsic value, and god would not allow this.

This argument completely falls apart if you abandon 3, which is rather unique to Christianity.

I specifically responded that at every moment we are all the sum total of our experiences and choices, in other words "our journey". Our present condition, which is the ultimate expression of our journey, is all that matters from eternal standpoint.

But I guess I agree that compared to eternity, our short lives on Earth are not important in and of themselves. Compare 80 years to eternity and 80 years is nothing. However, if that 80 years makes a permanent effect on eternity, then that 80 years becomes very meaningful even on the most vast of scales. I think this is a fundamental difference between you and I as a Christian and an atheist. My timescale is eternity. Your timescale is your life. On your timescale, your journey, your story, your life is the most important, awesome and epic thing. According to my timescale, my journey, my story, and my life are an insignficant blip except for the eternal impact.

BluHorseShu said:

---

Dies Irae said:

---

If God real why butthole feel good?

---

Huh? Did your account get hacked or was this a autocorrect thing?

---

It's a meme, it's the tenor of question you get from atheists who question God's existence using inanities

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

---

First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

---

So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

---

First, I believe that the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God! As such, God has said repeatedly that the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven is through the Son, Jesus Christ! The ONLY way!!
So, the Universalist view you are advocating goes totally against the Bible and God's Holy Word. Because, if there is a time where God calls ALL souls to Heaven, then that completely contradicts His Word. Your basically saying , "hey, there will be ANOTHER WAY one day.....God will just rescue you at some point and time and "allow" you in. Regardless if you were an unbeliever, Hindu, Muslim, etc.....you're good. Your argument is that an evil person who might have molested and murdered innocent children, or even Adolf Hitler, who had millions killed and tortured....that God will one day just say: "hey buddy, I think you've finally been through enough torment, so just come on up and join us in all the blessings of Heaven!" I'm sorry, I can't fathom that, nor find it Biblical! Matthew 25:41 says that lost souls will be cast into the eternal fire! Eternal is defined as "forever!" In conclusion, the doctrine you are advocating can be summed up by saying "you do not need to accept Jesus as your Savior during this life....as you will be allowed in Heaven one day anyway!" That seems unbiblical to me.

---

I agree Jesus is the only way.

What if He decides to save everyone as many Scriptures support? Scripture clearly states God desires all men to be saved, correct?

So the question becomes is man's free will strong enough to thwart the desires of Almighty God?

You are saying God does not get what he desires.

---

So you are saying that it was God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin since they did and clearly nothing can go against God's will?

Or more generically...God desires that you and I sin since we do...

---

I am just posing the question. And as far as I know, Adam and Eve did not go to ECT hell when they died.

The wages of sin are death. Not eternal torment.

Do you think Adam and Eve went to hell?

Seems like apples to oranges.

---

Lets start with you answer my question.

You seem to believe that God always gets what he desires.

So since Adam and Eve sinned, God must have desired for them to sin.


I'm not sure what your obsession for ECT hell is, but that's not the topic at the moment.

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

---

And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?

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First of all, thank you for the respectful dialogue.
All excellent questions for deeper thought! Of course, I have no answer. Although we serve a LOVING God....we also serve a "just" God!! That same "loving" God also destroyed all humans except Noah and family during the flood...wiped out cities of Sodham and Gomorrah ....HE helped his chosen people the Israelites lay waste to various tribes. He also says in no uncertain terms that if you do not accept Christ as your savior....you will be sent to eternal death!
In essence, I serve a loving God who blesses me daily even though I am severely unworthy!! And yet while I know He loves me unconditionally, I also have a healthy fear of Him as well....as .Psalms 33:8 says "let all the earth fear the Lord!"


Let me ask you....who created Hell, this place of eternal torment? Yes...that same "loving" but also "just" God!!

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So where was hell in the OT? Why did the Jews, God's chosen people, have no concept of it?

And in the verses you chose, God's wrath is not a place.

And destruction means cease to exist.

If you are going to support ECT hell the best verse is Matthew 25:46 because of the word eternal used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. Some debate on the choice of the Greek word, kolasis, which usually means pruning or a rehabilitative punishment, like a father for a child. Timoria is is the Greek word usually used for retributive punishment.

And there are a lot of Bible verses that support universal reconciliation. Most of which have been posted in this thread.

My two favorite are from Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Here is a link to many more

https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture

And I am not trying to change your mind. I am just stating my position based on Scripture. There is definitely Scripture that supports annihilationism and to a lesser extent, the Western theology of ECT hell.

And sure we are to fear God. But to me, that means respect and obey him. Much like a good father. And there will be consequences for sin and disobedience.

Think of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That is how a loving father acts.

And have you ever sat down and thought about eternal punishment? Like forever without end? That does not sound just to me and certainly does not fit the image of Jesus which was God Incarnate revealed to us.

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First, I believe that the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God! As such, God has said repeatedly that the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven is through the Son, Jesus Christ! The ONLY way!!
So, the Universalist view you are advocating goes totally against the Bible and God's Holy Word. Because, if there is a time where God calls ALL souls to Heaven, then that completely contradicts His Word. Your basically saying , "hey, there will be ANOTHER WAY one day.....God will just rescue you at some point and time and "allow" you in. Regardless if you were an unbeliever, Hindu, Muslim, etc.....you're good. Your argument is that an evil person who might have molested and murdered innocent children, or even Adolf Hitler, who had millions killed and tortured....that God will one day just say: "hey buddy, I think you've finally been through enough torment, so just come on up and join us in all the blessings of Heaven!" I'm sorry, I can't fathom that, nor find it Biblical! Matthew 25:41 says that lost souls will be cast into the eternal fire! Eternal is defined as "forever!" In conclusion, the doctrine you are advocating can be summed up by saying "you do not need to accept Jesus as your Savior during this life....as you will be allowed in Heaven one day anyway!" That seems unbiblical to me.

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I agree Jesus is the only way.

What if He decides to save everyone as many Scriptures support? Scripture clearly states God desires all men to be saved, correct?

So the question becomes is man's free will strong enough to thwart the desires of Almighty God?

You are saying God does not get what he desires.

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Those are valid points....although I do not concur. Of course God desires, meaning wants, all to accept the free gift of eternal life through his Son. However, he gave us the free will to choose, and a consequence for those who refuse Him, which is eternity in Hell.

Does not God desire that we all follow His ways and be more Christlike, and unfortunately the vast majority don't?

Earlier you mentioned how I could conceive that a loving God would make people spend eternity in Hell? Let me refer to the Bible for the answer (and to the answer about God's desires): Isaiah 55: 8-9 " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, declares the Lord. As the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts!" In other words.....God has his ways and it is not in our capacity to understand his ways!

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So people of their own free will choose eternal torment?