The Lord had mercy on this country

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dermdoc
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 12:47p, 6/30/22
AG
larry culpepper said:
AGC said:
larry culpepper said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
Sapper Redux said:
Zobel said:
I reject the entire premise of your argument, why would I bother answering? People are open to discuss exceptions for the exceptions.

Pro-abortion people on this thread won't talk about anything except the fact that because the exceptions exist and cover "thousands" we can't even begin to deal with the 600,000+ that were happening every year.


I'm asking if under your new antiabortion regime if women who are capable of bearing children should be denied certain treatments and drugs that would harm any potential fetus. You're ignoring that. Also, you're demanding I accept that a zygote is the same as an adult human. It isn't.

I'm losing my mind.

No one has or was or will be asking for that.
No one is telling women of child bearing age to stop drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, eating tuna either.


If you are doing things that might get you pregnant, you should be hyper aware of whether or not you are pregnant. It is not that expensive to pee on a stick every once in a while and if you do something irresponsible Plan B is still legal in all 50 states.

The law in Missouri is poorly written, but in no way is anyone going to actually get in trouble for removing an ectopic pregnancy. In fact, they had wording that was ectopic pregnancy related and removed it because it was stupid.



The wording from the Attorney General's letter has caused a lot of problems for ED and OBGYN docs in Missouri. Sorry you want to think it's cut and dry, but it really, really isn't. And based on the definitions used by people like Zobel and Derm, Plan B is an abortion that kills a human with full rights. We're already seeing states make moves to make things like Plan B illegal.
If it is not cut and dry, that is the fault of the states as it is their responsibility now. If the people of Missouri or any other state want to change the laws, they can vote for people who will do so.

Wonderful concept envisioned by the Founders and the Constitution.
Right, and in any competently run country, the judiciary strikes down laws that are gross violations of privacy rights and personal freedom.

But otherwise I agree. I hope the country wakes up and stops voting for these cruel *******s who truly do not give the slightest **** about the well being of anyone other than themselves. I never thought I would see a bunch of wealthy men who have never had to go through a rape, pregnancy, or raising a kid on minimum wage, look at us in the eye and say that 8 year olds who are violently raped must be forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth.

In any decent country that would immediately disqualify you from office. In America it gets you more votes.


You're still running through the same tired arguments of a right to privacy (doesn't exist), personal freedom (unbounded), it's all men doing this (no women support and vote for these politicians), and the violent rape of children (as if their lives improve with abortion, or the other 99% are worth the one).

You need to get off the internet man. It will do loads of good for your mental well-being. We
I dont think even you believe a right to privacy doesn't exist. Or you do believe so, just that it doesn't equally apply to everyone in all situations. And I'm talking beyond abortion here. I'm also talking about abortion pills, plan B, other contraceptives. Everything is on the chopping block and some of it has already been attacked.

No, I won't stop talking about the violent rape of children just because you want to conveniently ignore it. The people you voted for put these laws in place, so you get to face them head on.
It does not matter what you or I "believe".

What matters is the rule of law and the Constitution.

Why do you continue to make it something it is not?

And the voters of each state will vote for people that reflect their views, correct?

Are you against that? And on what legal geounds?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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AGC
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 12:48p, 6/30/22
AG
larry culpepper said:
AGC said:
larry culpepper said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
Sapper Redux said:
Zobel said:
I reject the entire premise of your argument, why would I bother answering? People are open to discuss exceptions for the exceptions.

Pro-abortion people on this thread won't talk about anything except the fact that because the exceptions exist and cover "thousands" we can't even begin to deal with the 600,000+ that were happening every year.


I'm asking if under your new antiabortion regime if women who are capable of bearing children should be denied certain treatments and drugs that would harm any potential fetus. You're ignoring that. Also, you're demanding I accept that a zygote is the same as an adult human. It isn't.

I'm losing my mind.

No one has or was or will be asking for that.
No one is telling women of child bearing age to stop drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, eating tuna either.


If you are doing things that might get you pregnant, you should be hyper aware of whether or not you are pregnant. It is not that expensive to pee on a stick every once in a while and if you do something irresponsible Plan B is still legal in all 50 states.

The law in Missouri is poorly written, but in no way is anyone going to actually get in trouble for removing an ectopic pregnancy. In fact, they had wording that was ectopic pregnancy related and removed it because it was stupid.



The wording from the Attorney General's letter has caused a lot of problems for ED and OBGYN docs in Missouri. Sorry you want to think it's cut and dry, but it really, really isn't. And based on the definitions used by people like Zobel and Derm, Plan B is an abortion that kills a human with full rights. We're already seeing states make moves to make things like Plan B illegal.
If it is not cut and dry, that is the fault of the states as it is their responsibility now. If the people of Missouri or any other state want to change the laws, they can vote for people who will do so.

Wonderful concept envisioned by the Founders and the Constitution.
Right, and in any competently run country, the judiciary strikes down laws that are gross violations of privacy rights and personal freedom.

But otherwise I agree. I hope the country wakes up and stops voting for these cruel *******s who truly do not give the slightest **** about the well being of anyone other than themselves. I never thought I would see a bunch of wealthy men who have never had to go through a rape, pregnancy, or raising a kid on minimum wage, look at us in the eye and say that 8 year olds who are violently raped must be forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth.

In any decent country that would immediately disqualify you from office. In America it gets you more votes.


You're still running through the same tired arguments of a right to privacy (doesn't exist), personal freedom (unbounded), it's all men doing this (no women support and vote for these politicians), and the violent rape of children (as if their lives improve with abortion, or the other 99% are worth the one).

You need to get off the internet man. It will do loads of good for your mental well-being. We
I dont think even you believe a right to privacy doesn't exist. Or you do believe so, just that it doesn't equally apply to everyone in all situations. And I'm talking beyond abortion here. I'm also talking about abortion pills, plan B, other contraceptives. Everything is on the chopping block and some of it has already been attacked.

No, I won't stop talking about the violent rape of children just because you want to conveniently ignore it. The people you voted for put these laws in place, so you get to face them head on.


How the hell do you think I'm ignoring the rape of children? I post all the time about my work with anti-trafficking orgs. All you do is just post on the internet about it.

Please define the right to privacy and tell me where it comes from. I'll hold.
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to AGC • 12:58p, 6/30/22
AG
AGC said:
larry culpepper said:
AGC said:
larry culpepper said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
Sapper Redux said:
Zobel said:
I reject the entire premise of your argument, why would I bother answering? People are open to discuss exceptions for the exceptions.

Pro-abortion people on this thread won't talk about anything except the fact that because the exceptions exist and cover "thousands" we can't even begin to deal with the 600,000+ that were happening every year.


I'm asking if under your new antiabortion regime if women who are capable of bearing children should be denied certain treatments and drugs that would harm any potential fetus. You're ignoring that. Also, you're demanding I accept that a zygote is the same as an adult human. It isn't.

I'm losing my mind.

No one has or was or will be asking for that.
No one is telling women of child bearing age to stop drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, eating tuna either.


If you are doing things that might get you pregnant, you should be hyper aware of whether or not you are pregnant. It is not that expensive to pee on a stick every once in a while and if you do something irresponsible Plan B is still legal in all 50 states.

The law in Missouri is poorly written, but in no way is anyone going to actually get in trouble for removing an ectopic pregnancy. In fact, they had wording that was ectopic pregnancy related and removed it because it was stupid.



The wording from the Attorney General's letter has caused a lot of problems for ED and OBGYN docs in Missouri. Sorry you want to think it's cut and dry, but it really, really isn't. And based on the definitions used by people like Zobel and Derm, Plan B is an abortion that kills a human with full rights. We're already seeing states make moves to make things like Plan B illegal.
If it is not cut and dry, that is the fault of the states as it is their responsibility now. If the people of Missouri or any other state want to change the laws, they can vote for people who will do so.

Wonderful concept envisioned by the Founders and the Constitution.
Right, and in any competently run country, the judiciary strikes down laws that are gross violations of privacy rights and personal freedom.

But otherwise I agree. I hope the country wakes up and stops voting for these cruel *******s who truly do not give the slightest **** about the well being of anyone other than themselves. I never thought I would see a bunch of wealthy men who have never had to go through a rape, pregnancy, or raising a kid on minimum wage, look at us in the eye and say that 8 year olds who are violently raped must be forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth.

In any decent country that would immediately disqualify you from office. In America it gets you more votes.


You're still running through the same tired arguments of a right to privacy (doesn't exist), personal freedom (unbounded), it's all men doing this (no women support and vote for these politicians), and the violent rape of children (as if their lives improve with abortion, or the other 99% are worth the one).

You need to get off the internet man. It will do loads of good for your mental well-being. We
I dont think even you believe a right to privacy doesn't exist. Or you do believe so, just that it doesn't equally apply to everyone in all situations. And I'm talking beyond abortion here. I'm also talking about abortion pills, plan B, other contraceptives. Everything is on the chopping block and some of it has already been attacked.

No, I won't stop talking about the violent rape of children just because you want to conveniently ignore it. The people you voted for put these laws in place, so you get to face them head on.


How the hell do you think I'm ignoring the rape of children? I post all the time about my work with anti-trafficking orgs. All you do is just post on the internet about it.

Please define the right to privacy and tell me where it comes from. I'll hold.
because every time I bring up no rape exception you and others deflect and act like it doesnt matter bEcAuSe ItS RaRe!!111

the right to privacy isn't an enumerated right in the Constitution. But your problem and the problem with all conservatives is you stop there and call it a day. You dont unpack the text of the Constitution and understand that there is such a thing as an unenumerated right. Read the Ninth Amendment. The text of the Constitution clearly endorses privacy rights with the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments. And you yourself believe we have privacy rights. Everyone does.

The Constitution also doesn't mention your right to pick your profession, have sex with your wife, when to give your kids "the talk," or to go on vacation to Hawaii this summer. It's completely asinine to say that because it's not explicitly stated, there's no right to it. It's such simple minded thinking.

Read the Griswold opinion. Couples have a privacy right to use contraceptives without government interference. Though I know this decision is now on the chopping block too, based on Clarence Thomas's opinion. In his mind we should gut rights to contraceptives, gay sex, and gay marriage, because there's no right to privacy. But we shouldn't revisit interracial marriage, because that would infringe in his privacy rights. Yeah, ok.

Again I reiterate, YOU believe in privacy rights. You would not be okay with the government making an unannounced visit to your home, following you to work, or restricting things you do in your private daily life. You just beleive these rights don't extend to people doing things you disagree with, which basically sums up conservatism in the United States in 2022.
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barbacoa taco
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1:08p, 6/30/22
AG
This is my problem with conservatism, and particularly Christian conservatism. It's all ME ME ME ME ME. MY RIGHTS. They cannot wrap their head around the idea that there are other people they share a country with. People with different beliefs, different life experiences, different incomes, different backgrounds, different hardships. They just think "this works for me and you will go with it whether you like it or not." No empathy, no understanding at all.

And the events of this past month alone are a very stark reminder of how bad things can get when this group of people gets their way. They govern for themselves and themselves alone. They want you to obey and not question anything.
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Dilettante
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 1:18p, 6/30/22
I don't understand your post. Abortion is certainly not the type of issue you're describing. The pro-life position on abortion is purely a compassionate one, and the pro-choice people are the ones concerned about their alleged rights.
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AGC
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 1:23p, 6/30/22
AG
larry culpepper said:
AGC said:
larry culpepper said:
AGC said:
larry culpepper said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
Sapper Redux said:
Zobel said:
I reject the entire premise of your argument, why would I bother answering? People are open to discuss exceptions for the exceptions.

Pro-abortion people on this thread won't talk about anything except the fact that because the exceptions exist and cover "thousands" we can't even begin to deal with the 600,000+ that were happening every year.


I'm asking if under your new antiabortion regime if women who are capable of bearing children should be denied certain treatments and drugs that would harm any potential fetus. You're ignoring that. Also, you're demanding I accept that a zygote is the same as an adult human. It isn't.

I'm losing my mind.

No one has or was or will be asking for that.
No one is telling women of child bearing age to stop drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, eating tuna either.


If you are doing things that might get you pregnant, you should be hyper aware of whether or not you are pregnant. It is not that expensive to pee on a stick every once in a while and if you do something irresponsible Plan B is still legal in all 50 states.

The law in Missouri is poorly written, but in no way is anyone going to actually get in trouble for removing an ectopic pregnancy. In fact, they had wording that was ectopic pregnancy related and removed it because it was stupid.



The wording from the Attorney General's letter has caused a lot of problems for ED and OBGYN docs in Missouri. Sorry you want to think it's cut and dry, but it really, really isn't. And based on the definitions used by people like Zobel and Derm, Plan B is an abortion that kills a human with full rights. We're already seeing states make moves to make things like Plan B illegal.
If it is not cut and dry, that is the fault of the states as it is their responsibility now. If the people of Missouri or any other state want to change the laws, they can vote for people who will do so.

Wonderful concept envisioned by the Founders and the Constitution.
Right, and in any competently run country, the judiciary strikes down laws that are gross violations of privacy rights and personal freedom.

But otherwise I agree. I hope the country wakes up and stops voting for these cruel *******s who truly do not give the slightest **** about the well being of anyone other than themselves. I never thought I would see a bunch of wealthy men who have never had to go through a rape, pregnancy, or raising a kid on minimum wage, look at us in the eye and say that 8 year olds who are violently raped must be forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth.

In any decent country that would immediately disqualify you from office. In America it gets you more votes.


You're still running through the same tired arguments of a right to privacy (doesn't exist), personal freedom (unbounded), it's all men doing this (no women support and vote for these politicians), and the violent rape of children (as if their lives improve with abortion, or the other 99% are worth the one).

You need to get off the internet man. It will do loads of good for your mental well-being. We
I dont think even you believe a right to privacy doesn't exist. Or you do believe so, just that it doesn't equally apply to everyone in all situations. And I'm talking beyond abortion here. I'm also talking about abortion pills, plan B, other contraceptives. Everything is on the chopping block and some of it has already been attacked.

No, I won't stop talking about the violent rape of children just because you want to conveniently ignore it. The people you voted for put these laws in place, so you get to face them head on.


How the hell do you think I'm ignoring the rape of children? I post all the time about my work with anti-trafficking orgs. All you do is just post on the internet about it.

Please define the right to privacy and tell me where it comes from. I'll hold.
because every time I bring up no rape exception you and others deflect and act like it doesnt matter bEcAuSe ItS RaRe!!111

the right to privacy isn't an enumerated right in the Constitution. But your problem and the problem with all conservatives is you stop there and call it a day. You dont unpack the text of the Constitution and understand that there is such a thing as an unenumerated right. Read the Ninth Amendment. The text of the Constitution clearly endorses privacy rights with the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments. And you yourself believe we have privacy rights. Everyone does.

The Constitution also doesn't mention your right to pick your profession, have sex with your wife, when to give your kids "the talk," or to go on vacation to Hawaii this summer. It's completely asinine to say that because it's not explicitly stated, there's no right to it. It's such simple minded thinking.

Read the Griswold opinion. Couples have a privacy right to use contraceptives without government interference. Though I know this decision is now on the chopping block too, based on Clarence Thomas's opinion. In his mind we should gut rights to contraceptives, gay sex, and gay marriage, because there's no right to privacy. But we shouldn't revisit interracial marriage, because that would infringe in his privacy rights. Yeah, ok.

Again I reiterate, YOU believe in privacy rights. You would not be okay with the government making an unannounced visit to your home, following you to work, or restricting things you do in your private daily life. You just beleive these rights don't extend to people doing things you disagree with, which basically sums up conservatism in the United States in 2022.


The whole point was that I'm actively fighting against minors being raped while all you do is white knight on texags. For all your whining you simply want someone else, somewhere else, to do something else about this injustice. I'm here doing it and you're not so please save your fake outrage.
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Serotonin
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 1:26p, 6/30/22
AG
Quote:
It's all ME ME ME ME ME. MY RIGHTS.
Which side of the abortion debate are we talking about?
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to AGC • 1:37p, 6/30/22
AG
I'm literally responding to your points and questions you posed, and you respond with a condescending, holier-than-thou comment. Are you even interested in this discussion?

I have no idea what kind of work you do but thanks for your service I guess? You also vote for people and support the notion that minor rape victims should be forced to undergo the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth, so forgive me for not being very moved by you patting yourself on the back.
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to Serotonin • 1:38p, 6/30/22
AG
Serotonin said:
Quote:
It's all ME ME ME ME ME. MY RIGHTS.
Which side of the abortion debate are we talking about?
I should clarify. I'm talking about the American right as a whole. They govern for themselves and themselves alone. Small government for me, big government for you. Obey, or else.
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nortex97
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1:48p, 6/30/22
AG
It is really funny and sad both, to me, to see how livid/angry the left is that some states won't be forced to tolerate killing babies without restriction any longer.

It all takes the tone of 'how dare you judge/oppose anyone for supporting infanticide as an inalienable human right the founding fathers put in the US constitution?'
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diehard03
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In reply to nortex97 • 1:56p, 6/30/22
it shouldn't be. They don't believe its infanticide and they don't think they are killing babies. Making baby killing statements misses the point entirely.
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AGC
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 1:56p, 6/30/22
AG
larry culpepper said:
I'm literally responding to your points and questions you posed, and you respond with a condescending, holier-than-thou comment. Are you even interested in this discussion?

I have no idea what kind of work you do but thanks for your service I guess? You also vote for people and support the notion that minor rape victims should be forced to undergo the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth, so forgive me for not being very moved by you patting yourself on the back.


Abortion keeps these girls in bondage; it doesn't free them from it. They can be (and are) pimped out and abused for much longer because of abortion access . It's a shell game you're playing, a Pyrrhic victory.

It's also incredibly myopic and disingenuous to argue that all other abortions should be permitted. The truly caring person would head to the statehouse right now to write a law to protect these girls, not sit around arguing online about how we need 99 more abortions to protect the one.
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In reply to diehard03 • 1:59p, 6/30/22
AG
diehard03 said:
it shouldn't be. They don't believe its infanticide and they don't think they are killing babies. Making baby killing statements misses the point entirely.


Agreed, it should be scary that so many people consider being human a social construct. I did nazi that coming.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 2:09p, 6/30/22
AG
larry culpepper said:
I'm literally responding to your points and questions you posed, and you respond with a condescending, holier-than-thou comment. Are you even interested in this discussion?

I have no idea what kind of work you do but thanks for your service I guess? You also vote for people and support the notion that minor rape victims should be forced to undergo the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth, so forgive me for not being very moved by you patting yourself on the back.
Wait, someone rapes a girl and you're mad at an invisible swath of conservatives instead of the rapist? Your anger is misplaced. You bemoan the rape victim having to go through the trauma of pregnancy (which is an absolutely terrible situation), but not the trauma of an abortion?

How much plan B would you require to be made available until you think an average person could rush to take some after being raped? Would you say, once it hits every street corner store?

If someone is actually going to go to jail for rape, the timeline to go to the hospital and the police is equally urgent.

Seems like a way to address your 1% is to ensure that plan B is readily available, prescription free, no questions asked (which it is). And if the intervention can't be made in that timeline, to require a police report at the very least.

Seems like both technology and the law can assuage your 1% significantly.
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nortex97
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In reply to diehard03 • 2:18p, 6/30/22
AG
diehard03 said:
it shouldn't be. They don't believe its infanticide and they don't think they are killing babies. Making baby killing statements misses the point entirely.
Killing babies is the entire point, which you evidently missed.

I don't agree to play by other people's verbal/rhetorical gymnastic rules, whether it is special pronouns or make believe gender speech/worlds etc. Killing kids is morally wrong; further, it's unjustified, disgusting, not in/protected by the US constitution, and there's no reason to tap dance around that for someone else's obtuse sensibilities, especially now.

As stated above, if people don't like their states criminal laws, they can vote for people to in office to change them, or move.
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diehard03
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In reply to nortex97 • 2:26p, 6/30/22
Quote:
Killing kids is morally wrong; further, it's unjustified, disgusting, not in/protected by the US constitution, and there's no reason to tap dance around that for someone else's obtuse sensibilities, especially now.

What you don't get is that pro-choice people 100% agree with you on this point.

They just don't agree on that they are kids. So invoking baby killing is literally useless. Stop being shocked by this.
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to AGC • 2:27p, 6/30/22
AG
AGC said:
larry culpepper said:
I'm literally responding to your points and questions you posed, and you respond with a condescending, holier-than-thou comment. Are you even interested in this discussion?

I have no idea what kind of work you do but thanks for your service I guess? You also vote for people and support the notion that minor rape victims should be forced to undergo the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth, so forgive me for not being very moved by you patting yourself on the back.


Abortion keeps these girls in bondage; it doesn't free them from it. They can be (and are) pimped out and abused for much longer because of abortion access . It's a shell game you're playing, a Pyrrhic victory.

It's also incredibly myopic and disingenuous to argue that all other abortions should be permitted. The truly caring person would head to the statehouse right now to write a law to protect these girls, not sit around arguing online about how we need 99 more abortions to protect the one.
Again, I am not in favor of all abortions being legal. I have said repeatedly I favor reasonable restrictions.

but I'm still not even convinced conservatives care that much about ending abortion or helping these young women in these life situations. I do think they care about controlling and punishing them for behavior they do not like. If conservatives truly cared about reducing abortions they would focus on improving the education system, promoting comprehensive sex ed, improving contraception access, improving healthcare access for indigent women, and offer paid parental leave for new parents.

The right nearly universally opposes all of these things (if you think i'm wrong, read the TXGOP platform), even though they've been shown time and time again to result in fewer unwanted pregnancies and abortions. It's like you aren't interested at all in trying to understand a pretty complicated issue.

This is why I remain convinced these anti-abortion laws are about punishment and control above all else.
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diehard03
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In reply to AGC • 2:28p, 6/30/22
Quote:
Agreed, it should be scary that so many people consider being human a social construct. I did nazi that coming.

I do enjoy that both sides like to call the other side nazis. Really shows both sides willingness to actually engage on the topic.
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dermdoc
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 2:34p, 6/30/22
AG
larry culpepper said:
This is my problem with conservatism, and particularly Christian conservatism. It's all ME ME ME ME ME. MY RIGHTS. They cannot wrap their head around the idea that there are other people they share a country with. People with different beliefs, different life experiences, different incomes, different backgrounds, different hardships. They just think "this works for me and you will go with it whether you like it or not." No empathy, no understanding at all.

And the events of this past month alone are a very stark reminder of how bad things can get when this group of people gets their way. They govern for themselves and themselves alone. They want you to obey and not question anything.
Do viable babies have rights?

And how does wanting to keep babies alive be all about me? What do I get out of that? Heck, my taxes, charitable contributions, and time spent in charities helping mothers and babies of these situations will go up.

And what about the rule of law? And the Constitution?

Everything you posted was based entirely on emotion. Which is fine but is not the rule of law. And without the rule of law, we are Mad Max.

And I find it ironic that it is obvious that the most selfish folks in this discussion are the moms who use abortion as birth control. They just want to have sex and not be responsible for a human life that can result from that. How selfish is that? All the fun and no responsibility And every study shows that the vast majority of abortions are done for convenience which is a kind way of saying it is all about ME, ME, ME as pertains to the abortress.
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AGC
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In reply to diehard03 • 2:36p, 6/30/22
AG
diehard03 said:
Quote:
Agreed, it should be scary that so many people consider being human a social construct. I did nazi that coming.

I do enjoy that both sides like to call the other side nazis. Really shows both sides willingness to actually engage on the topic.


God's engagement with moloch looked quite a bit different from what the Christian's are doing. We thought you'd approve if anything.
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dermdoc
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In reply to diehard03 • 2:37p, 6/30/22
AG
diehard03 said:
Quote:
Agreed, it should be scary that so many people consider being human a social construct. I did nazi that coming.

I do enjoy that both sides like to call the other side nazis. Really shows both sides willingness to actually engage on the topic.
Never called anyone a nazi.

My view is purely unemotional and based on the rule of law and the Constitution.

The SC decided that abortion is not a Constitutional right. They did not say it was illegal so therefore it is a state issue.

If you want to add a right to abortion amendment to the Constitution, knock yourself out.

So state voters can elect pols that reflect their views and each state can set up abortion laws as stipulated by the state voters.

How can someone not agree with that?
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:43p, 6/30/22
AG
dermdoc said:
larry culpepper said:
This is my problem with conservatism, and particularly Christian conservatism. It's all ME ME ME ME ME. MY RIGHTS. They cannot wrap their head around the idea that there are other people they share a country with. People with different beliefs, different life experiences, different incomes, different backgrounds, different hardships. They just think "this works for me and you will go with it whether you like it or not." No empathy, no understanding at all.

And the events of this past month alone are a very stark reminder of how bad things can get when this group of people gets their way. They govern for themselves and themselves alone. They want you to obey and not question anything.
Do babies have rights?

And how does wanting to keep babies alive be all about me? What do I get out of that? Heck, my taxes, charitable contributions, and time spent in charities helping mothers and babies of these situations will go up.

And what about the rule of law? And the Constitution?

Everything you posted was based entirely on emotion. Which is fine but is not the rule of law. And without the rule of law, we are Mad Max.
I apologize for a slight derail, but I really hope you are not a Trump supporter. Because if you are, I cringe my heart out anytime I see you talk about the "rule of law." I maintain that the "rule of law" applies when it's convenient. One side can violate it as much as they want, but it should be enforced against the other side. but I digress...

I'll just go ahead and end this discussion with you now since I know your position and know any further discussion on this will go in circles: Yes, babies have rights. Babies are human beings. I do not believe a human embryo is a baby and I do not believe rights attach before viability (and as I've explained before, society does not treat embryos/fetuses as humans either).

how you spend your money is your business. But if you are charitable, then good for you. It helps but this is a major problem requiring major solutions.

You accuse me of being emotional but I can turn that around and say that about the anti-abortion side. E.g. "baby killer" comments, talking about how emotionally damaging abortion is, ignoring facts and data about abortion laws and facts that are proven to reduce abortion. Because emotion about abortion being bad trumps all of these facts.
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diehard03
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:45p, 6/30/22
Derm, not everything is a personal comment at you.
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AGC
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 2:50p, 6/30/22
AG
larry culpepper said:
dermdoc said:
larry culpepper said:
This is my problem with conservatism, and particularly Christian conservatism. It's all ME ME ME ME ME. MY RIGHTS. They cannot wrap their head around the idea that there are other people they share a country with. People with different beliefs, different life experiences, different incomes, different backgrounds, different hardships. They just think "this works for me and you will go with it whether you like it or not." No empathy, no understanding at all.

And the events of this past month alone are a very stark reminder of how bad things can get when this group of people gets their way. They govern for themselves and themselves alone. They want you to obey and not question anything.
Do babies have rights?

And how does wanting to keep babies alive be all about me? What do I get out of that? Heck, my taxes, charitable contributions, and time spent in charities helping mothers and babies of these situations will go up.

And what about the rule of law? And the Constitution?

Everything you posted was based entirely on emotion. Which is fine but is not the rule of law. And without the rule of law, we are Mad Max.
I apologize for a slight derail, but I really hope you are not a Trump supporter. Because if you are, I cringe my heart out anytime I see you talk about the "rule of law." I maintain that the "rule of law" applies when it's convenient. One side can violate it as much as they want, but it should be enforced against the other side. but I digress...

I'll just go ahead and end this discussion with you now since I know your position and know any further discussion on this will go in circles: Yes, babies have rights. Babies are human beings. I do not believe a human embryo is a baby and I do not believe rights attach before viability (and as I've explained before, society does not treat embryos/fetuses as humans either).

how you spend your money is your business. But if you are charitable, then good for you. It helps but this is a major problem requiring major solutions.

You accuse me of being emotional but I can turn that around and say that about the anti-abortion side. E.g. "baby killer" comments, talking about how emotionally damaging abortion is, ignoring facts and data about abortion laws and facts that are proven to reduce abortion. Because emotion about abortion being bad trumps all of these facts.


Sadly the government has no answer to any of the questions you're asking. The facts you're purporting don't solve these problems either or we wouldn't see so many abortions. Allowing abortion doesn't fix any of your concerns. None. Zip. Zero. That's how we know it's not about the facts.

Community involvement does though. It requires you to put yourself out there with not just money but time. You have to be present in your neighborhood and know your people if you really feel this much for pregnant mothers struggling with doubt and fear. You can't fix Missouri's problems, or Louisiana's, or Mississippi's. You can work towards fixing Texas' though. But you can't fix your city's problems either; there are simply too many. You need to be rooted to a place to work there. Fix your neighborhood and encourage others to do the same. That's where winning occurs and victory is achievable.
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dermdoc
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 2:52p, 6/30/22
AG
The rule of law and Trump have nothing to do with a discussion on the Constitutional rule of law on abortion.

Total whataboutism and deflection.

When you think life begins and when I think it begins has zero to do with this legal decision.

This decision is whether there is a right to abortion in the US Constitution.

Nothing more, nothing less.

The SC decided by a 6-3 majority that there is no right to abortion in the Constitution.

They did not call abortion illegal they just stated it was not in the Comstitution and therefore not under the auspices of the feds.

All the arguments you mention about rape, poverty, etc. are to be argued at the state level. Decided by who the voters elect.

Why are you against that?



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dermdoc
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In reply to diehard03 • 2:52p, 6/30/22
AG
diehard03 said:
Derm, not everything is a personal comment at you.
Face it, you missed me.

This just seems so logical. And legal.
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dermdoc
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In reply to diehard03 • 3:00p, 6/30/22
AG
diehard03 said:
it shouldn't be. They don't believe its infanticide and they don't think they are killing babies. Making baby killing statements misses the point entirely.
Not if you believe that is the truth.

And you bring up a very good point.

If you believe life begins at conception, then to you it is murder.

If you don't then it is not.

There is really no compromise on that point therefore, the rule of law is what matters. And what is more legal than letting the voters of each state decide?

So legally a case went to the SC and the Court found there was no right o abortion in the Constitution.

So it is up to the states which is legal and logical.

California and NY can allow abortion on demand up to delivery and Texas can rule all abortions illegal.If the voters do not agree, vote in pols that they want.



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nortex97
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In reply to diehard03 • 3:20p, 6/30/22
AG
diehard03 said:
Quote:
Killing kids is morally wrong; further, it's unjustified, disgusting, not in/protected by the US constitution, and there's no reason to tap dance around that for someone else's obtuse sensibilities, especially now.

What you don't get is that pro-choice people 100% agree with you on this point.

They just don't agree on that they are kids. So invoking baby killing is literally useless. Stop being shocked by this.
Useless to what end? I'm not trying to persuade people like MacArthur/larry/sapper etc, and I think it's funny some well-intentioned/bright posters still try to engage in discussion with them about serious matters. They are dishonest at best and largely just argumentative message board posters/outcasts who can't handle the rejection of their views elsewhere.

If God chooses to draw them nearer to Him some day, fine/great, but I will continue to laugh at them, and post here so it isn't just the G&A board, and try to share some philosophy/religion as I see fit. Killing babies is fine by many of their ilk. Yes, that even includes kids born alive.

I am still shocked at the banal depravity a total separation from God can lead to, and while sometimes it is tragic/sad, it is also sometimes funny to read, which is part of the reason I do come back to this board. They live in their own make believe worlds, with their own moralities, legal systems, privacy 'rights' etc.;





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barbacoa taco
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In reply to dermdoc • 3:29p, 6/30/22
AG
sorry, couldnt resist on the whataboutism. it was just so ridiculous I had to point it out.

I get it, there's no right to abortion in the constitution. There's also no right to marriage, having kids, sex, having a job, or living in College Station, Texas. But these are all things we treat as "rights" we have under personal freedom and privacy.

And my position is abortion should be protected as a privacy right, under the same logic contraceptives are protected.

As for your "if you dont like it vote for someone else." oh trust me, I will and I already do.
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dermdoc
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In reply to nortex97 • 3:30p, 6/30/22
AG
You are correct. Without the Holy Spirit, man is truly reprobate.

I pray the Lord will open their eyes to the truth.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to AGC • 3:37p, 6/30/22
AGC said:
Sapper Redux said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
Sapper Redux said:
Zobel said:
I reject the entire premise of your argument, why would I bother answering? People are open to discuss exceptions for the exceptions.

Pro-abortion people on this thread won't talk about anything except the fact that because the exceptions exist and cover "thousands" we can't even begin to deal with the 600,000+ that were happening every year.


I'm asking if under your new antiabortion regime if women who are capable of bearing children should be denied certain treatments and drugs that would harm any potential fetus. You're ignoring that. Also, you're demanding I accept that a zygote is the same as an adult human. It isn't.

I'm losing my mind.

No one has or was or will be asking for that.
No one is telling women of child bearing age to stop drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, eating tuna either.


If you are doing things that might get you pregnant, you should be hyper aware of whether or not you are pregnant. It is not that expensive to pee on a stick every once in a while and if you do something irresponsible Plan B is still legal in all 50 states.

The law in Missouri is poorly written, but in no way is anyone going to actually get in trouble for removing an ectopic pregnancy. In fact, they had wording that was ectopic pregnancy related and removed it because it was stupid.



The wording from the Attorney General's letter has caused a lot of problems for ED and OBGYN docs in Missouri. Sorry you want to think it's cut and dry, but it really, really isn't. And based on the definitions used by people like Zobel and Derm, Plan B is an abortion that kills a human with full rights. We're already seeing states make moves to make things like Plan B illegal.
If it is not cut and dry, that is the fault of the states as it is their responsibility now. If the people of Missouri or any other state want to change the laws, they can vote for people who will do so.

Wonderful concept envisioned by the Founders and the Constitution.


Never mind those harmed in the meantime.
At least they are not "snuffed out" like those poor babies.

What a twisted, evil view.
If I don't agree that a zygote is a baby, and don't agree with the very premise of your complaint, I'm evil and twisted. Got it. Good to know. I'll go on being evil and twisted, I guess. You keep minimizing the lives of women.


Human is a social construct again.


Claiming personhood starts at conception is a philosophical opinion. One not shared by a large number of people and religions. Your position is a belief, not a fact.
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nortex97
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 3:42p, 6/30/22
AG
Even under Roe, which is no longer the law, the court held that the state had a compelling interest that outweighed privacy (of the 'mother'/murderer) in preventing abortion, once viability was achieved.

Your much-repeated claim to a tremendous privacy interest is belied by the case law around abortion, including Roe itself.
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AggieRain
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In reply to nortex97 • 3:46p, 6/30/22
AG
Quote:
They are dishonest at best and largely just argumentative message board posters/outcasts who can't handle the rejection of their views elsewhere.
EOT
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diehard03
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In reply to nortex97 • 3:49p, 6/30/22
oh, you're just here to laugh at people.

Gotcha.
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Dilettante
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In reply to diehard03 • 3:54p, 6/30/22
He's here for the same reason as the people he's talking to.
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