Duncan Idaho said:

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Macarthur said:

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nortex97 said:

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Wow, I'm impressed with your commitment to the cause.

Coronaviruses are seasonal, btw, so it will be fading now that herd immunity is essentially reached over the next 60-90 days throughout the northern hemisphere.

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Not sure what you're getting at, but yes, it does appear we are going to get at herd immunity. It only took us almost 1 million deaths to get there. And countless long covid scenarios that we still don't fully know the ramifications.

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The problem is that due to how contagious it is, how easily it mutates and how our immune system typically treats Coronaviruses, Covid Herd Immunity is going to be a lot closer to Flu herd immunity than Chickenpox herd immunity.

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Fact check, false. You guys kill me. Seriously, love you guys.

Macarthur said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Wrangler said:

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I know quite a few folks that used to attend church regularly before COVID started, but now skip church using COVID as the excuse. They won't go to church, but continue to go to work, the grocery store, etc. Guess they were looking for an excuse to come along. Just an observation.

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Pretty sure it's hard to eat without a job and without getting groceries. I'm not sure standing indoors in often poorly ventilated buildings while dozens of people sing at the top of their lungs is the definition of caution.

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Unless you're in a very at risk group at this point (that can't get the vaccine), this is the very definition of living in fear.

To the original comments.... my diocese just reinstated the Sunday mass 'obligation'. I think it will take a long time (if ever) to get attendance back to where it was. Too many people have gotten comfortable not going to church for it to change soon.

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Baloney.

Friday, I think it was, we had over 3000 covid deaths in the US. That's a 9/11.

And not just using the death metric, how about people that don't get time off but have to leave their job because they're positive. That's 5 days, best case. That's a full week's paycheck. I can't believe some people don't get this.

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How many of those were 80+ with 4 or more co comorbidities? CDC says 75+%. They didn't tell us the other 25%. Probably older with three or more of I had to guess.

Flu kills a lot of people this time of year every year.

You can sell fear. Most aren't buying.

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Flu doesn't kill this many people unless you're dealing with a 1918-level virus. It's amazing how quickly people who want churches full are willing to discount the actual people who are supposed to fill those churches.

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We're not discounting anyone, we just live in different worlds. Conservative aging congregations were beating down the doors to open back up after a week or two. Liberal ones are still mask on / mask off and shutting down with flare ups while telling people to watch from home. And there are big ones stuck in the middle but even those seem to stratify as I know of one with a mask required service while the rest are wide open.

Edit: The individual approach where people do what they're comfortable with allows them most flourishing. The other approach of fear and caution takes hostages of those who are healthy and willing.

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The individual approach seems to ignore how viruses and other pathogens spread.

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Only for those who live in a bubble. You don't. You know better. I could trot out the COVID polling which shows quite clearly the disconnect between actual risk and perceived risk. The perceived risk, especially for young people, was multiples higher but they now live in the fearful environment that's been created rather than getting the virus through normal interaction and being safer than those with only the jab. What's been done to them with the constant death counts is a travesty and it continues unabated this thread with 9/11 comparisons. We shouldn't have taken hostages and we need to stop doing it.

Edit: Immunocompromised people are always at risk and I say that as someone with a relative who has a rare autoimmune disease. I monitor my own health and that of my family for him but we need robust immune systems to protect them which doesn't come from locking society up.

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I have kids and I'm around young people all the time. I think they understand Covid quite well. What they understand is that while Covid is highly unlikely to affect them, it could really be awful for their sick parents or grandparents, and I think they are on board with the public health implications and doing their part to help.

Who I think the problem group is the middle aged, spoiled Karens and Kyles that simply can't have their life inconvenienced.

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Nope.

~60% of Americans think the chances somebody with Covid must be hospitalized are ~10x higher than they actually are

Survey by Gallup and Franklin Templeton pic.twitter.com/RgyxiJmcfD

— Eli Klein (@TheEliKlein) March 20, 2021

This is old but it underscores what's playing out in every thread here too.

Macarthur said:

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AGC said:

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Please give us a benchmark, a measure of success. When is it ok to go back to life as it was throughout human history? We can talk death stats all day long. What's the goal?

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This is the really weird thing, to me.

What exactly is going on in your life that isn't 'normal'? I go to restaurants (not as often as I used to but that's a choice). I go to the movies (again not as often). I'm going to a concert next week.

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We've always been at war with OSHAnia! Mask rations have been raised to several N95s per week! There have even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother!

Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Macarthur said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Wrangler said:

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I know quite a few folks that used to attend church regularly before COVID started, but now skip church using COVID as the excuse. They won't go to church, but continue to go to work, the grocery store, etc. Guess they were looking for an excuse to come along. Just an observation.

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Pretty sure it's hard to eat without a job and without getting groceries. I'm not sure standing indoors in often poorly ventilated buildings while dozens of people sing at the top of their lungs is the definition of caution.

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Unless you're in a very at risk group at this point (that can't get the vaccine), this is the very definition of living in fear.

To the original comments.... my diocese just reinstated the Sunday mass 'obligation'. I think it will take a long time (if ever) to get attendance back to where it was. Too many people have gotten comfortable not going to church for it to change soon.

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Baloney.

Friday, I think it was, we had over 3000 covid deaths in the US. That's a 9/11.

And not just using the death metric, how about people that don't get time off but have to leave their job because they're positive. That's 5 days, best case. That's a full week's paycheck. I can't believe some people don't get this.

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How many of those were 80+ with 4 or more co comorbidities? CDC says 75+%. They didn't tell us the other 25%. Probably older with three or more of I had to guess.

Flu kills a lot of people this time of year every year.

You can sell fear. Most aren't buying.

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Flu doesn't kill this many people unless you're dealing with a 1918-level virus. It's amazing how quickly people who want churches full are willing to discount the actual people who are supposed to fill those churches.

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We're not discounting anyone, we just live in different worlds. Conservative aging congregations were beating down the doors to open back up after a week or two. Liberal ones are still mask on / mask off and shutting down with flare ups while telling people to watch from home. And there are big ones stuck in the middle but even those seem to stratify as I know of one with a mask required service while the rest are wide open.

Edit: The individual approach where people do what they're comfortable with allows them most flourishing. The other approach of fear and caution takes hostages of those who are healthy and willing.

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The individual approach seems to ignore how viruses and other pathogens spread.

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Only for those who live in a bubble. You don't. You know better. I could trot out the COVID polling which shows quite clearly the disconnect between actual risk and perceived risk. The perceived risk, especially for young people, was multiples higher but they now live in the fearful environment that's been created rather than getting the virus through normal interaction and being safer than those with only the jab. What's been done to them with the constant death counts is a travesty and it continues unabated this thread with 9/11 comparisons. We shouldn't have taken hostages and we need to stop doing it.

Edit: Immunocompromised people are always at risk and I say that as someone with a relative who has a rare autoimmune disease. I monitor my own health and that of my family for him but we need robust immune systems to protect them which doesn't come from locking society up.

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I have kids and I'm around young people all the time. I think they understand Covid quite well. What they understand is that while Covid is highly unlikely to affect them, it could really be awful for their sick parents or grandparents, and I think they are on board with the public health implications and doing their part to help.

Who I think the problem group is the middle aged, spoiled Karens and Kyles that simply can't have their life inconvenienced.

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Nope.

~60% of Americans think the chances somebody with Covid must be hospitalized are ~10x higher than they actually are

Survey by Gallup and Franklin Templeton pic.twitter.com/RgyxiJmcfD

— Eli Klein (@TheEliKlein) March 20, 2021

This is old but it underscores what's playing out in every thread here too.

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5% is millions of people and still underplays the risk of long-term autoimmune issues. Death is far from the only danger from Covid.

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The point is that the perception is disconnected from reality but policy isn't being based on reality. It's being based on perception and that's why you're taking hostages instead. The immunocompromised should behave as suits them best and take their own risks. If they have family members that don't care about risk then avoid them. This is not a new way of life for these people, it is their everyday reality.

Macarthur said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Macarthur said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Wrangler said:

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I know quite a few folks that used to attend church regularly before COVID started, but now skip church using COVID as the excuse. They won't go to church, but continue to go to work, the grocery store, etc. Guess they were looking for an excuse to come along. Just an observation.

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Pretty sure it's hard to eat without a job and without getting groceries. I'm not sure standing indoors in often poorly ventilated buildings while dozens of people sing at the top of their lungs is the definition of caution.

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Unless you're in a very at risk group at this point (that can't get the vaccine), this is the very definition of living in fear.

To the original comments.... my diocese just reinstated the Sunday mass 'obligation'. I think it will take a long time (if ever) to get attendance back to where it was. Too many people have gotten comfortable not going to church for it to change soon.

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Baloney.

Friday, I think it was, we had over 3000 covid deaths in the US. That's a 9/11.

And not just using the death metric, how about people that don't get time off but have to leave their job because they're positive. That's 5 days, best case. That's a full week's paycheck. I can't believe some people don't get this.

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How many of those were 80+ with 4 or more co comorbidities? CDC says 75+%. They didn't tell us the other 25%. Probably older with three or more of I had to guess.

Flu kills a lot of people this time of year every year.

You can sell fear. Most aren't buying.

---

Flu doesn't kill this many people unless you're dealing with a 1918-level virus. It's amazing how quickly people who want churches full are willing to discount the actual people who are supposed to fill those churches.

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We're not discounting anyone, we just live in different worlds. Conservative aging congregations were beating down the doors to open back up after a week or two. Liberal ones are still mask on / mask off and shutting down with flare ups while telling people to watch from home. And there are big ones stuck in the middle but even those seem to stratify as I know of one with a mask required service while the rest are wide open.

Edit: The individual approach where people do what they're comfortable with allows them most flourishing. The other approach of fear and caution takes hostages of those who are healthy and willing.

---

The individual approach seems to ignore how viruses and other pathogens spread.

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Only for those who live in a bubble. You don't. You know better. I could trot out the COVID polling which shows quite clearly the disconnect between actual risk and perceived risk. The perceived risk, especially for young people, was multiples higher but they now live in the fearful environment that's been created rather than getting the virus through normal interaction and being safer than those with only the jab. What's been done to them with the constant death counts is a travesty and it continues unabated this thread with 9/11 comparisons. We shouldn't have taken hostages and we need to stop doing it.

Edit: Immunocompromised people are always at risk and I say that as someone with a relative who has a rare autoimmune disease. I monitor my own health and that of my family for him but we need robust immune systems to protect them which doesn't come from locking society up.

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I have kids and I'm around young people all the time. I think they understand Covid quite well. What they understand is that while Covid is highly unlikely to affect them, it could really be awful for their sick parents or grandparents, and I think they are on board with the public health implications and doing their part to help.

Who I think the problem group is the middle aged, spoiled Karens and Kyles that simply can't have their life inconvenienced.

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Nope.

~60% of Americans think the chances somebody with Covid must be hospitalized are ~10x higher than they actually are

Survey by Gallup and Franklin Templeton pic.twitter.com/RgyxiJmcfD

— Eli Klein (@TheEliKlein) March 20, 2021

This is old but it underscores what's playing out in every thread here too.

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5% is millions of people and still underplays the risk of long-term autoimmune issues. Death is far from the only danger from Covid.

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The point is that the perception is disconnected from reality but policy isn't being based on reality. It's being based on perception and that's why you're taking hostages instead. The immunocompromised should behave as suits them best and take their own risks. If they have family members that don't care about risk then avoid them. This is not a new way of life for these people, it is their everyday reality.

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That post in interesting and I suspect there are some significant reasons for the general public being misinformed. One thing i find interesting (and one person commented in the thread) that 51% if Republicans think 20-50% require hospitalization and yet Republicans overwhelmingly reject Covid restrictions....what does that say about those people? Geeze.

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Everyone's perception is wildly off. That's what that poll says. We should govern based on real, actual risk. People who are insulated from the consequences of a risky decision don't make better decisions. COVID isn't something you can trace to a single person to blame if somebody dies; that's one of the big problems with the idea of blame and who should engage in what behaviors. The nature of it makes basic living impossible to do safely if you're immunocompromised and think it will kill you. So let everyone who's safe go about their business instead of talking about 9/11s.

Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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"Taking hostages"? The disconnect between rhetoric and reality when it comes to preserving life is amazing sometimes.

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Locking young children with little to no risk at home and keeping them there until x% is vaccinated or cases are below y isn't taking hostages?

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Who is currently "locking them at home"? I live in a pretty blue state and we have in-person schools. The only difference is that the kids wear masks. And it's caused zero issues. The only people who care are a few psycho adults.

The problem with a VIRUS is that it SPREADS FROM PERSON TO PERSON. That gives it opportunities to mutate and opportunities to attack the vulnerable. No one that I'm aware of lives in this world you apparently believes exists where they don't ever go out or ever engage in risk calculations. There are ways to minimize risk that take into account your neighbors and family who are at risk from a deadly or life-altering virus while still engaging in basic activities. Many people may think singing in church or standing close together at the altar or in pews is a little too risky right now. That's not "cowardly" or "taking hostages." It's people trying to do the best they can for themselves and their community. And it isn't always going to make sense or be the best decision because people aren't all-knowing.

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Again, what's the goal? What's the bar? At what point do we go back to the way we were living as a whole? I mean if we're looking for each incremental life saved surely there's more we could be doing right? There's always more.

AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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"Taking hostages"? The disconnect between rhetoric and reality when it comes to preserving life is amazing sometimes.

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Locking young children with little to no risk at home and keeping them there until x% is vaccinated or cases are below y isn't taking hostages?

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Again, this is distorted, IMO. Everyone has known pretty much from the get go that kids were not as affected by Covid. And none of us like remote learning.

It's the ability of those classrooms to be a petri dish for the spread and them to bring it home to others. Also, teachers in the US are almost 1/3 50 years old and over. about 19% of that above 55. We have districts now in SA having to shut down due to shortages.

It's not just about the kids and it's not JUST about death.

https://xkcd.com/2557/

Duncan Idaho said:

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Fact checked. you're false. No backies. Locked. Infinity.

Sorry was that too mature and nuanced of a response?

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LOL, no, not locked. Omicron is 80 percent vaccinated. Hmmm....

Mass formation psychosis

— Carlos Toraño (@catorano) January 24, 2022

You are on that side, got it.

Sitting US Senator Rand Paul talked to @clayandbuck last week about covid and masks, and YouTube is censoring it- listen to the interview herehttps://t.co/jdi1Zz82dR

— Buck Sexton (@BuckSexton) January 24, 2022

Washington D.C. pic.twitter.com/6ZvjLv2jMx

— Wittgenstein (@backtolife_2019) January 23, 2022

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I live in a pretty blue state and we have in-person schools. The only difference is that the kids wear masks. And it's caused zero issues.

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I know we have strayed off course here, but I am in the same boat and you can't say zero issues.

Kids don't wear masks well enough to have a substantial contribution to transmission rates and we have no idea the social cost of their lack of understanding trying to teach someone in a mask. If we can barely understand the cashier at the grocery store, our kids aren't learning anywhere near the same as a maskless environment.

it literally is the cure is worse than the disease.

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They're fine. Anecdotal, but I've yet to hear one child once complain that they can't understand their teacher. At this point, I feel like people are creating reasons to dislike masks because they've tied them into their political beliefs. Given that well over 800,000 have died, include plenty of teachers and school support staff, I find the idea that mitigating the spread in some way is worse than the deadly pathogen rather hard to believe.

And masks do help reduce transmission rates in schools:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.780039/full

Duncan Idaho said:

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https://xkcd.com/2557/

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Similar vibe:

Couldn't agree more, appreciate the insightful comments!

You do realize that all of that proves my point.

Like the flu (as opposed to chickenpox) herd immunity for covid within any population will be transient at best.

And none of the information you provided refutes the three reasons I said herd immunity for covid will not be like herd immunity for chickenpox.


I'd also pause on using Rand Paul as an appeal to authority when he had to go create his own certification board because he thought the existing certification boards requirements were challenging

Hospitalization rates are down - especially for those vaccinated and/or previously infected. I would venture to say they are approaching flu-like rates - at most - again for those who are vaccinated (which is the vast majority of the country).

If you're vaccinated and/or previously infected, and not immunocompromised, there's no excuse to miss church. The good news is that this Sunday my n=1 anecdotal observation was that the pews were as full as I've seen in a good while.

Quote:

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They're fine. Anecdotal, but I've yet to hear one child once complain that they can't understand their teacher. At this point, I feel like people are creating reasons to dislike masks because they've tied them into their political beliefs. Given that well over 800,000 have died, include plenty of teachers and school support staff, I find the idea that mitigating the spread in some way is worse than the deadly pathogen rather hard to believe.

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Of course, every parent knows that children always speak up when they are nervous or don't know something. They are great at advocating for themselves from kindergarten on.

I have no political connection here and gladly wear a mask myself to abide by our local ordinances. I appreciate the fact that it has a great ancillary benefit of giving people a reason to give us all more space and makes people with colds not go out and infect others. But I also know how much harder it is communicate.

They are also missing out on important facial cues. Children are absolutely resilient, but it's silly to just say they will be fine. There will be an affect on this that will reverberate through the whole generation.

Quote:

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And masks do help reduce transmission rates in schools:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.780039/full

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[url=https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.780039/full][/url]
Statistical analysis on a dataset with little regard to observing the classroom and determining if other behavior elements are at play...and it was taken on pre-omnicron variants...which I could see having a greater effect.

let's also add in that, at least in my area, kids are going through the normal non-COVID cold spreading...so transmission is absolutely happening. Obviously, on more easily transmissible colds. But, given the fact that subsequent variants are looking more transmissible, the masks will be less and less effective. If you want to be technically correct for internet points, I will give it to you.

Anyway, i feel we've taken it way off the R&P track now.

Why do you have to be physically in the building if you're still attending the service?

What if I attend a church with multiple campuses and I don't know anyone at the specific service at the specific campus I attend and the sermons it streamed from the main campus...does that count? The same as going to the main campus with the live service? or only as much as being home and steaming? Or somewhere in between?

powerbelly said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Why do you have to be physically in the building if you're still attending the service?

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Participation in the Eucharist requires being physically present.

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Okay. Is there some kind of timing requirement? Always seemed denomination-dependent and not exactly specified in the Bible.

Sapper Redux said:

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powerbelly said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Why do you have to be physically in the building if you're still attending the service?

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Participation in the Eucharist requires being physically present.

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Okay. Is there some kind of timing requirement? Always seemed denomination-dependent and not exactly specified in the Bible.

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Even the laziest evangelical who doesn't believe in the metaphysical presence knows the 'where two or more are gathered in my name' tripe. At least give us a good show next time.

AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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powerbelly said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Why do you have to be physically in the building if you're still attending the service?

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Participation in the Eucharist requires being physically present.

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Okay. Is there some kind of timing requirement? Always seemed denomination-dependent and not exactly specified in the Bible.

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Even the laziest evangelical who doesn't believe in the metaphysician presence knows the 'where two or more are gathered in my name' tripe. At least give us a good show next time.

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How is that not achieved virtually? Do you have to share pathogens in order to attend a service?