Nobody goes to "Hell" forever, in the end, ALL are with God!

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M1Buckeye
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7:47p, 5/29/23
But don't take my word for it. What does GOD say?

Luke 15:4 kjv
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

I can share a LOT more scripture that demonstrates that, in the end, ALL people will be with God.
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Zobel
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8:14p, 5/29/23
AG
you're conflating between all being saved from death and theosis / condemnation.
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M1Buckeye
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8:56p, 5/29/23
To the reader, do you belive that God's will can be thwarted? Do you believe that the "gates of Hell" will prevail and will prevent Jesus from saving ALL people, despite God's will that he do so?

John 6:39 esv
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Matthew 16:18 esv
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock[a] I will build my church, and the gates of hell[b] shall not prevail against it.
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Zobel
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9:05p, 5/29/23
AG
It is God's will that men are free.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Zobel • 9:23p, 5/29/23
Zobel said:
It is God's will that men are free.
Do you speak for God?
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Zobel
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9:31p, 5/29/23
AG
Non sequitur.

Man, what a waste of time.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Zobel • 9:34p, 5/29/23
Zobel said:
Non sequitur.

Man, what a waste of time.
I provide God's word. You provide your personal opinion. Paul warned us of people like you who spew false doctrines and that's why he told us to go to the Bible to test people's claims.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.
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M1Buckeye
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9:36p, 5/29/23
The reader can note that many people are married to their doctrinal views and cannot move from it, no matter how much scripture they're given. It's pride. They cannot fathom the possibility that their understanding of God and his word is not complete and infallible. Their pride blinds them. Again, that's why Paul told us to refer to the scriptures.

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M1Buckeye
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9:37p, 5/29/23
Here's another (and there are more).

Romans 5:18 esv
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

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M1Buckeye
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9:38p, 5/29/23
Does anybody here appreciate my sharing God's words on salvation for ALL men or should I stop?
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jrico2727
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10:51p, 5/29/23
AG
So if everyone is saved even the demons and satan, then why be good? Why spend time to know, love and serve God? Why follow any of the commandments? Why baptize? Why spread the gospel around the world? Why come on Texags and trash the Catholic Church and faith in multiple threads? If you're telling me it all ends the same for everyone. Although I am pretty sure Our Blessed Lord had mentioned something about sheep and goats, seems like they had different eternal fates. There appears to be a lack of consistency to this logic, it must be why it was condemned as heresy quiet some time ago. You may want to stop, it's up to you, but say hi to Origen for us either way.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to jrico2727 • 10:55p, 5/29/23
jrico2727 said:
So if everyone is saved even the demons and satan, then why be good? Why spend time to know, love and serve God? Why follow any of the commandments? Why baptize? Why spread the gospel around the world? Why come on Texags and trash the Catholic Church and faith in multiple threads? If you're telling me it all ends the same for everyone. Although I am pretty sure Our Blessed Lord had mentioned something about sheep and goats, seems like they had different eternal fates. There appears to be a lack of consistency to this logic, it must be why it was condemned as heresy quiet some time ago. You may want to stop, it's up to you, but say hi to Origen for us either way.


Your response is common. I provide scripture which you either ignore or reject and then call me a heretic.

Amazing.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to jrico2727 • 11:09p, 5/29/23
jrico2727 said:
So if everyone is saved even the demons and satan, then why be good?


You have a total lack of understanding. Why didn't the Catholic Church teach you?

Those who believe in Christ NEVER die but go to be with God in Heaven while awaiting Jesus's return and the resurrection. When Jesus returns their old bodies will be resurrected and transformed (1 Corinthians 15). Thereafter they will rule the Earth with Jesus until the last resurrection which precedes the Great White Throne Judgment. But before then, do you know where the wicked will be? DEAD in ground, knowing nothing. While faithful Christians enjoy the riches of Heaven and then rule on Earth with Jesus, they will be DEAD in the ground.

And at the Great White Throne Judgment the wicked will be judged and, apparently, many will be thrown into the "Lake of Fire", also referred to as the "second death" in the Bible. The Bible says they will be tormented and there will be "wailing and nashing of teeth".

Let's put it another way. Suppose I'm your dad and I tell you NOT to drive the car without my permission or there will be "Hell to pay". You would glean that I'm not going to KILL you but that I will make it so that you regret doing so.

Those of us who look to Christ purify ourselves and Jesus rewards us with eternal life, a comfortable transformation into a perfect body (as opposed to getting it through the Lake of Fire), millennial rule and no judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment. You want to be in that group, not the other.
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RAB91
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 11:18p, 5/29/23
M1Buckeye said:
jrico2727 said:
So if everyone is saved even the demons and satan, then why be good?


You have a total lack of understanding. Why didn't the Catholic Church teach you?

Who wants to tell him what church assembled and approved the bible?
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M1Buckeye
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11:19p, 5/29/23
If you dislike the fact that, in the end, ALL will be with God, then your problem isn't with me, it is with GOD.

Luke 3:6 esv
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to RAB91 • 11:29p, 5/29/23
RAB91 said:
M1Buckeye said:
jrico2727 said:
So if everyone is saved even the demons and satan, then why be good?


You have a total lack of understanding. Why didn't the Catholic Church teach you?

Who wants to tell him what church assembled and approved the bible?


Does God get any credit, honor, and glory for guiding men to compile the scriptures into one book or (as usual) do you award all of those things to the Pope?
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jrico2727
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 11:39p, 5/29/23
AG
The church does teach us that at the end there will be the last four things. Death, judgement, heaven or hell. This is what was taught before the Catholic Church determined which writings were to be scripture. This is the teaching in scripture. You're view is based on a misinterpretion, either your own or one you allowed to be taught to you. Your interpretation isn't new and was condemned in the 4th century.
Some people go to hard on hell and brimstone and forget God's mercy, others go all in on universalism and forget God's justice. For his mercy and justice is perfect and beyond our reason, but he is both Merciful and just. That is why you've struggled to answer about Judas'fate. Certainly the Lord doesn't paint a rosey picture about his future in scripture. Your best explanation was hyperbole on his part, but where he was clearly being hyperbolic when saying call no man father, that has to be taken literally, because of meh the pope. This is why it's a blessing as a Catholic to have a 2 thousand years of Church teaching, Church fathers who many lived and learned from the apostles, the Bishops in union with the Holy Father to give us what was handed down to them, which is the full apostolic faith.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to jrico2727 • 11:46p, 5/29/23
jrico2727 said:
You're view is based on a misinterpretion, either your own or one you allowed to be taught to you. Your interpretation isn't new...


Please go through each of the verses that I have shared and, using scripture, please show me how I "misinterpreted" said scriptures.

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M1Buckeye
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11:52p, 5/29/23
Again, the responses here are typical.

Write dissertations in "response" with ZERO scripture and accuse the other, who provided a PLETHORA of scripture, a heretic.

Years ago I questioned some of the doctrines that I had been taught. I opened the Bible and decided that I would go whereever the Bible takes me.

Most people, however, are cemented to a doctrine that they learned long ago and will not, no matter what the Bible tells them, budge from their doctrine.

So be it. I hope the good news of Jesus reaches many spiritually thirsty souls.
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Zobel
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8:24a, 5/30/23
AG
the first issue is this - all Christian denominations accept the same body of scripture with few exceptions around the margins. quoting scripture is not in and of itself some kind of proof of anything, as the people you are talking to also accept that scripture as authoritative and true. the issue is in the application or interpretation of that scripture.

the other issue is how you use the scripture to interpret. grabbing a sentence here and there is to stitch together a narrative from books written in different centuries is misleading and does violence to the text. the verse from 2 Sam 14 you keep quoting is a great example - the woman from Tekoa is presented in the scripture as something between a liar and and an actor, a political operative working under the direction of King David's "fixer" Joab to manipulate the king, and this is where the sentence is spoken. this is hardly a grand theological statement that we can file away with the sayings of Christ.

the next is that you are inconsistent in your handling of the text. when convenient, you require strict literalism; when inconvenient you allow for hyperbole. when you need a phrase to mean "eternal" it does; when not, it doesn't.

but the most difficult is that you don't actually engage in discussion. you throw up scripture, and when people engage with you you accuse them of either disagreeing with God or speaking for God (the irony is amusing) or disagreeing with the scripture or being cemented to doctrine as if this is somehow different than what you're doing. the rest can be worked through.

anyway - have fun.


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M1Buckeye
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In reply to Zobel • 8:45a, 5/30/23
Zobel said:
the first issue is this - all Christian denominations accept the same body of scripture with few exceptions around the margins. quoting scripture is not in and of itself some kind of proof of anything, as the people you are talking to also accept that scripture as authoritative and true. the issue is in the application or interpretation of that scripture.

the other issue is how you use the scripture to interpret. grabbing a sentence here and there is to stitch together a narrative from books written in different centuries is misleading and does violence to the text. the verse from 2 Sam 14 you keep quoting is a great example - the woman from Tekoa is presented in the scripture as something between a liar and and an actor, a political operative working under the direction of King David's "fixer" Joab to manipulate the king, and this is where the sentence is spoken. this is hardly a grand theological statement that we can file away with the sayings of Christ.

the next is that you are inconsistent in your handling of the text. when convenient, you require strict literalism; when inconvenient you allow for hyperbole. when you need a phrase to mean "eternal" it does; when not, it doesn't.

but the most difficult is that you don't actually engage in discussion. you throw up scripture, and when people engage with you you accuse them of either disagreeing with God or speaking for God (the irony is amusing) or disagreeing with the scripture or being cemented to doctrine as if this is somehow different than what you're doing. the rest can be worked through.

anyway - have fun.




Another boring monologue with only your personal opinions and ZERO scripture. Yawn.

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Zobel
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 8:52a, 5/30/23
AG
avoid foolish controversies, genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the Law for they are pointless and worthless. reject a factious man after a first and second counsel, knowing that such a man is corrupt and is sinning, being self-condemned.
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M1Buckeye
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9:18a, 5/30/23
Here's another. Through Christ God "WAS" (past tense) "reconciling the WORLD" to himself and not counting their trespasses against them. It's done. Jesus said on the cross "It is finished".

All will be with God in the end because that is his will!

2 Corinthians 5:19 esv
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
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M1Buckeye
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9:28a, 5/30/23
Paul warned about false teachers coming into the church and teaching false doctrines.

Acts 20: 29-30 esv
29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

The doctrine of eternal torment and separation from God is counter to what Paul and everyone else in the Bible taught. It is NOT of God but of Satan, which a couple of very boisterous posters here loudly parrot.

You know them by their fruits.
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M1Buckeye
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11:08a, 5/30/23
There's a reason that some here preach a gospel that is different than what Paul preached.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 esv
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
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jrico2727
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12:13p, 5/30/23
AG
A whole lot of projection going on here. Considering the unorthodoxy of your views I would tread lightly on your condemnations. After all as Our Lord says For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

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M1Buckeye
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12:35p, 5/30/23
I will do you all the favor of refraining from any further sharing of God's words. It's abundantly clear to me that they're unwelcome and that only doctrine spewed by the Pope and the Catechism is accepted.
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dermdoc
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In reply to jrico2727 • 12:47p, 5/30/23
AG
jrico2727 said:
A whole lot of projection going on here. Considering the unorthodoxy of your views I would tread lightly on your condemnations. After all as Our Lord says For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.



Just curious, does the Catholic Church consider St. Gregory of Nyssa a saint and orthodox? He believed in universal reconciliation.

And I am not trying to change anyone's views. Just saying it is not the heresy that is being claimed on here.

You might Google "Does the Catholic Church consider Christian Universalism a heresy?"

There is a broad range of views by Catholic theologians.

And not trying to be argumentative, just learning.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Dies Irae
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:05p, 5/30/23
dermdoc said:
jrico2727 said:
A whole lot of projection going on here. Considering the unorthodoxy of your views I would tread lightly on your condemnations. After all as Our Lord says For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.



Just curious, does the Catholic Church consider St. Gregory of Nyssa a saint and orthodox? He believed in universal reconciliation.

And I am not trying to change anyone's views. Just saying it is not the heresy that is being claimed on here.

You might Google "Does the Catholic Church consider Christian Universalism a heresy?"

There is a broad range of views by Catholic theologians.

And not trying to be argumentative, just learning.
The Catholic Church is fairly "closed" on the subject, but as Bishop Robert Barron says "Dare we to hope". There are some great Orthodox theologians who say something to the extent that whoever doesn't hope for universal salvation is evil, but whoever banks on it is a fool; or something to that extent.

Saint Gregory predates the East-West schism so is venerated by both Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic church.
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dermdoc
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1:07p, 5/30/23
AG
Here is a good discussion from the Orthodox viewpoint.

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/12108/universalism-in-the-orthodox-church
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Dies Irae
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1:15p, 5/30/23
I always feel bad for Origen, the dude was there at the very beginning and was thinking deep thoughts bereft of the magisterium that had really yet to form completely. It wasn't his fault he was a heretic.
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jrico2727
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:23p, 5/30/23
AG
He is a canonized Saint. Also there appears to be some scholarly debate if he argued for universal salvation or a universal resurrection. He does seem to be influenced by Origin. I wouldn't dare to claim enough to call him unorthodox, but just because he is a saint it doesn't mean that they got everything right. I understand the the hope for universal salvation. I know we have had our differences in the past on this matter. I do like the quote that it is okay to hope for universal salvation just don't count on it. As a sinner I do realize I will never deserve paradise on my own merit and that I can only depend on the mercy of Christ. I however will not challenge his justice either, or call it unmerciful. We will receive one or the other in the end. I am glad I will not have to be the one making the call.
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UTExan
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 1:34p, 5/30/23
M1Buckeye said:
Does anybody here appreciate my sharing God's words on salvation for ALL men or should I stop?


Some people have the spiritual gift of teaching. Maybe your gift is another of the spiritual gifts, such as evangelism or encouragement.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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Zobel
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:44p, 5/30/23
AG
I don't think St Gregory went as far as to affirm without a doubt all are saved. St Maximos is also a form of universalism.

Like I said, the universalism of Origen in general wasn't so much the issue as the pre-existence of souls and the other arguments in particular.

The irony of the situation with the OP is that I am on the side of we don't know / we must pray for the salvation of all.
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jrico2727
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In reply to Zobel • 1:52p, 5/30/23
AG
Zobel said:
we must pray for the salvation of all.


This is the best, most valuable thing said on this thread.
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