AggieRain said:

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If individualism is derivative, please sign me up!

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AggieRain said:

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Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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One of the lead authors of the 14th Amendment believed it applied the first 8 amendments to the states and local governments. Incorporation was held up because of a conservative reaction against civil rights for freed slaves leading to Jim Crow and because of an extreme pro-business climate in the Supreme Court from the 1880s through the 1920s, though judicial incorporation began in fits and starts in the late nineteenth century. So it's inaccurate to claim that incorporation of the establishment clause was some novel idea that arose in the mid-20th century.

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And was that guy a liberal?

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For 1867, yes. And his amendment with the language protecting individual rights was adopted into the US Constitution.

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Do you ever read anything other than liberal sources?

Like Thomas Sowell?

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Thomas Sowell? That's your idea of a historian? I read people working with primary sources and engaged with the historiography in the field. I'm not interested in what political polemicists have to say because at the end of the day they aren't interested in the history, they're interested in creating a narrative they can use to justify their claims in the present. Sowell is a perfect example of ideology bulldozing over nuance and what the record says.

No, I haven't read Sowell in years, just like I haven't read Chomsky or Zinn in years.

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Sowell is brilliant but OK…what are your alternative sources?

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Sowell argues for personal responsibility. Sapper for reparations. No, Sapper will seek to discredit rather than than affirm Sowell. Common sense is an antiseptic not all can accept.

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Yeah, that's what it is. You got me.

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Well Sowell is for personal responsibility.

Are you for reparations?

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AggieRain said:

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Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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One of the lead authors of the 14th Amendment believed it applied the first 8 amendments to the states and local governments. Incorporation was held up because of a conservative reaction against civil rights for freed slaves leading to Jim Crow and because of an extreme pro-business climate in the Supreme Court from the 1880s through the 1920s, though judicial incorporation began in fits and starts in the late nineteenth century. So it's inaccurate to claim that incorporation of the establishment clause was some novel idea that arose in the mid-20th century.

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And was that guy a liberal?

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For 1867, yes. And his amendment with the language protecting individual rights was adopted into the US Constitution.

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Do you ever read anything other than liberal sources?

Like Thomas Sowell?

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Thomas Sowell? That's your idea of a historian? I read people working with primary sources and engaged with the historiography in the field. I'm not interested in what political polemicists have to say because at the end of the day they aren't interested in the history, they're interested in creating a narrative they can use to justify their claims in the present. Sowell is a perfect example of ideology bulldozing over nuance and what the record says.

No, I haven't read Sowell in years, just like I haven't read Chomsky or Zinn in years.

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Sowell is brilliant but OK…what are your alternative sources?

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Sowell argues for personal responsibility. Sapper for reparations. No, Sapper will seek to discredit rather than than affirm Sowell. Common sense is an antiseptic not all can accept.

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Yeah, that's what it is. You got me.

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Well Sowell is for personal responsibility.

Are you for reparations?

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Sowell denies systemic discrimination and racism that limits the impact "personal responsibility" can have on a macro scale. I'm not against either. Pretending it's either-or is just lazy political posturing.

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Are you for reparations?

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AggieRain said:

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Serotonin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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One of the lead authors of the 14th Amendment believed it applied the first 8 amendments to the states and local governments. Incorporation was held up because of a conservative reaction against civil rights for freed slaves leading to Jim Crow and because of an extreme pro-business climate in the Supreme Court from the 1880s through the 1920s, though judicial incorporation began in fits and starts in the late nineteenth century. So it's inaccurate to claim that incorporation of the establishment clause was some novel idea that arose in the mid-20th century.

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And was that guy a liberal?

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For 1867, yes. And his amendment with the language protecting individual rights was adopted into the US Constitution.

---

Do you ever read anything other than liberal sources?

Like Thomas Sowell?

---

Thomas Sowell? That's your idea of a historian? I read people working with primary sources and engaged with the historiography in the field. I'm not interested in what political polemicists have to say because at the end of the day they aren't interested in the history, they're interested in creating a narrative they can use to justify their claims in the present. Sowell is a perfect example of ideology bulldozing over nuance and what the record says.

No, I haven't read Sowell in years, just like I haven't read Chomsky or Zinn in years.

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Sowell is brilliant but OK…what are your alternative sources?

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Sowell argues for personal responsibility. Sapper for reparations. No, Sapper will seek to discredit rather than than affirm Sowell. Common sense is an antiseptic not all can accept.

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Yeah, that's what it is. You got me.

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Well Sowell is for personal responsibility.

Are you for reparations?

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Sowell denies systemic discrimination and racism that limits the impact "personal responsibility" can have on a macro scale. I'm not against either. Pretending it's either-or is just lazy political posturing.

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Are you for reparations?

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Depends. Sorry, mate, I'm not interested in sound bites. There can be a place for some kind of program to work past systemic racism where it still affects people. What that looks like is not something I'm equipped to answer right now. If you consider that reparations, then the answer is yes.

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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AggieRain said:

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If individualism is derivative, please sign me up!

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Agree.

And maybe I am cynical, but I believe every serious historian or legal interpreter of the general welfare clause and/or the 14th Amendment has a political bias.

Both items have been exponentially expanded by liberals over what the original intent was.

I think that is really hard to dispute.

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The original intent was to preserve and protect the citizenship and individual rights and liberties of the newly freed slaves from rapacious persecution by the ex-Confederate states. The authors were quite aware of how revolutionary the amendment was and passed numerous laws at the same time to prevent segregation and violence against the freed slaves.

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dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The logic behind those decisions is in the text. That a person in 1868 can't see the full scope of the logic of their position does not mean we default to the understanding in 1868.

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Disagree. Law is law. There is no "living" Constitution.

And you are basically agreeing with me that you only consider liberal interpretations?

Which is fine. I will admit my bias.

Will you do the same?

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Aggrad08 said:

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Reparations can come in various forms, from direct large financial payments to slave descendants to programs to help poor black communities. Some even view affirmative action as reparations.

I think throwing the word around without a context is silly F16 nonsense. Like accusing someone of being a socialist for believing in government funded education like Texas A&M

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Serotonin said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Reparations can come in various forms, from direct large financial payments to slave descendants to programs to help poor black communities. Some even view affirmative action as reparations.

I think throwing the word around without a context is silly F16 nonsense. Like accusing someone of being a socialist for believing in government funded education like Texas A&M

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I think Derm is probably just referring to the colloquial definition in today's political context which would be a large financial payment.

Ultimately if we deconstruct every phrase and concept we can't really say anything about anything because everything is fluid.

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Macarthur said:

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Serotonin said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Reparations can come in various forms, from direct large financial payments to slave descendants to programs to help poor black communities. Some even view affirmative action as reparations.

I think throwing the word around without a context is silly F16 nonsense. Like accusing someone of being a socialist for believing in government funded education like Texas A&M

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I think Derm is probably just referring to the colloquial definition in today's political context which would be a large financial payment.

Ultimately if we deconstruct every phrase and concept we can't really say anything about anything because everything is fluid.

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Disagree 1000%. That's what sorely lacking in our discourse right now. Thoughtful nuance. The fact that everything has be about an absolute on one end or the other is toxic.

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Serotonin said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Reparations can come in various forms, from direct large financial payments to slave descendants to programs to help poor black communities. Some even view affirmative action as reparations.

I think throwing the word around without a context is silly F16 nonsense. Like accusing someone of being a socialist for believing in government funded education like Texas A&M

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I think Derm is probably just referring to the colloquial definition in today's political context which would be a large financial payment.

Ultimately if we deconstruct every phrase and concept we can't really say anything about anything because everything is fluid.

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dermdoc said:

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May I ask what reparations sapper supports?

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Quote:

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Quote:

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dermdoc said:


Are you for reparations?

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Sapper said:

Depends. Sorry, mate, I'm not interested in sound bites. There can be a place for some kind of program to work past systemic racism where it still affects people. What that looks like is not something I'm equipped to answer right now. If you consider that reparations, then the answer is yes.

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