Please show me where I've said that? If you can't have this conversation without misrepresentation that's ok, we don't need to.

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Please show me where I've said that? If you can't have this conversation without misrepresentation that's ok, we don't need to.

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I can only go by what you've posted and tried to interpret the best i can. I have no interest or agenda in intentionally misrepresenting you to "win" something on a message board.

People have offered suggestions and you've disregarded them because you don't think it would have stopped 2 school shootings...nevermind the countless other gun deaths.

we can only interpret your standard as "all or nothing" because that's what you've presented to us.

I cant bring myself to watch that.

It is sad that this forum of group-think won't tolerate dissenting opinions.

I am unsurprised.

Bless your hearts!

diehard03 said:

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Please show me where I've said that? If you can't have this conversation without misrepresentation that's ok, we don't need to.

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I can only go by what you've posted and tried to interpret the best i can. I have no interest or agenda in intentionally misrepresenting you to "win" something on a message board.

People have offered suggestions and you've disregarded them because you don't think it would have stopped 2 school shootings...nevermind the countless other gun deaths.

we can only interpret your standard as "all or nothing" because that's what you've presented to us.

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Accusations of trying to 'win' online debates on forums? I understand why you and others perceive me that way but he and I are dissimilar in style and reputation (least of all substance). He offered a gracious exit and you've turned it back on him by doubling down and saying it's ok to misinterpret him because your desire for information or a response that you personally deem adequate isn't satisfied. This is not the way.

Were my posts deleted? I can't imagine why.

Macarthur said:

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There is one thing in all this that, for whatever reason, keeps sticking with me.

Body Armor.

Can we all, at least, agree that someone buying a few guns, tons of ammo and body armor should cause some sort of red flag of attention?

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Did he have body armor? From an AP article:

" Officers found one of the rifles in Ramos' truck, the other in the school, according to the briefing given to lawmakers. Ramos was wearing a tactical vest, but it had no hardened body-armor plates inside, lawmakers were told. He also dropped a backpack containing several magazines full of ammunition near the school entrance."

This is why we wait to make decisions instead of just doing something. Your idea wouldn't have triggered any red flags.

I absolutely hate to make an abortion comparison but this doesn't work with abortion. I've always been opposed to using graphic images in protest for a myriad of reasons. much more bad results than gold.

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Accusations of trying to 'win' online debates on forums? I understand why you and others perceive me that way but he and I are dissimilar in style and reputation (least of all substance). He offered a gracious exit and you've turned it back on him by doubling down and saying it's ok to misinterpret him because your desire for information or a response that you personally deem adequate isn't satisfied. This is not the way.

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Easy, Internet Sherriff.

I did not accuse him of trying to win online debates. I am only establishing that I am not intentionally misrepresenting him to do so since that was his charge to me...and now your charge to me.

I am only summarizing what I see. He is welcome to correct where I am wrong and provide support. He is also welcome to ignore it and keep it moving. We owe each other nothing and will continue to engage on other various topics here.

I do see a flaw in assuming that a single case breaking effectivity, which another posted noted as well...but this is not a case a "response I deem adequate". he has yet to give a response at all on the matter...which again, is his prerogative.

It would be no different than releasing pictures from the death camps, thosr picture of the people jumping from the towers on 9/11, etc. The fact that you think that releasing them shows some kind of defect on my side just proves how effective they would be.

Duncan Idaho said:

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It would be no different than releasing pictures from the death camps, thosr picture of the people jumping from the towers on 9/11, etc. The fact that you think that releasing them shows some kind of defect on my side just proves how effective they would be.

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No, it proves that I recognize the trauma it would cause to society by being freely accessible and pushed into every news feed possible to achieve said action. Whether I like it or not lots of elementary schoolers have smart phones. They have no business seeing those photos and it's irresponsible and abusive of parents and adults to shove that responsibility on them, to be able to process what they're seeing, respond in any meaningful way to the call to action, and expect them to be able to be healthy adults. It's bull*****

The shooter was inside Robb Elementary School for 40 minutes or more. Meanwhile, witnesses say police stood around outside, preventing parents from going in #ReasonRoundup https://t.co/fpb8x3FXGo

— reason (@reason) May 26, 2022

AGC said:

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Macarthur said:

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There is one thing in all this that, for whatever reason, keeps sticking with me.

Body Armor.

Can we all, at least, agree that someone buying a few guns, tons of ammo and body armor should cause some sort of red flag of attention?

---

Did he have body armor? From an AP article:

" Officers found one of the rifles in Ramos' truck, the other in the school, according to the briefing given to lawmakers. Ramos was wearing a tactical vest, but it had no hardened body-armor plates inside, lawmakers were told. He also dropped a backpack containing several magazines full of ammunition near the school entrance."

This is why we wait to make decisions instead of just doing something. Your idea wouldn't have triggered any red flags.

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Yeah, it looks like he had one of those vests on that you can put a plate in, but didn't actually have armor or the plate in them. It appears they were reporting on that visual.

I will say that even with the armor aside, an 18 year old purchasing 2 ARs and almost 400 rounds still should be a trigger even without the body armor issue.

Duncan Idaho said:

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It worked with Emmett Till. I disagree with swimmer, it was effective with later term abortions and it solidified a split in the minds of most of the public's acceptance between early stage abortion (being pretty much ok with) and late stage abortions (being overwhelmingly against)

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Oh no we get it. You only care about efficacy.

We can discuss policy without traumatizing the populace.

schmendeler said:

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The shooter was inside Robb Elementary School for 40 minutes or more. Meanwhile, witnesses say police stood around outside, preventing parents from going in #ReasonRoundup https://t.co/fpb8x3FXGo

— reason (@reason) May 26, 2022

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This story line is really disturbing. I hope more comes out to clarify this timeline.

Yeah it looks really bad at the moment

Macarthur said:

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AGC said:

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Macarthur said:

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There is one thing in all this that, for whatever reason, keeps sticking with me.

Body Armor.

Can we all, at least, agree that someone buying a few guns, tons of ammo and body armor should cause some sort of red flag of attention?

---

Did he have body armor? From an AP article:

" Officers found one of the rifles in Ramos' truck, the other in the school, according to the briefing given to lawmakers. Ramos was wearing a tactical vest, but it had no hardened body-armor plates inside, lawmakers were told. He also dropped a backpack containing several magazines full of ammunition near the school entrance."

This is why we wait to make decisions instead of just doing something. Your idea wouldn't have triggered any red flags.

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Yeah, it looks like he had one of those vests on that you can put a plate in, but didn't actually have armor or the plate in them. It appears they were reporting on that visual.

I will say that even with the armor aside, an 18 year old purchasing 2 ARs and almost 400 rounds still should be a trigger even without the body armor issue.

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Why? Because you don't like it? That's not a lot of ammo.

I believe it was a standoff - he went in, shot up the school and then barricaded himself inside. it took 40 min to resolve itself.

it's weird to present this story like police were prevent parents from going inside to break up a gun fight.

I hope that's the case. There are reports that there could be gun shots heard during this period of time.

No you don't. You only care that your preferred narrative is facilitated.

Care for actual children, or law enforcement's response, is clearly disregarded in this thread. What could possibly have made law enforcement hesitant to respond forcefully to a shooter over the past 10 years? Was a social worker not available in this small town to go in and talk the shooter into surrendering?

diehard03 said:

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I believe it was a standoff - he went in, shot up the school and then barricaded himself inside. it took 40 min to resolve itself.

it's weird to present this story like police were prevent parents from going inside to break up a gun fight.

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Yeah, sounds like he was locked in a room and they were evacuating everyone else out of there.

Ignore function is great!

AGC said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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It worked with Emmett Till. I disagree with swimmer, it was effective with later term abortions and it solidified a split in the minds of most of the public's acceptance between early stage abortion (being pretty much ok with) and late stage abortions (being overwhelmingly against)

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Oh no we get it. You only care about efficacy.

We can discuss policy without traumatizing the populace.

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So just to be clear.

You are also against showing any atrocities committed by Islamic terrorist? The Chinese against their people? The abortion pictures swimmer brought up? Depiction of Crucifixion? Pictures of gun violence? Pictures of drug use? Pictures of chemical warfare? Etc etc etc etc etc

I am sorry I don't believe that we should treat society like a bunch of snowflakes when discussing policy but should use the information available to have that discussion

DPS Director Steve McGraw said twice that the cops were the ones who barricaded the shooter into a classroom.

That contradicts previous statements by other DPS spox, who said the gunman barricaded himself and immediately began shooting kids. https://t.co/OZO4JOJcwk

— Tess Owen (@misstessowen) May 25, 2022

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People have offered suggestions and you've disregarded them because you don't think it would have stopped 2 school shootings...nevermind the countless other gun deaths.

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I'm not sure why posts were deleted, but the guy said we should limit the purchase of long guns and shotguns to a certain age. I am open to this, but I am not certain of how effective it would be, because in several (most?) cases the weapons were purchased by adults. How many school shootings would have been prevented by this approach? None? All? And what is the burden associated with it? Pointing out two examples I knew off the top of my head is not dismissal, it's discussion.

The second he suggested was to hold parents accountable for their children's crimes, or create additional burdens on parents for securing guns. In the discussion of this, I'm looking at it from a general principle perspective. The reason for this approach is we already have laws that follow this principle - criminal negligence. I would like to know if these laws are insufficient, or if they're not applied. If we don't think they're sufficient, i.e., we are not only interested in punishing unacceptable inaction, but we also want to make some additional positive requirements, we should be clear on that. For example, why horrible but nevertheless infrequent (statistically) school shootings rise to this level, but less shocking but equally horrible texting and alcohol related deaths do not. You may remember the original premise here was being tolerant of death.

But even further, I'm not sure that doesn't start to look like familial or kin punishment, sippenhaft, or a kind of collective punishment. Collective punishment is not legal, criminal responsibility in this country is attributed to individuals. When you start suggesting idea that skirt the borders of things we have a firm tradition rejecting, you should take that as a caution that you may be on the wrong track. That's why I asked if that's what he meant.

If you see my responses as all or nothing I can't help you. Again, the only using binary language between us here is you.

nortex97 said:

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No you don't. You only care that your preferred narrative is facilitated.

Care for actual children, or law enforcement's response, is clearly disregarded in this thread. What could possibly have made law enforcement hesitant to respond forcefully to a shooter over the past 10 years? Was a social worker not available in this small town to go in and talk the shooter into surrendering?

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Beyond that, this is all performative art. It's what one has to post in our society to show that they're part of it (which ironically doesn't mean inhabiting a physical place). None of the people on this forum are rushing out to volunteer locally at after school programs, to be court appointed advocates for abused children, or to foster. They're not looking to solve the problem as I said early on. They want someone else to act and do so in a manner that renders the tragedy manageable, minor, 'barely an inconvenience'. No one's going to walk their neighborhood and build relationships with their neighbors so that when something happens that can provide actual support or care. They're not going to become teachers. And we're definitely not going to address family and societal structure that abandons children to their own devices (literally and figuratively).